We have too many 2/3 players.

[Guest]

Toni/CC/Ira/Glover/DJ/JT on occasion.

We have too many of these guys.

It's time to really define things and make some moves.

First off:

JT has to be a 1 and concentrate on that.

We will win nothing with Ira and CC as our Sf. It's good that Ira can play some defense but offensively, he's a liability. It's revisiting Corbin.

Toni is a great player to have around but:

1. He's not the future.

2. He's injured too much.

Glover is a SG. We need to let him stay there.

DJ. DJ could be the SF we had hoped he would become. I am encouraged with what I have heard about his weight gain. Now, he needs the first step of James Worthy.

Now, if I had my way, the depth Chart at SF would be:

DJ/Toni/ (CC or Ira).

That means that if I had my way we would fiind a SG.

Here's some names:

Dickerson, Hughes, Crawford, E. Jones, Kittles, Leonard, J. Jackson, Maggette, D. Anderson.

Now from that list... Here's the ones I like:

Hughes, D. ANderson, Jones.

The reason I like these is because they could be easier to get.

Huges = Vaughn + CC.

Jones/Filler = Nazr + Ira + Hendu. Maybe??

Anderson = Nazr.

Possibly the best deal is getting Anderson.

We would then have:

JT/DD

Anderson/Glover/Ira

DJ/Toni/CC

SAR/Hendu

Theo/Smith

The reason why Derrick Anderson is because he's a scorer. He can put up about 15 ppg with our squad... Which is all we would need.

His Injury history isn't that bad. I think he would make us better.

[chillzatl]

saying we'll never win anything with Newbill is a crock. Every team needs someone in their starting lineup who doesn't need the ball, can score when needed and plays their a** off for 48 minutes. The lakers are stocked with those players. As are the spurs, kings, Nets, etc. You DON'T win without them. It doesn't matter that he plays SF, that's meaningless. If he puts in 11-14 ppg, that's all we need. If we found someone who is clearly better, who also gave the energy and defense then yes, we'd be stupid not to jump on it. But to say we'll never win anything with him in there extremely premature.

Before you go changing things around, changing what worked for 1/2 of last season. Give it some time and see what Ira can do. He proved that he's a good "when called on" scorer and as the rumors have it he's out working on his shot all summer. He's seen a role that he can succeed in and he's improving himself in the areas that need it the most. He shot a high % last year and if he improves even slightly he'll bring more to the role than Ty Corbin ever could.

[Guest]

Secondly Ira doesn't compare to ANYONE on the Laker team. Ira's offense is.... If i get a rebound, maybe I can get a putback.

Other than that, Ira Sucks offensively. He's not a scoring threat.

Similar to Ty Corbin. Ty was a guy who played good defense and it won him a starting position.

However, when the games got important... Smart teams played off of Corbin defensively and shut down Mookie and Smitty.

The same thing will occur with Ira. Teams will dare Ira to become a scorer I don't see it in him to be one.

Bottom LINE.....

If All you want to do is make a playoff appearance and save the franchise money... Then Let Ira stay as the starting SF.

However, if we want to challenge for a title this yr, next yr, and for yrs to come... We need to make some well thought out moves for a SF who can score and take some of the pressure off of SAR and JT.

The other thing is this:

If JT or SAR gets injured...

We automatically become a 65 ppg team.

There is no doubting that...

And as I have said before...

What good is a defensive player when other teams can easily shut down your offense??

[Guest]

I agree, Ira is a similar player to the older Corbin that we had. However, I feel he fits this team very well. Corbin wasn't really surrounded by the type offensive threats that we have now in JT and Shareef. Smitty could shoot but Mookie was a bricklayer as was most of the rest of our offense. Ira is more athletic than Corbin was by that period of his career and Ira seems to have a great nack of moving without the ball. If we do have a problem against certain teams we can always just pull Ira for a more offensive player.

As far as losing Shareef or JT, I do agree that if that happened we probably then would not be able to start Ira. Hopefully Toni could bring us some of the lost offense and at least we do have credible backups we could employ, that's one thing I really like about the Dickau draft, he brings offense to the point like JT does.

I'd like to see us pull off a big trade but either way I'd keep Ira. I think he was a lucky find for us last year and I'd sign him up longterm and have at least to call on for that occasionally needed defensive surge, say if Kobe or TMac are running wild on DJ, etc.

[Guest]

I would rather have Mike Miller then than D. Anderson. Miller and DJ in the starting lineup would put a strain on many teams since both are 6'9'', athletic, and have range. Newbel then off the bench would be nice. Miller and DJ would be awsome swingmen, both have guard skills and sf size.

If the rumors of Nazr for Miller are true, that is the deal we should be waiting on.

The Hawks wanted Miller in the 2000 draft but Orlando took him one spot ahead of us at #5 or 6. The we took DJ. These young guys could really grow with JT and Reef.

I vote for Mike Miller

[Traceman]

I agree 100% with your post but I think Ira is more athletic and that allows him to do a few more things than Ty could at the end of his career.

[cyman3]

1)"If JT or SAR gets injured...

We automatically become a 65 ppg team."

-thats like saying if SHAQ and BRYANT gets injured, the Lakers are automatically a 45 ppg team.

JT and SAR both getting injured is very very unlikely. They are both durable and play almost all 82 games.

PLAYERS LIKE NEWBLE make a living playing great defense, Rick Fox and Ty Corbin did it throughout their careers.

2)Huges = Vaughn + CC. Does not work DIESEL. Why would GS do this when they can straight up sign VAUGHN? I dont think they are too high on CC. Besides dont they have BLAYLOCK, LOGAN, ARENAS, and SURA that can all play PG ? Do they really need a 5th PG?

3)the only reasonable trade i see working out here is the Mohammed for ANDERSON. But if we do that straight up, it totally ruins the whole purpose of this thread. We are overloaded at SG/SF, we dont need ANDERSON especially when we dont have a backup C.

The best move is NO MOVE! I understand that you're trying to bring in a consistant 3rd scorer after terry and abdur-rahim. But i think we got that covered.

A)Kukoc- this guy is hard to trade, so i think we should just keep him. Besides didnt the guy have couple TRIPLE DOUBLES after he became a hawk? I think he still has a good year or two left in him.

B)Johnson- when Kukoc can no longer perform, Johnson will be ready. I wish this could be the 3rd scorer on our team, but i dont see it happening this year. But he'll come around.

NO TRADE IS THE BEST TRADE! unless we talking a big time blockbuster trade which would be interesting...

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

1)"If JT or SAR gets injured...

We automatically become a 65 ppg team."

-thats like saying if SHAQ and BRYANT gets injured, the Lakers are automatically a 45 ppg team.

---

No... That's not like saying that.... If Shaq or Kobe gets injured, Horry, Fox, Fischer, or someone else is there to step up their offense to make up for it... They have those kind of players. We don't. Ira is not going to step up his offense. Hendu = No. The only player that we have that could possibly do that is Toni and Toni stays injured too.

In reply to:

---

2)Huges = Vaughn + CC. Does not work DIESEL. Why would GS do this when they can straight up sign VAUGHN? I dont think they are too high on CC. Besides dont they have BLAYLOCK, LOGAN, ARENAS, and SURA that can all play PG ?

---

First off, it's not possible for a team that is as capped out as GS to Pick up a player like Vaughn without doing a SNT or giving up a Exemption that they DO NOT have.

Secondly, they have Arenas Logan and Sura... Arenas didn't do anything last yr. Logan is a rookie and Sura is a SG who has no handles... Or at least not PG handles. They need Jacque Vaughn Like a Crackhead needs a Hit.

In reply to:

---

3)the only reasonable trade i see working out here is the Mohammed for ANDERSON. But if we do that straight up, it totally ruins the whole purpose of this thread. We are overloaded at SG/SF, we dont need ANDERSON especially when we dont have a backup C.

The best move is NO MOVE! I understand that you're trying to bring in a consistant 3rd scorer after terry and abdur-rahim. But i think we got that covered.

---

Now this part is really really elementary school.

First off, the door is full of possible trades...

Nazr for Anderson would go.

Nazr/CC for Declerq and Miller would go.

However, your excuse is:

1. We need Nazr for Theo insurance??

If Theo cannot play, we need to trade him.

If he can play, we don't need a high priced insurance piece AND a Hole at SF. Yes a Hole.

Ira Is a BU... That's it. A BU. He's not going to score more than 10 ppg. He plays good defense. When we already have that similar trait in Theo and Dj... Then we have the makings for Low scoring Losses and a first round Exit.

Again.. MY QUESTION.

What good is having a good defensive player if ANY Given Team can shut down your offense???

You say that you understand my thought of getting a third scorer... Well if you understand it, why do you promote us standing Still?? Teams Know if they Double down on SAR in the post and force JT to take over a game that he's not a good enough distributor to make his teammates better. Moreover, he's not a good enough offensive player to carry our team for long periods of time. How many times last yr did we see Teams double the post and watch us pass the ball until we were forced to take a bad shot?? You think us being totally healthy is going to help that???

If we stay healthy all yr, instead of being a

90 ppg scoring team 104 ppg giving up team

we'd be a 93 ppg scoring team a 96 ppg giving up team. Still Loses.

Learn from the Kings.... Offense Wins.

[Guest Walter]

In reply to:

---

"If Shaq or Kobe gets injured, Horry, Fox, Fischer, or someone else is there to step up their offense to make up for it... They have those kind of players. We don't. Ira is not going to step up his offense. Hendu = No. The only player that we have that could possibly do that is Toni and Toni stays injured too."

---

First, the heading describes the plight of Horry, Fox, and Fischer. These

Who is the "someone else"? Samaki Walker?

As far as the Hawks...First, replacing the scoring of JT and SAR would only require 40 points. This is a MUCH easier plight than replacing the Laker's 60 without Kobe and Shaq. Secondly, TK, DJ, DG, DD, and Theo are all offensively capable players if not highly consistent ones. CC might even be one once he comes back from injury. Thirdly, as far as your poster child for our offensive lackings relative to the woffensive wonders Fox, Fischer, and Horry, Ira (50%) shot a FAR higher percentage than Fox (42%), Fischer (41%), A-N-D a Pf in Horry (40%) and scored as many (Fox) or more (Horry) points per minute as they save Fischer. He has his offensive limitations but they are not in reality any worse than the Lakers you mentioned.

In reply to:

---

"First off, it's not possible for a team that is as capped out as GS to Pick up a player like Vaughn without doing a SNT or giving up a Exemption that they DO NOT have.

Secondly, they have Arenas Logan and Sura... Arenas didn't do anything last yr. Logan is a rookie and Sura is a SG who has no handles... Or at least not PG handles. They need Jacque Vaughn Like a Crackhead needs a Hit."

---

GS is gonna let Hughes walk! How does trading him make them any less capped out than letting him walk?!?!?!?!?!?!? They can get Vaughn for less (since he wants to start so badly) if they don't trade for him.

Swoopa, our resident GS expert, has sighted the good play of Arenas when he was given the chance last year. While he may be a combo guard more than a Pg, the guy can play. I agree Logan, whom you called a top 5 pick, does not do a whole lot to shore up the Pg position for GS. He may not make the team. Yes, Sura is not a pure Pg.

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, how does all this brew-ha-ha justify such a ridiculous trade that will hurt GS tight luxury tax space rather than help it (by making GS take on players in a trade including Vaughn equal to the likely higher salary a REsigned Hughes will fetch rather than letting Hughes walk and signing Vaughn outright for the less money he can command)?

The rest of your post makes no sense to me save the fact that you remain a Deke trade playa' hata' and Ira's good play and cheap price has you tied in curious knots.

THE BEST PART OF THE POST, HOWEVER, IS WHEN YOUR HATE FOR THEO AND IRA GETS TURNED UPON ITSELF. Having already fantasy traded Theo earlier in the post, you say,...

In reply to:

---

"Ira Is a BU... That's it. A BU. He's not going to score more than 10 ppg. He plays good defense. When we already have that similar trait in

Theo

and Dj..."

---

You can't trade away the reason to not play Ira and then claim he is the reason to not trade Ira! DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ira played FAR better defense than even DJ and his defense was of the sort that was infectious to teamates and team defense leading. With Theo in there we have two serious defenders, one one the perimeter and one in the post. While I may agree that ideally Ira (particularly over Mike Miller or the like) is not a starter, he is a good player and perhaps a great fit for this team.

W

[MoonKnight]

for him to develop a 15 foot jumper. If he can hit the 15 foot jumper regularly, then he will give us all the scoring we need. Ira already is a good slasher and garbage scorer. Many times last year teams left him alone for the midrange jumper and his was reluctant to take it. If he is working on the midrange jumper and develops a consistant jumper, then teams can't afford to double SAR or Toni in the post. While at first the Ira=Corbin comparison seems valid, the truth is Corbin never developed the midrange jumper and was never a good slasher. Plus as you remarked, we didn't have the O on those Smitty teams that we have now in JT/SAR/Theo and maybe DJ. The 3 spot is not that big of a concern for me.

[Diesel]

And I meant that like the commercial.

Shaq has taken a couple of siestas in the last three yrs and guess what???

The Lakers keep winning.

The same when Kobe steps out.

The thing is that this is not due to Magic Johnson fixing the games... However, The Lakers have players that are able to step up.

Speaking of the FG% that you bring up, have you ever watched a game? How about a Laker game?? With the game on the line, who do you want to go to...Ira or Horry?? When you need somebody to hit an open shot, who would you rather have.... Ira or Fisher?? When you need that player to hit the shot over coverage, whoose your man.... Fox or Ira??

Please stay away from me with those Dumass Stats if you have never watched a game!!!!!

Walter = Dumass Stat Man.

[Hawksfreak]

kinky

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

Swoopa, our resident GS expert, has sighted the good play of Arenas when he was given the chance last year. While he may be a combo guard more than a Pg, the guy can play.

---

This made me laugh hard... So since Swoopa says Gilbert played good, I guess GS's PG search is over?? Too bad that they are looking to trade the whole team for Miller. So Sad that St. Jean is looking for a way to clear some cap so that he can get McInnis. Maybe he plays well but GS still have doubts. Still looking for a PG. Maybe you should email St. Jean and tell him that "Swoopa Said"....

:lol

[Hawksfreak]

lets all get along

[Guest Walter]

Maybe I missed something, but if only one of Kobe and Shaq are out then it would be the other of LA's 2 superstars that steps up to take on the majority of the lost scoring load and not Rick Fox, right?

I mean, Kobe's was leading the league in scoring and his scoring average was above 30 PPG when Shaq was out, but then I guess it was Robert Horry's season of 40% shooting and 7 PPG that suggests to you he stepped up to replace Shaq.

Horry is a great clutch player in the playoffs but he takes the regular season off to the extent you don't know he's even there. It's not he that covers for Shaq in his absence.

W

[Guest Walter]

Your initial statement was

In reply to:

---

"If Shaq or Kobe gets injured, Horry, Fox, Fischer, or someone else is there to step up their offense to make up for it... They have those kind of players."

---

You revised your argument from Horry, Fischer, and Fox being able to step up their offense to replace the likes of Kobe AND Shaq to their (overall game and whatever other variables such as their coach Phil Jackson, I guess) being able to allow them to continue winning minus Kobe or Shaq.

In reply to:

---

"Shaq has taken a couple of siestas in the last three yrs and guess what??? The Lakers keep winning."

---

Fox, Horry, and Fischer are certainly the more complete players than the Hawks role players, all playing good individual and team defense to go along with their moderate offensive talents. Perhaps the greatest coach ever does too. More importantly, it's NOT the LA role players taking up the scoring slack but Kobe or Shaq when the other is absent.

W

[cyman3]

Rookie? im the same hawksfan1 and defense3 thats been supporting majority of your trades and help fight Walter.

But here, i gotta go with WALTER. I think Walter said it nice and clear.

"If Shaq or Kobe gets injured, Horry, Fox, Fischer, or someone else is there to step up their offense to make up for it"

- I bet Henderson, Newble, Dickau could contribute as much as Horry, Fox, and Fischer on that team. Besides other than Horry, Fox, and Fisher- no one is capable of averaging 10 ppg on that team. Ratliff here can average 10 ppg. We have more scoring options than they do. Take out BRYANT and ONEAL and on our team take out ABDUR-RAHIM and TERRY, and i think we will have a better record than them. But thats just my opinion.

[Guest Walter]

...so to then go on and "accuse" me of suggesting "GS's Pg search was over" is inane, false babble.

AGAIN, how is it cheaper for GS to let Hughes walk and sign Vaughn as an unrestricted FA than it is to REsign their own FA (presumably for a higher salary, since otherwise he has no reason to resign with a team only to be traded by them) in Hughes and trade him for Vaughn and likely other players?

I certainly trust Swoopa's opinion on GS's players more than your No-talent scouting opinion. When should we expect your next trade for "Mookie and some good green stuff trade"?

W

[Guest]

Even for you Dumass Stat Man...

When Shaq is not there, sure Kobe will score more, but not enough to make up Shaq's portion. It's one of those other players or maybe all of them that steps up their game more than usually that really makes up the difference.

http://www.nba.com/games/20010204/SACLAL/boxscore.html

for instance. Robert Horry gets 20 points in 25 minutes off the bench. That's not usual for the man that you (the dumass Stat man) says avgs 7 ppg. Ohhhhh BTW, this is from a regular season game. Horry plays when he has to play.

[Guest]

Cyman, you change your name too damn much...

Anyway.

You actually think that JT and SAR's surrounding cast are better than what the Lakers have around Shaq and Kobe???

Let see, what would the matchups be....

Dickau/DJ/Ira/Hendu/Theo

vs.

Fisher/Rush/Fox/Horry/ and Walker

Their starter are better.

Off the bench we have:

Davis/Glover/Toni/Smith/Nazr/CC

off the bench they have:

Hunter/Richmond/George/Murry/Madsen/Medvenko/ and Shaw.

Again, I think that their bench is better. Not much better, but still better.