You can shove a ref but you can't shove LeBron

[AnnArborHawk]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008...tory?id=3378490

[TanAdam]

My exact thought too. What a crock of shi*

[Admin]

The only way to defend the decision to not suspend KG is that the ref did grab him first. I'm glad he's not suspended too because I would rather win/lose against the Celtics with Garnett than beat them without him.

[coachx]

Had the tables been reversed in Atlanta and ZaZa through the elbow to start the fiasco. Then while being restrained ZaZa pushes the ref twice .....poor ZaZa would have a 1 or 2 games suspension. Every one would be calling him a Russian Thug. KG does it and NOTHING happens.

Star treatment for KG and Lebron , 2 of the 3 most marketabale players in the playoffs. Typical David Stern. He is out to make the league money. That his job......anything else he tells you or tries to sale you is just a bunch of BS.

I have absolutely no respect for David Stern and his "principles."

[Lascar78]

KG was shaking lose from the ref. The more apt comparison to me would be KG putting an elbow to Zaza's chest/neck or Zaza headbutting him going unsuspended.

[Admin]

So you think that KG should be suspended for what he did to Zaza? I can see a technical foul being called but I don't think it was nearly flagrant enough to warrant a suspension. The same for Zaza. Neither of their actions were nearly as bad as what Songalia did to Lebron.

[SeekingJustice]

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The only way to defend the decision to not suspend KG is that the ref did grab him first. I'm glad he's not suspended too because I would rather win/lose against the Celtics with Garnett than beat them without him.

Watch the video again. 12 seconds in KG grabs the ref FIRST. The NBA ignored this.

[AHF]

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The only way to defend the decision to not suspend KG is that the ref did grab him first. I'm glad he's not suspended too because I would rather win/lose against the Celtics with Garnett than beat them without him.

Watch the video again. 12 seconds in KG grabs the ref FIRST. The NBA ignored this.

Yep. The ref stands there like a traffic cop with his arm extended. KG pushes him aside. The ref then tries to grab KG to stop him from entering the fracas. KG pushes the ref with two hands and walks right into the crowd.

**crickets**

[Lascar78]

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So you think that KG should be suspended for what he did to Zaza? I can see a technical foul being called but I don't think it was nearly flagrant enough to warrant a suspension. The same for Zaza. Neither of their actions were nearly as bad as what Songalia did to Lebron.

No I agree with you that I would not have suspended Zaza/KG and probably would have suspended Songalia. All I'm saying is the KG situation with the ref is very different from the examples it keeps getting compared to. So far I agree with pretty much all the suspensions. The Amare one last year was the bad one.

actually, I don't know if Songalia should have been suspended. He clearly smacked him in the face but wasn't trying to hurt him. A T might have been enough.

[Lascar78]

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Watch the video again. 12 seconds in KG grabs the ref FIRST. The NBA ignored this.

I must be watching different video or something. Here's what I see

-the ref extends his arm and basically stiff-arms KG to keep him where he is

-KG does a swim move to get his arm off of him and get by him

-the ref grabs him with both arms from behind

-KG shoves him so he can yank his arms back and break lose

Seems to me like the ref starts the contact both times. This is clearly not a "I'm gonna get this ref" type situation, it is a "get the F off of me" situation. Very different to me.

[coachx]

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Watch the video again. 12 seconds in KG grabs the ref FIRST. The NBA ignored this.

I must be watching different video or something. Here's what I see

-the ref extends his arm and basically stiff-arms KG to keep him where he is

-KG does a swim move to get his arm off of him and get by him

-the ref grabs him with both arms from behind

-KG shoves him so he can yank his arms back and break lose

Seems to me like the ref starts the contact both times. This is clearly not a "I'm gonna get this ref" type situation, it is a "get the F off of me" situation. Very different to me.

You version of "reality" is so fun to "debate." It is crazy how we all watch the same tape and see different things.

So to you the referee has no business breaking up a fight. They have no business touching a player first who is trying to fight another player. Then what should they do ? Say, "hey Mr. you better stop fighting right now !" Ha, Ha, ya right ! They had already blown their whistles to no avail. So since the referee can't touch a player first (in your mind) he should just let them fight until the player decide to stop fighting ? That makes NO sense !

You get all hung up on "the ref touched KG first so KG has the right to do what he did." Thats hog wash and you know it !

You seem like you dug yourself in a trench and just won't face truth. A referee is there to stop fights from happening and keep order and control. Rules are in place to protect the ref so he can have the confidence to step in and break up a fight involviong men half the refs age and twice hiz size.

Some of these refs are over 60 years old and all of them are much smaller then professional NBA players. They need some protection and need the rules to be enforced.

They have a right to touch a player who has lost control to help gain control and the player should have no right to take his anger out on the ref and push back......If not every player would push the ref or to use your words "throw them of.''

A referee in boxing intiates contact all the time but the boxer can't push them back. During a fight an NBA referee is essentially breaking up a tie up just like a boxing ref.

You make absolutly no sense to me on this.

This is the real world Lascar ! Not a dream world. To stop 260 pound grown men with playoff adrenalin from fighting you need to touch them and impose some force of your own from authority figure. Rules are in place for a very good reason so 60 year old, 150 pound referess have the confidence and protection to step in and stop it.

Figures of authority have alwayse had the right to step in and stop a fight. Whether its a school teacher, police man, or a referee, that is their job and rules are in place to allow them to do their jobs without being hurt.

[Lascar78]

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You version of "reality" is so fun to "debate." It is crazy how we all watch the same tape and see different things.

So to you the referee has no business breaking up a fight. They have no business touching a player first who is trying to fight another player. Then what should they do ? Say, "hey Mr. you better stop fighting right now !" Ha, Ha, ya right ! They had already blown their whistles to no avail. So since the referee can't touch a player first (in your mind) he should just let them fight until the player decide to stop fighting ? That make NO sense !

Where did I say the ref should not have touched him? Oh that's right I didn't. I have no problem with the ref getting all up in there.

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You seem like you dug yourself in a trench and just won't face truth. A referee is there to stop fights from happening and rules are in place to protect the ref so he can have the confidence to step in and break up a fight involviong men half the refs age and twice their size.

Some of these refs are over 60 years old and all of them are much smaller then professional NBA players. They need some protection and need the rules to be enforced.

They have a to touch a player who has lost control to help gain control and the player should have no right to take his anger out on the ref and push back......If not every player would push the ref or to use your words "throw them of.''

Where did I say it was ok for KG to push the ref? Oh that's right I didn't. KG was 100% wrong for pushing the ref. He was also wrong for elbowing Zaza, and Zaza was wrong for head-butting KG. But that is not what we're talking about. We're not talking about right or wrong.

We're talking about whether it deserves a T or an ejection. And all I'm pointing out is that all the so-called precedents being discussed as examples are very different. The following situations are all very, very different:

A-a player elbows another player

B-a player smacks another player in the face after a play ends

C-a player talks about bad officiating

D-a player assaults a referee (headbutt, shove him when you are upset at him ...)

E-a player gives a ref a small shove and yanks his arm to break free when the referee grabs him

The way the NBA has responded to offenses A, B, C, or D does not automatically mean they have to respond in the same way to case E. Your list of 27 precedents the other day was exclusively case C, and D. Songalia is case B. So, to re-iterate my point again, and I quote: "This is clearly not a "I'm gonna get this ref" type situation, it is a "get the F off of me" situation. Very different to me."

I said from the get-go, KG could easily have been suspended. But just because you suspend a guy who smacks a player in the face, or suspend a player who walks up to a ref and headbutts him doesn't mean you automatically suspend a guy who was a little aggressive in breaking free from the ref's grasp. THEY ARE VERY DIFFERENT SITUATIONS.

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A referee in boxing intiates contact all the time but the boxer can't push them back. During a fight an NBA referee is essentially breaking up a tie up just like a boxing ref.

You make absolutly no sense to me on this.

This is the real world Lascar ! To stop 260 pound grown men with playoff adrenalin from fighting you need to touch them and rules are in place for a very good reason so 60 year old, 150 pound referess have the confidence to step in and stop it.

Figures of authority have alwayse had the right to step in and stop a fight. Whether its a school teacher, police man, or a referee, that is their job and rules are in place to allow them to do their jobs without being hurt.

a) this is not boxing

b) the ref is not 60

c) the ref was allowed to do his job

d) the ref was not hurt

So what's the issue here. This wasn't Shaq lifting d*ck bavetta and throwing him to the ground on his head. It was a man breaking free from another man. He was in absolutely no danger.

The rule you keep referring to is to prevent players from going after refs. That is not what was going on here, and that rule is irrelevant in determining whether KG should get a T or a suspension for being aggressive in breaking free.

Funny how your whole argument is that he roughed up the ref so bad that he needs suspending, yet that ref didn't eject him from the game or anything, and thought everything was fine with just a T for everyone to calm things down. I guess you guys know better than him just how badly he was violated.

[Lascar78]

Just as a small sidenote, the reason all of the constant complaints about refereeing/league suspensions annoy me is the same reason that hotlantadude annoys just about everyone on this site (no offense).

Hotlanta claims to like the hawks but loves nothing more than to bash them 24/7. Sure he's got a point some of the time, but mostly he's looking at everything with tunnelvision, and finding what he wants to see, mostly that the hawks suck. Not sure why he's still on a hawks fan website.

Some of you guys claim to be NBA fans but love nothing more than to [censored] about the league and how it's run every chance you get. Sure you have a point some of the time, but most of the time you're just finding what you want to see, interpreting every lottery result, suspension, or any league decision to be somehow a result of evil bastards trying to manipulate the league and give some teams advantages ... in other words, the NBA sucks. Sure the league screws up from time to time, but mostly you see what you want to see. Not sure why you're on an NBA team's fan website. If I honestly believed that the league manipulated the refereeing / lottery / suspensions ... to screw some teams or help others, I wouldn't watch the league at all.

[coachx]

Don't play politician with me and go around the facts !

Its this simple ! You say KG should NOT be disciplined for pushing a referee. That means your logic says its OK to push a referee and get away with it.

Your trying to have it both ways and you simply can't do that.

It's Either "A"

If it is OK for KG to have done what he did then you do not enforce the rule. Which is your stance....Right ?

Or "B"

If it is NOT OK for KG to push the ref then you enforce the rule and supend him.

VERY SIMPLE LOGIC HERE I DON"T WANT TO LOSE YOU AGAIN.

[Lascar78]

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Don't play politician with me and go around the facts !

Its this simple ! You say KG should be disciplined for pushing a referee. That means your logic says its OK to push a referee and get away with it.

What? He got a T, he didn't get away with it, it's a matter of whether it's a T or an ejection.

The rule you're referring to states: "Any player or coach guilty of intentional physical contact with an official shall automatically be suspended without pay for one game. A fine and/or longer period of suspension will result if circumstances so dictate."

The rule itself assumes that the referee did not initiate physical contact. If not any time a ref touches you it's a suspension. Not to mention that if you're going to go by the book it means that any time they lean on the refs, pat them on the back, or put their arm around them or on their shoulder (as they often do when they discuss a call) it should be a suspension.

But let's be realistic. That rule basically says if you touch a ref you're out. It doesn't say what happens when a ref touches you and you try to break free. So as far as that rule goes, no I don't believe it applies if you're looking to go by the book. Again, Rodman headbutting a ref would apply, Magic shoving that ref would apply. This is different.

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It's Either "A"

If it is OK for KG to have done what he did then you do not enforce the rule. Which is your stance....Right ?

I said in no uncertain terms and in bold that what KG did was not OK. But it did not break that specific rule which carries an automatic suspension.

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Or "B"

If it is NOT OK for KG to push the ref then you enforce the rule and supend him.

VERY SIMPLE LOGIC HERE I DON"T WANT TO LOSE YOU AGAIN.

Let's see if you can follow this: there is more than one rule in the rule book. Your entire premise of A vs B assumes that is the only punishable rule in the book.

He did not break this particular rule which basically pertains to players initiating contact with refs. But his behavior was inappropriate and was punished with a T. Just like Zaza headbutting him was punished with a T. Just like all those other examples of players being suspended for talking sh!t about the refs were suspended even though they didnt break this particular rule. This is not the only rule in the book.

[coachx]

I think its easier and less confusing when you just follow the letter of the rule or law.....Especially when it favors our Hawks in the playoffs !

This is a simple matter of ambiguity in the rule. The rule does not clearly state what happens when a referee is breaking up a fight. That is up for interpretation. We obviously just have different interpretations.

No worries or outrage on my part ! I guess I'm finally over it.

Have a blast at the game tonight, Lascar ! I know I will !

[bronnt]

One thing I did notice from the video this time is that it seems that KG actually glances down at the ref the first time he swipes his arm away. As for the "he didn't know who was grabbing him" he surely should have known that it was referee Eddie T Rush.

Still don't think it quite warrants a suspension since he was just trying to break free from the official, rather than actually pushing him. But he knew the official was holding him to try to keep him from going back into the fray, and he purposely broke free to walk back into the mass.

As for Songaila, he was suspended because he threw a damn punch at LeBron. Their arms were hooked, Songaila got his arm free and then swiped at LeBron's face. It was closed fist and everything, right across the chin. The officials missed it, but there was enough good video for the league office to say "Yeah, you're definately gone."

Check about 35 seconds in. It's a slow motion close up. That's an intentional face blow or I've never seen one. If KG had gone at Zaza like that, he'd have been suspended.

[Lascar78]

Haha, for sure. We're all here to argue over trivial BS we have no control over anyhow ... I'm just ready for my beer at Gorin's in about an hour

[SeekingJustice]

Looking at it again the ref extended his arm and KG pushed past it. The ref did his job and KG pushed him for it.

[DrReality]

the announcers last night said they blew the call with James. Surprise, surprise.