You know what's hilarious...

[EazyRoc]

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So what do you do when the players aren't executing on a consistent basis? Do you bench them and risk losing games that you can't afford to lose? Or do you get in their ear every time they come off the floor, like Woody already does? I think if we had a solid bench you would see him disciplining players a lot more often.

He's had a chance to bench players in previous years, when he could afford to lose. Woody doesn't always get in player's ears when they play wildly. I've watched J.Smith do boneheaded things and instead of saying anything, Woody ignores J.Smith as he walks to the bench. J.Smith isn't a rookie, so he's had his chance to really bench him for making mistakes. In fact, I've seen him stand with his arms crossed and a dumb look on his face more than I seen him coaching/guiding his players.

[Admin]

Woody takes Marvin and Smoove out of the game when they make mistakes but there is only so many times that he can do that without having a reliable replacement for them before it starts costing us games. There also comes a time when the player has to take it upon themselves and execute what they have been taught.

I'm not saying that no coach who hasn't won a title isn't better than Woody. What I have repeatedly said is that I wouldn't disrupt our chemistry to hire a non-championship winning coach, just to make a change.

So Smith got better as the year went on? As if maybe he was being coached during the year and got better because of it? For the record, when he came into the league he was horrible with anything that didn't involve pure athleticism. He is FAR better now, but still has a ways to go.

Horford got significantly better on offense towards the end of the year. At the beginning of the year he was trying to back everyone down and towards the end he had developed a nice spin move, was using a pump fake, his jumper was much better, and he became a reliable post scoring option. He certainly didn't come into the year like that.

[Admin]

So you've seen Woody on the sidelines look like a frustrated parent who sees their kids doing something that he has taught them not to do and yet they still do it? That sounds like what every other coach with a young team goes through. Woody makes his share of mistakes but when the players prove that they can run the offense at times, it makes them look like stubborn (or forgetful) children when they don't.

[TheTrueSiete]

I'm not saying that no coach who hasn't won a title isn't better than Woody. What I have repeatedly said is that I wouldn't disrupt our chemistry to hire a non-championship winning coach, just to make a change.

Ok, is it just me or does one sentence completely go against the other?

7

[Cwell]

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So what do you do when the players aren't executing on a consistent basis? Do you bench them and risk losing games that you can't afford to lose? Or do you get in their ear every time they come off the floor, like Woody already does? I think if we had a solid bench you would see him disciplining players a lot more often.

He's had a chance to bench players in previous years, when he could afford to lose. Woody doesn't always get in player's ears when they play wildly. I've watched J.Smith do boneheaded things and instead of saying anything, Woody ignores J.Smith as he walks to the bench. J.Smith isn't a rookie, so he's had his chance to really bench him for making mistakes. In fact, I've seen him stand with his arms crossed and a dumb look on his face more than I seen him coaching/guiding his players. exactly.He'd take somebody out and give them an eye as they walk to the bench but never has the player sit next to him and tell him what he did wrong and what to do from now on.maybe because he has no clue whatsoever

[EazyRoc]

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So Smith got better as the year went on? As if maybe he was being coached during the year and got better because of it? For the record, when he came into the league he was horrible with anything that didn't involve pure athleticism. He is FAR better now, but still has a ways to go.

Horford got significantly better on offense towards the end of the year. At the beginning of the year he was trying to back everyone down and towards the end he had developed a nice spin move, was using a pump fake, his jumper was much better, and he became a reliable post scoring option. He certainly didn't come into the year like that.

Smith's development came from his own passion and hardwork. He seeked out Hall of Fame players to help improve his own game. Even so, his actual skills really aren't that polished, but he's able to "out-quick" PFs due to his freakish athleticism. He still has a long way to go..

Horford did get better at the end of the year, but I think that has more to do with Alton Lister. Even then, he wasn't a reliable post scoring option, but he did perform better in the post. I don't know if Woody personally had anything to do with any of his player's development. That's why our assistants are so good. Even JJ praised our assistants when making the case for keeping Woody.

[EazyRoc]

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I'm not saying that no coach who hasn't won a title isn't better than Woody. What I have repeatedly said is that I wouldn't disrupt our chemistry to hire a non-championship winning coach, just to make a change.

I don't want to get rid of Woody just for the sake of change. His offensive "scheme" is non-existent. In the 4 years that Mike Woodson has been here, our team really has no identity . I mean what are we ? a defensive team or an offensive team ? Are we a fast break team or a half court team ?

Mike Woodson does not do a lot to help improve the skills of his young players. Everybody and their mama knows that Josh Smith puts in a lot of work in the off-season to improve his game. Marvin has made some improvements, but nothing particularly noteworthy. The evidence of significant improvement is just not there.

However!

Avery Johnson has developed some solid players in his time as Dallas' coach. Look at players like Devin Harris, Josh Howard, Brandon Bass, and even Diop. Diop was just a big body in Cleveland, but he was considered by a lot of players to be an important piece of Dallas' defense before he was traded away. He had gone from a big body to a very good post defender under Avery. Josh Howard was one of the best perimiter defenders in the league under Avery Johnson (until this year). Devin Harris is a young star in the making and so much so that NJ is rumored to be shopping Marcus Williams. Brandon Bass' playoff performance speaks for itself. He's a combo forward with a lot of skill and athleticism.

Flip Saunders has really developed some solid players, too. Flip put some faith in Stuckey and Stuckey's game has improved because of it. He can really get to the basket and finish, instead of playing timid (sounds like Acie) and afraid to take shots. Jason Maxiell is a force, and has combined his freakish athleticism with defense skill. Tayshaun Prince's offensive game has also improved these past few years. I fail to mention that Flip is also considered a good offensive coach, who I think could maximize our offense by putting our players in better positions to score.

[Admin]

Oh really?

[Cwell]

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Oh really?

and none of them are paying him any attention lol.3 pics?wow show me a pic of him next to Acie or Salim or Shelden

[Admin]

I have proved my point. It's obvious that you are just blindly hating on Woody so I'm not going to waste any more time going over this with you.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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[smith's development came from his own passion and hardwork. He seeked out Hall of Fame players to help improve his own game. Even so, his actual skills really aren't that polished, but he's able to "out-quick" PFs due to his freakish athleticism. He still has a long way to go..

Even when people point out the obvious about Smith, and the role the coaches had in his development, people still want to believe that he did everything on his own. Smith prove from time to time that if he had his preference, that he'd stay out on the perimeter as much as possible.

It was Woody and the coaches who not only moved him to the 4, so that he'd be more potent on offense, it was they who told him to attack more. He didn't see the light until he sat out and saw how the team needed someone to attack the rim. He STILL tries to play like a guard at times, and it hurts the team. But when he listens to the coaches and attacks, good things usually happen.

Those same coaches have stressed to Marvin to attack the rim as well, resulting in him making the most FTs on the team this year.

But all of this would go against the "Woody doesn't know what the hell he is doing" theory, so people will never admit to these points being true.

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Horford did get better at the end of the year, but I think that has more to do with Alton Lister. Even then, he wasn't a reliable post scoring option, but he did perform better in the post. I don't know if Woody personally had anything to do with any of his player's development. That's why our assistants are so good. Even JJ praised our assistants when making the case for keeping Woody.

Of course. Give Lister the credit for Horford's offensive development. Because we all remember how much of an offensive BEAST Lister was on offense. He used to dominate centers offensively with is great 15 foot jumper and his plethora of bck to the basket post moves. Olajuwon and Moses Malone couldn't dream of stopping Lister.

Horford improved offensively, especially after Bibby got here, because a guy like Bibby could get him 1 or 2 more easy baskets a game. He started taking and making the 12 to 15 foot jumper a little mote. He even started to take his man off the dribble when he got the ball around the FT line.

Heaven forbid that our coaches try to teach our kids anything. They're part of Woody's staff, but Woody had no role whatsoever in their development . . lol.

[EazyRoc]

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Of course. Give Lister the credit for Horford's offensive development. Because we all remember how much of an offensive BEAST Lister was on offense. He used to dominate centers offensively with is great 15 foot jumper and his plethora of bck to the basket post moves. Olajuwon and Moses Malone couldn't dream of stopping Lister.

Horford improved offensively, especially after Bibby got here, because a guy like Bibby could get him 1 or 2 more easy baskets a game. He started taking and making the 12 to 15 foot jumper a little mote. He even started to take his man off the dribble when he got the ball around the FT line.

Heaven forbid that our coaches try to teach our kids anything. They're part of Woody's staff, but Woody had no role whatsoever in their development . . lol.

What are you talking about ..? Lister is one of our coaches, more specifically our big men coach. Therefore, I'm giving credit to Woodson's staff for Horford's improvement.

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It was Woody and the coaches who not only moved him to the 4, so that he'd be more potent on offense, it was they who told him to attack more. He didn't see the light until he sat out and saw how the team needed someone to attack the rim. He STILL tries to play like a guard at times, and it hurts the team. But when he listens to the coaches and attacks, good things usually happen.

Outside of changing his position, Josh Smith had came to realize himself that he can be more effective attacking the rim. Whether or not the coaching staff was preaching it is irrelevant considering that Josh Smith didn't start attacking the rim until he himself decided that he's better when doing so. The fact that doesn't do it consistently is a negative on Smith, but it also looks bad because it seems like the staff isn't able to reign him in completely.

Also, I never had a "Woody doesn't know what the hell he is doing" theory, don't put words in my mouth. I think Woodson's hands-on development of his players is very limited. Maybe because he's busy trying to manage the game or for whatever reason. Woodson doesn't do a whole lot of sideline coaching, no matter how many pictures you pull up. Can you honestly look at all the athletes we drafted and say that in 3/4 years, Woodson has turned them into skillful basketball players ?

I'm base my assumptions on results and evidence, and evidence shows that most of our players aren't making big strides playing under Mike Woodson.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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I have proved my point. It's obvious that you are just blindly hating on Woody so I'm not going to waste any more time going over this with you.

LOL Dol. That's why I called the people giving Woody F's in that Woodson GPA thread "nothing but haters". It's just not being objective at all to flat out said he failed here, when he was given one of the most inexperienced and flawed rosters in b-ball.

While I disagree with you about hiring Avery to replace Woody, it is curious that almost NONE of the guys that are being talked about on this board, have been hired by other teams. No Silas. No Porter. No Harris. No Fratello. None of those guys have been hired. And many of them aren't even being rumored for a job.

It'll be interesting to see who goes after Saunders, if anybody does.

As for our "non-existant" offense, it improved DRAMATICALLY after the All-Star break when we got Bibby.

We shot 47% FG . . . up from 44%

We shot 39% 3FG . . up from 33% ( and we hit 3 more threes a game )

And we averaged 103.5 ppg . . up almost 9 points a game ( which directly correlates to the increased number of threes we made.

So people have to give credit to Woody for having the offense flow better after the break . . or they have to acknowledge that Bibby was a significant talent upgrade at a position Woody needed at, in order to make the offense look better.

That's why i place what happened with the Celtics squarely on Bibby. He was the guy who immeadiately made our offense look better. But when Boston was able to limit his point and assist production, it was a death nail for us.

And I have to give the Boston defense credit for taking us out of our game too, because they did the same things to Cleveland and Detroit.

But you're right Dol, change for the sake of change is useless, unless we can get a coach that is a significant upgrade over Woody.

And it's really funny now how guys like Salim and Shelden are now lookd upon as Woody developmental failures, when 80% of this fan base used to dog them out everytime they stepped out on the court, because they were not producing.

[Admin]

Yep, too much hating going on. So much hating that it makes me look like I do nothing but praise Woody when I probably scream at the tv as much as anyone else when he makes mistakes but I have to defend him against some of these absurd comments from these child posters.

It's easy to ignore how much better our offense looked with Bibby, but then the Woody haters will do nothing but give the credit to Bibby and claim that he was running his own plays out there. Woody never gets credit for anything good that the team does, he only gets the blame for the bad.

I also wonder why those coaches are unemployed, if they are so great. I think someone will definitely go after Saunders, but it will probably have to be a veteran team with strong leadership that doesn't have a disruptive guy like Rasheed on it. It may not even be this year but someone will definitely hire him again.

Regarding Avery, I'm not totally against him and I think he got a raw deal in Dallas, but it does concern me that he might be a Skiles type of coach that wears his players down to the point where they stop responding to him. I guess that's what you get when you have a bunch of million dollar athletes who don't have to worry about getting fired, they can just ignore the coach until he is fired.

Coaching wise I think he is probably a better coach than Woody, but if he lost his team in Dallas I would be worried that the same might happen here and that's a huge risk. For all of Woody's faults (real or imagined) the one thing he has done is keep the respect of his players.

[bronnt]

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I have proved my point. It's obvious that you are just blindly hating on Woody so I'm not going to waste any more time going over this with you.

I'm sorry, I can probably find more than three pictures of Woodson scratching his ass with 30 seconds left in the fourth quarter in a close game. I don't think you proved much.

[EazyRoc]

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Yep, too much hating going on. So much hating that it makes me look like I do nothing but praise Woody when I probably scream at the tv as much as anyone else when he makes mistakes but I have to defend him against some of these absurd comments from these child posters.

It's easy to ignore how much better our offense looked with Bibby, but then the Woody haters will do nothing but give the credit to Bibby and claim that he was running his own plays out there. Woody never gets credit for anything good that the team does, he only gets the blame for the bad.

I also wonder why those coaches are unemployed, if they are so great. I think someone will definitely go after Saunders, but it will probably have to be a veteran team with strong leadership that doesn't have a disruptive guy like Rasheed on it. It may not even be this year but someone will definitely hire him again.

Regarding Avery, I'm not totally against him and I think he got a raw deal in Dallas, but it does concern me that he might be a Skiles type of coach that wears his players down to the point where they stop responding to him. I guess that's what you get when you have a bunch of million dollar athletes who don't have to worry about getting fired, they can just ignore the coach until he is fired.

Coaching wise I think he is probably a better coach than Woody, but if he lost his team in Dallas I would be worried that the same might happen here and that's a huge risk. For all of Woody's faults (real or imagined) the one thing he has done is keep the respect of his players.

If Flip Saunders or Avery Johnson weren't available, I'd want to keep Mike Woodson here for another year. I think they are better coaches, but I don't think Woody is terrible. Our team, when focused, can play absolutely stifling defense which is why we were able to come from behind in our playoff wins and a lot in the regular season. It's just so often that we wait until we're down in double digits to really play great defense.

I think Woodson can be considered slightly below average with a young team (I gave him a D+ in the GPA thread), but I think he'd perform better with a veteran team that knows what to do out on the court.

[Admin]

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I don't think you proved much

Sorry, you are wrong here, I most definitely proved that Woody does in fact coach the players when he takes them out of the game.

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He'd take somebody out and give them an eye as they walk to the bench but

never

has the player sit next to him and tell him what he did wrong and what to do from now on.

[Admin]

We have proven that we can play at a high level offensively and defensively in the same season. We haven't done it at the same time, yet ... but we have proven that in the same season we can do both. All we need to do is add some quality veterans to help out with the bench and we will be fine. We aren't far from being a young veteran team and I think the playoff series with Boston is going to do wonders for us, but we still need to add some veteran leadership on the bench.

If we had a veteran team like the Pistons and we had our record I would have been calling for Woody's head a long time ago, but we have been extremely young and I honestly don't think there are more than a handful of coaches in the league (none of which are available to us) that would have done a better job than Woody has done thus far. That doesn't mean he hasn't made his share of mistakes, but he has grown a lot as a coach just as our young players have.

You have to be very careful rushing to hire a coach that has lost the respect of his players, especially a guy like Saunders who has done it in 2 places.

[EazyRoc]

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I also wonder why those coaches are unemployed, if they are so great. I think someone will definitely go after Saunders, but it will probably have to be a veteran team with strong leadership that doesn't have a disruptive guy like Rasheed on it. It may not even be this year but someone will definitely hire him again.

Well, in Dallas' sake, it's obvious that they're about change for the sake of change. That and the fact that Mark Cuban is a little bit too hands-on with basketball operations. Apparently, Avery wasn't happy when Mark Cuban traded away the Mavericks' future for Jason Kidd. Can you blame him when he put so much work in with Devin Harris ?

Flip doesn't have a job, because the Pistons are going in a different direction with their team. He couldn't take them to the level Dumars expected him to be able to. However, not a lot of coaches will be. If your star players don't seem like they want to win it all, then it's probably not going to happen for you.

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Coaching wise I think he is probably a better coach than Woody, but if he lost his team in Dallas I would be worried that the same might happen here and that's a huge risk. For all of Woody's faults (real or imagined) the one thing he has done is keep the respect of his players.

I don't see how you arrived at that assumption. It's true that Joe (one of our stars) respects Mike Woodson, but it's also true that Josh Smith (another one of our stars) has had his issues with him. The thing I respect about Woody is that he doesn't make excuses. He owns up for a lot of his mistakes, and doesn't throw his players under the bus.

[bronnt]

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I don't think you proved much

Sorry, you are wrong here, I most definitely proved that Woody does in fact coach the players when he takes them out of the game.

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He'd take somebody out and give them an eye as they walk to the bench but

never

has the player sit next to him and tell him what he did wrong and what to do from now on.

For one, no one reasonable actually thinks that Woodson "never" talks to his young players. But my concern is that our young players aren't getting ENOUGH feedback on what they're doing and what they need to stop doing. Well, one of them.

There's photographic evidence of BigFoot-finding three instants in which Woodson appears to be talking to his players doesn't prove that he's a good coach.