Smoove love vs Marvin hate..Why?

[tmac13]

Both Smoove and Marvin are young 3/4 tweeners with strengths and weaknesses in their games. Smoove is a little over aggressive and Marvin is a little timid. Offensively they are a wash. Smoove averages 2 more points a game while taking 2 more shots a game. Smoove by virtue of his defensive assignment gets more rebounds as he is usually near the basket while Marv is usually on the perimeter. Smoove is a great shotblocker but is also prone to turn the ball over and take bad shots. Marvin is a much more vanilla player as he plays a much more conservatively and makes fewer mistakes. All and all these 2 guys are similar as far as positive impact on the court.

My question to the board is why Smoove is almost universally beloved by Hawks fans and why is Marvin the constant target of naysayers. Is it because of who we passed over to draft Marvin? If we had passed over Chris Paul and Deron Williams to draft Smoove would he be constantly compared to those 2 or would he still be loved? Is it because Smoove is a local kid that was a low risk draft choice that paid off handsomely? Is it because Smoove is flashy and Marvin isn't? I am interested in the opinions of others here on this subject. I have rarely seen 2 guys whose impact is similar whose perceptions are so different

[Traceman]

I think who Marvin isn't (CP3 or Deron) has a lot to do with the "hate" he gets on the board but he has NOT had a similar impact to Smoove on this team. That may happen down the road but Smoove has been the more impactful player by FAR.

That said, if Marv were not from Atlanta and he were a Smoove clone, I think most would still want CP3 or Deron (I certainly would) but I don't think the outcry would be quite as bad because Smoove is such a dynamic/exciting player.

[HawksFan87]

I think it's pretty obvious lol, Smoove being the 17th pick has clearly played better than Marvin who was supposed to be a superstar... I think it's silly to compare the 2, Marvin doesn't come close to having the type of impact on the game that Smoove does... Which is why Smoove is loved and Marvin is talked about so much...

[crimedog]

Both players have their supporters and detractors. About half this board was hoping to move Josh for Chris Kaman about a month ago and there are those who think Marv is a superstar being held back by his coach.

Al and Joe are the universally beloved players, although as Al gets older there will be the same sort of frustration when he doesn't turn into EXACTLY what certain people expect.

With Josh and Marv respectively, yeah, where they were picked has something to do with it but the fact that Smith has the second most offensive responsibility as a creator and the most defensive responsibility makes him far more valuable than Marv currently is.

Hopefully both iron the wrinkles out of their games but Smith's superior athleticism and drive allow him to do more with less skill.

[mrhonline]

Can't we love them both?

:love:

[Swatguy]

Both Smoove and Marvin are young 3/4 tweeners with strengths and weaknesses in their games. Smoove is a little over aggressive and Marvin is a little timid. Offensively they are a wash. Smoove averages 2 more points a game while taking 2 more shots a game. Smoove by virtue of his defensive assignment gets more rebounds as he is usually near the basket while Marv is usually on the perimeter. Smoove is a great shotblocker but is also prone to turn the ball over and take bad shots. Marvin is a much more vanilla player as he plays a much more conservatively and makes fewer mistakes. All and all these 2 guys are similar as far as positive impact on the court.

My question to the board is why Smoove is almost universally beloved by Hawks fans and why is Marvin the constant target of naysayers. Is it because of who we passed over to draft Marvin? If we had passed over Chris Paul and Deron Williams to draft Smoove would he be constantly compared to those 2 or would he still be loved? Is it because Smoove is a local kid that was a low risk draft choice that paid off handsomely? Is it because Smoove is flashy and Marvin isn't? I am interested in the opinions of others here on this subject. I have rarely seen 2 guys whose impact is similar whose perceptions are so different

The perception is, Josh plays full-tilt boogie. Marvin finds a soft place to hide.

[JJFAN4LF]

I happen to like both Marvin Williams and Josh Smith, I just like Josh Smith more.

Josh Smith is probably the most unique player in the league, that's why I think Hawks fans like him. He has shown flashes a lot more than Marvin Williams has. Josh Smith always contributes one way or another in the stat sheet, whether it be blocking shots, rebounding, or passing the ball. When Josh Smith is having a bad game, he still contributes.

When Marvin Williams is having a bad game, you don't see him doing anything at all.

[frosgrim]

I happen to like both Marvin Williams and Josh Smith, I just like Josh Smith more.

Josh Smith is probably the most unique player in the league, that's why I think Hawks fans like him. He has shown flashes a lot more than Marvin Williams has. Josh Smith always contributes one way or another in the stat sheet, whether it be blocking shots, rebounding, or passing the ball. When Josh Smith is having a bad game, he still contributes.

When Marvin Williams is having a bad game, you don't see him doing anything at all.

Hard to argue with all the observations in this thread, and the quoted text above especially.

The only thing that I would add is that hard working players are always more liked than the ones that seem to coast from time to time. Marvin just doen't scream intensity like Smith does. This isn't to say that MW doesn't have his moments, he does, but Smith has more of them.

[Hawk88]

Marvin is pretty much universally hated and that's because, he freaking deserves it. The guy should be in the WNBA.

Josh Smith is not universally loved, tons of people were calling for him to be traded in a SNT deal before he signed his contract. But at least Josh plays like a monster at least 1 out of 5 nights. Marvin, never plays like a monster, period.

Marvin sucks.

Josh has great games and is from Atlanta.

Hawk88

Edited September 2, 2008 by Hawk88

[AtLaS]

Marvin was drafted #2. Smith was drafted #17. That's the key reason. And, Smith is NOT universally beloved on this site, it's far from it and he has a lot of haters on here.

But, Marvin would take heat regardless, many of his offseason comments and perceptions lead us into that. The guy will be taking summer classes for the next 6-7 years if he truly wants to graduate. Last summer he had some comments that went like, "Well I was lifting every day all summer, but I bumped into an assistant coach and he told me some basic things I needed to work on." Basically saying he was working out and running but not attempting to add anything to his game. Hopefully that's changed this summer as he's added weight to hopefully help him finish inside, and worked on the 3pt shot.

As of now, he's not an impact player at all. His basic premise is making midrange jumpers. He can't finish inside well and never seems to perform well under pressure (with the one exception being game 6). He doesn't have any go to moves, and must be setup of left open to score.

[Admin]

As of now, he's not an impact player at all. His basic premise is making midrange jumpers. He can't finish inside well and never seems to perform well under pressure (with the one exception being game 6). He doesn't have any go to moves, and must be setup of left open to score and with all that being said he still scores more efficiently than Josh Smith, made more FT's than Josh Smith and only scores 2.4 less PPG overall than Josh Smith while playing 108 fewer minutes than Josh Smith.

Corrected.

That's comparing year 4 Josh Smith to year 3 Marvin Williams. Marvin makes it look even more in interesting if you compare their year 3's.

By the way, this is not me hating on Josh Smith, this is me cracking up at how some of you say such horrible things about Marvin and yet his numbers are equal, close to, or better Josh Smith in many categories all the while having all these horrific flaws.

[tmac13]

Corrected.

That's comparing year 4 Josh Smith to year 3 Marvin Williams. Marvin makes it look even more in interesting if you compare their year 3's.

By the way, this is not me hating on Josh Smith, this is me cracking up at how some of you say such horrible things about Marvin and yet his numbers are equal, close to, or better Josh Smith in many categories all the while having all these horrific flaws.

That is my point exactly. Their numbers are very close but the perception is that Josh is a rising star and Marvin is a bust.

[Admin]

That is my point exactly. Their numbers are very close but the perception is that Josh is a rising star and Marvin is a bust.

And it's truly sad because they are both very solid young players who continue to improve each year and yet we celebrate one and trash the other as if they are polar opposites.

Imagine if you took away Josh Smith's blocks and then try to envision what type of player he would be. To me that's the only real difference in their output on the court. Sure Josh Smith also excites the crowd on offense and his teammates but he also makes them go WTF quite often so those pretty much cancel each other out. So is the shotblocking difference enough to make Marvin look so bad while making Smoove look so good?

[crimedog]

That is my point exactly. Their numbers are very close but the perception is that Josh is a rising star and Marvin is a bust.

Their offensive numbers are similar, yet even Smith's staunchest supporters consider him EXTREMELY raw on offense and laud his defensive impact. That means that the most effective part of Marv's game is equal to the least effective part of Smith's game.

They are not equal as players. Your complaint would be valid if they had the same impact on the court or on our team's success but the bottom line is that they don't and it isn't particularly close.

I do agree that much of the hate towards Marv is irrational, which isn't really fair to him since he can't help that he was drafted ahead of better players, but your question makes it seem like the only difference between the two is where they were drafted when there is actually a very big difference in ability and responsibility on the court.

[Admin]

Their offensive numbers are similar, yet even Smith's staunchest supporters consider him EXTREMELY raw on offense and laud his defensive impact. That means that the most effective part of Marv's game is equal to the least effective part of Smith's game.

This only makes sense if you consider Marvin's offense to be better than his defense and it's not. Marvin doesn't make the highlight plays but he is (along with Joe) our best perimeter and man defender on the team although that could change depending on Evans and Speedy, but at least last year that was true. I think because he doesn't make the spectacular play that he doesn't get the credit from many fans for his defense. Josh Smith, on the other hand, makes many spectacular plays and his very poor man defense gets overlooked because of that. The worst part of that is he could be a very good man defender but too often he lets his man drive past him with the intention of blocking the shot and as we saw too often last year that just doesn't work all the time.

[crimedog]

This only makes sense if you consider Marvin's offense to be better than his defense and it's not. Marvin doesn't make the highlight plays but he is (along with Joe) our best perimeter and man defender on the team although that could change depending on Evans and Speedy, but at least last year that was true. I think because he doesn't make the spectacular play that he doesn't get the credit from many fans for his defense. Josh Smith, on the other hand, makes many spectacular plays and his very poor man defense gets overlooked because of that. The worst part of that is he could be a very good man defender but too often he lets his man drive past him with the intention of blocking the shot and as we saw too often last year that just doesn't work all the time.

Substantiate his "very poor" perimeter D.

Does his man often score more than his average? I think ex' has brought up the stat that before this past season (when Al and Josh would often switch so Smith could focus on help D) in 06-07, only two PFs scored higher than their season averages.

Can you think of any games where Smith was routinely abused?

Do the numbers say that Smith's help D is cancelled out by his man D? No, so either his help D is so out of this world that it makes up for his "very poor" man D or you are guilty of EXTREME hyperbole to back up a completely unsubstantiated implication that Smith and Marv are near equals as players.

Marv isn't a bad player, he tries hard and knows his role. He is not, however, the impact player that Smith is and that is bourne out in the numbers.

[Admin]

Substantiate his "very poor" perimeter D.

Does his man often score more than his average? I think ex' has brought up the stat that before this past season (when Al and Josh would often switch so Smith could focus on help D) in 06-07, only two PFs scored higher than their season averages.

Can you think of any games where Smith was routinely abused?

Do the numbers say that Smith's help D is cancelled out by his man D? No, so either his help D is so out of this world that it makes up for his "very poor" man D or you are guilty of EXTREME hyperbole to back up a completely unsubstantiated implication that Smith and Marv are near equals as players.

Marv isn't a bad player, he tries hard and knows his role. He is not, however, the impact player that Smith is and that is bourne out in the numbers.

1. I didn't say that Marvin was the impact player that Smith is. I don't think that anyone would make that claim.

2. I don't have any specific games to bring up since it's been so long but there were numerous times where Smith's man would drive past him and he would try for a block but would be too late. Actually, I do believe that Baron Davis did that to him many times in one of our games last year. Now I realize that Baron is a PG but he was still Josh Smith's responsibility on the switch and Golden State kept going to that play over and over and we couldn't stop it because Josh refused to try and keep him in front of him.

If you want to talk about a PF abusing him, just look at the Chicago game where Gooden went off on him in the 1st quarter for what, 20 points and had 31 on the game?

If you really believe that Josh Smith is a good perimeter defender then there is no sense in continuing this debate. He is a terrific shot blocker, a game changer, and can absolutely intimidate the other team with his defense, but perimeter D is the one area in which he is woefully inept.

[crimedog]

1. I didn't say that Marvin was the impact player that Smith is. I don't think that anyone would make that claim.

2. I don't have any specific games to bring up since it's been so long but there were numerous times where Smith's man would drive past him and he would try for a block but would be too late. Actually, I do believe that Baron Davis did that to him many times in one of our games last year. Now I realize that Baron is a PG but he was still Josh Smith's responsibility on the switch and Golden State kept going to that play over and over and we couldn't stop it because Josh refused to try and keep him in front of him.

If you want to talk about a PF abusing him, just look at the Chicago game where Gooden went off on him in the 1st quarter for what, 20 points and had 31 on the game?

If you really believe that Josh Smith is a good perimeter defender then there is no sense in continuing this debate. He is a terrific shot blocker, a game changer, and can absolutely intimidate the other team with his defense, but perimeter D is the one area in which he is woefully inept.

He's not a great perimeter defender. I'd never argue that. Of course Baron Davis drives past him. Baron Davis drives past every single player in the league, Barond Davis is a top penetrator in the league. Whenever a guy like Smith or Childress has to defend a speedy player like Davis, Rondo, Ford, Harris... they get lit up. That was why Childress looked so bad on offense last season. Bigs shouldn't have to defend point guards unless they are quick enough to do so... its the difference b/w "man D" which is what you said Smith was very poor at and "perimeter D" which you would expect a PF to be poor at.

So, yeah. Gooden's game would be a case of "man D", your criticism of Smith's man D was that he lets his man go by and Gooden hit his first 5 jumpers... not sure if Smith was on him... might have been bad D but are you going to tell me that he both lays off his man too much AND plays him too tight? No.

You said that Smith was a "very poor" man defender and gave but one example of where a player took advantage of him (by hitting a lot of midrange jumpers mind you). I will admit he's a poor perimeter defender, fortunately he doesn't defend the perimeter and unless you can come up with something other than a game where he didn't shut his man down, I'm going to have to call BS.

Just so you know what my argument is here. You claimed that Marv was (along with Joe) our best man defender and Smith's man defense is very poor but he gets "flashy" blocks. I'm just saying that if the difference in their man D was that pronounced, Smith wouldn't be leagues ahead of Marv in terms of impact on the court - which he inarguably is. Since the whole discussion is about why people like Smith more than Marv, I'm saying its because Smith is a significantly better player; they are, at worst, equal on offense and Smith has a much bigger impact on D.

Anyway, I don't mean to sound confrontational. The basic premise was summed up w/ this line "I have rarely seen 2 guys whose impact is similar whose perceptions are so different " and my point is that line is completely false because for whatever reason you want to choose, Smith's impact is far greater than Marv's regardless of where they were picked.

Edited September 2, 2008 by crimedog

[Admin]

He's not a great perimeter defender. I'd never argue that. Of course Baron Davis drives past him. Baron Davis drives past every single player in the league, Barond Davis is a top penetrator in the league. Whenever a guy like Smith or Childress has to defend a speedy player like Davis, Rondo, Ford, Harris... they get lit up. That was why Childress looked so bad on offense last season. Bigs shouldn't have to defend point guards unless they are quick enough to do so... its the difference b/w "man D" which is what you said Smith was very poor at and "perimeter D" which you would expect a PF to be poor at.

So, yeah. Gooden's game would be a case of "man D", your criticism of Smith's man D was that he lets his man go by and Gooden hit his first 5 jumpers... not sure if Smith was on him... might have been bad D but are you going to tell me that he both lays off his man too much AND plays him too tight? No.

You said that Smith was a "very poor" man defender and gave but one example of where a player took advantage of him (by hitting a lot of midrange jumpers mind you). I will admit he's a poor perimeter defender, fortunately he doesn't defend the perimeter and unless you can come up with something other than a game where he didn't shut his man down, I'm going to have to call BS.

Just so you know what my argument is here. You claimed that Marv was (along with Joe) our best man defender and Smith's man defense is very poor but he gets "flashy" blocks. I'm just saying that if the difference in their man D was that pronounced, Smith wouldn't be leagues ahead of Marv in terms of impact on the court - which he inarguably is. Since the whole discussion is about why people like Smith more than Marv, I'm saying its because Smith is a significantly better player; they are, at worst, equal on offense and Smith has a much bigger impact on D.

Anyway, I don't mean to sound confrontational. The basic premise was summed up w/ this line "I have rarely seen 2 guys whose impact is similar whose perceptions are so different " and my point is that line is completely false because for whatever reason you want to choose, Smith's impact is far greater than Marv's regardless of where they were picked.

Actually what I said was "Marvin doesn't make the highlight plays but he is (along with Joe) our best perimeter and man defender" and not just man defender and I should have said the inverse for Smith on both accounts as I do not believe him to be even average at either although he is better as a man defender in the paint than he is on the perimeter. To better define my point, Josh Smith is a very poor man defender on the perimeter, mainly because he has no desire to keep his man in front of him. He wants to make the spectacular play and even though I only provided you with the Baron Davis example it happened many times last year and with numerous players. I apologize if my memory isn't so great as to remember every match up from every game, but Baron was the one example that jumped out at me. I gave him a bit of a pass for Baron being a PG but when you run a switching defense and the opposing team continually attacks you then it might be time to play up on him and use your size advantage over him. Josh Smith will always favor going for the weak side block and in many cases (such as this) will look to set up the weak side block by letting his man drive past him. I also believe that it's a matter of lack of desire to keep his man in front of him rather than a lack of ability as I don't think there is anyone in the league that he couldn't keep in front of him if he really wanted to.

Regarding the Gooden game, Josh Smith most certainly started out guarding him and I believe Woody pulled him once Gooden got into double figures in the 1st quarter. Granted Gooden was on fire that game and most of his points came off of jump shots, but Josh wasn't playing him tight enough IMO.

Also, I don't believe that my point was that their impact is equal and their perceptions are so different. I believe that my point was that their output is equal and their perceptions are so different and the only area in which their impact on the game is so different is in shot blocking, which I don't believe is enough to give Josh Smith so much love while giving Marvin Williams so much hate.

At this point we'll just have to agree to disagree. I believe Marvin is equal or close to equal as far as offensive output with Josh Smith. I believe Marvin is a superior perimeter defender to Josh Smith and I also believe that Josh Smith has a much greater impact on the game. With all that being said, they should be seen as closer to equals (note I didn't say equals) to each other than they are around here.

[AtLaS]

That's comparing year 4 Josh Smith to year 3 Marvin Williams. Marvin makes it look even more in interesting if you compare their year 3's.

By the way, this is not me hating on Josh Smith, this is me cracking up at how some of you say such horrible things about Marvin and yet his numbers are equal, close to, or better Josh Smith in many categories all the while having all these horrific flaws.

How are their numbers equal other than Marvin scoring 3 less PPG? Marvins' PER is 14.5 compared to Smith's 19.0. Smith is a much better rebounder and overall defender. Smith is an impact player while Marvin constantly disappears after the first half and RARELY, if ever comes up clutch. Compare that to Smith who consistently made big plays (offensively and defensively) in the last 2 minutes of games and/or overtimes.

Marvin absolutely sucked in the playoffs while Smith at least had 3 pretty good games.

When Marvin is on the floor we are -3.5 as a team. When Smith is on the floor we are +4.3. Defensively we are 7 ppg BETTER with Smith on the floor, as opposed to 1.6 worse with Marvin on the floor. It is obvious who makes a MUCH bigger impact on the game.

Scoring wise, Smith is assisted 64% of the time compared to Marvin's 75% of the time. Again that shows Marvin's lack of aggression, I would much rather Smith not have to create shots.