Smoove love vs Marvin hate..Why?

[Admin]

How are their numbers equal other than Marvin scoring 3 less PPG? Marvins' PER is 14.5 compared to Smith's 19.0. Smith is a much better rebounder and overall defender. Smith is an impact player while Marvin constantly disappears after the first half and RARELY, if ever comes up clutch. Compare that to Smith who consistently made big plays (offensively and defensively) in the last 2 minutes of games and/or overtimes.

Marvin absolutely sucked in the playoffs while Smith at least had 3 pretty good games.

When Marvin is on the floor we are -3.5 as a team. When Smith is on the floor we are +4.3. Defensively we are 7 ppg BETTER with Smith on the floor, as opposed to 1.6 worse with Marvin on the floor. It is obvious who makes a MUCH bigger impact on the game.

Scoring wise, Smith is assisted 64% of the time compared to Marvin's 75% of the time. Again that shows Marvin's lack of aggression, I would much rather Smith not have to create shots.

First let me clarify by saying that I DO NOT think that Marvin is as good as Josh Smith and I DO NOT think that Marvin has the same impact on games as Josh Smith.

To answer your question, for one Smith only scores 2.4 PPG more (not 3) and if you take away put backs from Josh Smith naturally playing closer to the rim then Marvin also has a higher effective FG%. Marvin also shoots a better % on 2's and FT's and made more FTs in 100+ fewer minutes than Smith. Those are areas where Marvin is better than Josh Smith and again I'm not saying that Marvin is better than Josh Smith, I'm simply saying that they are much closer (other than shot blocking) than people around here give them credit for being.

Regarding your "Marvin sucked in the playoffs" I'd say he was pretty much consistently average on offense (other than a very good game 6) and solid on defense throughout while having to play Paul Pierce. Josh Smith was awesome in a couple of games and sucked in a few others and was average in the other one. The facts are that Josh Smith has the ability to be a superstar player while Marvin does not, yet Marvin is consistent and occasionally better while Josh Smith only plays up to his ability every other game. If Josh Smith were consistent at the level he should be playing at we wouldn't be having this discussion but the fact is that he has holes in his game as well.

[crimedog]

First let me clarify by saying that I DO NOT think that Marvin is as good as Josh Smith and I DO NOT think that Marvin has the same impact on games as Josh Smith.

To answer your question, for one Smith only scores 2.4 PPG more (not 3) and if you take away put backs from Josh Smith naturally playing closer to the rim then Marvin also has a higher effective FG%. Marvin also shoots a better % on 2's and FT's and made more FTs in 100+ fewer minutes than Smith. Those are areas where Marvin is better than Josh Smith and again I'm not saying that Marvin is better than Josh Smith, I'm simply saying that they are much closer (other than shot blocking) than people around here give them credit for being.

Regarding your "Marvin sucked in the playoffs" I'd say he was pretty much consistently average on offense (other than a very good game 6) and solid on defense throughout while having to play Paul Pierce. Josh Smith was awesome in a couple of games and sucked in a few others and was average in the other one. The facts are that Josh Smith has the ability to be a superstar player while Marvin does not, yet Marvin is consistent and occasionally better while Josh Smith only plays up to his ability every other game. If Josh Smith were consistent at the level he should be playing at we wouldn't be having this discussion but the fact is that he has holes in his game as well.

I think Atlas and I are responding more to the initial post that asked why two players with equal impact are viewed so differently. My response to that was just to say that there is no real argument that their impact is equal.

That being said, Marv does get too much hate. So does Josh though. With Marv it is because he is not Paul or Williams. With Smith it is because he is so raw still that his confidence tends to rub people the wrong way.

[EazyRoc]

They both suck.

:lol6:

Ok, so I'm joking.

Marvin is good, Smith is good. They're both young and they're both improving. I'm happy.

[DrReality]

I'd say it has something to do with their oncourt personalities. ????

[crimedog]

... and dolfan, in a league that started Boozer, Randolph, Dirk, Jamison, Lewis, Villenueva, Troy Murphy, Amare, Harrington, Wilcox, Tim Thomas, Hakim Warrick, Ryan Gomes, Kristic, Reggie Evans, and Mikki Moore at PF, Josh Smith is at the very worst a slightly above average man defender. He could do a lot better but to call him "below average" let alone "very poor" is misrepresentation.

[EazyRoc]

Smith just isn't a real scrappy, "blue collar" player. I speculate that he really doesn't want to be a big, and would rather be a 3. A lot of those guys might not be very good defenders, but at the same time, you would have a hard time saying Smith is better (as far as man defense, I mean) than them.

[Admin]

... and dolfan, in a league that started Boozer, Randolph, Dirk, Jamison, Lewis, Villenueva, Troy Murphy, Amare, Harrington, Wilcox, Tim Thomas, Hakim Warrick, Ryan Gomes, Kristic, Reggie Evans, and Mikki Moore at PF, Josh Smith is at the very worst a slightly above average man defender. He could do a lot better but to call him "below average" let alone "very poor" is misrepresentation.

Then allow me to rephrase. Josh Smith is a very poor perimeter man defender for what his talent level and athleticism suggest that he should be. Fair enough statement?

[crimedog]

Then allow me to rephrase. Josh Smith is a very poor perimeter man defender for what his talent level and athleticism suggest that he should be. Fair enough statement?

Sure, I agree that he should be second only to KG among PFs in defending the PnR.

[tmac13]

I think Atlas and I are responding more to the initial post that asked why two players with equal impact are viewed so differently. My response to that was just to say that there is no real argument that their impact is equal.

That being said, Marv does get too much hate. So does Josh though. With Marv it is because he is not Paul or Williams. With Smith it is because he is so raw still that his confidence tends to rub people the wrong way.

I think I probably worded my intial post poorly. For the record I believe that at this point Smoove is clearly the better player. That being said he is not so substantually better than Marvin to justify his almost universal praise as compared to Marvins day in and day out bashing.

[crimedog]

I think I probably worded my intial post poorly. For the record I believe that at this point Smoove is clearly the better player. That being said he is not so substantually better than Marvin to justify his almost universal praise as compared to Marvins day in and day out bashing.

Haha, it'll get worse before it gets better unless Marv is a legit all-star this season. Before Smith was resigned we had to hear about how dumb, unmotivated, and undisciplined he was. Same will happen with Marv over the course of the season. Right now, Al is a rookie coming off a nice season, he has been compared to Tim Duncan, Hakeem, and Shaq on this board... when people realize he is not that they will be hesitant to shell out big bucks for even HIM in a few years.

The thing is that as look put a lot of resources in a guy, you look for his flaws. When you know that the guy is locked in, you are goint to look at his strengths.

[mrhonline]

They both suck.

:lol6:

Ok, so I'm joking.

Marvin is good, Smith is good. They're both young and they're both improving. I'm happy.

:cupid: :love:

[PlayaPat420]

IMO, they will both be good players (and hopefully for this team) but Josh gets a pass on his negative impact to the team (TO's, bad shots, primadonna attitude) because he's from ATL and is a highlight reel, basically

Edited September 3, 2008 by PlayaPat420

[Diesel]

Both Smoove and Marvin are young 3/4 tweeners with strengths and weaknesses in their games. Smoove is a little over aggressive and Marvin is a little timid. Offensively they are a wash. Smoove averages 2 more points a game while taking 2 more shots a game. Smoove by virtue of his defensive assignment gets more rebounds as he is usually near the basket while Marv is usually on the perimeter. Smoove is a great shotblocker but is also prone to turn the ball over and take bad shots. Marvin is a much more vanilla player as he plays a much more conservatively and makes fewer mistakes. All and all these 2 guys are similar as far as positive impact on the court.

My question to the board is why Smoove is almost universally beloved by Hawks fans and why is Marvin the constant target of naysayers. Is it because of who we passed over to draft Marvin? If we had passed over Chris Paul and Deron Williams to draft Smoove would he be constantly compared to those 2 or would he still be loved? Is it because Smoove is a local kid that was a low risk draft choice that paid off handsomely? Is it because Smoove is flashy and Marvin isn't? I am interested in the opinions of others here on this subject. I have rarely seen 2 guys whose impact is similar whose perceptions are so different

The simple truth is that Smoove is an impact player. Marvin is not.

ATLiens love Smoove for the same reason we loved Deke. For the Same reason we loved Mookie. For the same reason we loved Smitty. For the same reason we loved Nique.

These guys are impact players. when they are in the game, they make a difference (somehow). Who didn't like when Mookie would stymie the other team's PG and steal the ball and wreak havoc. If the truth is known, Marvin and Rumeal Robinson has NON-Impact in common. Neither of those guys could change the flow of a game. And Rumeal wasn't that bad, he just wasn't impactful at all.

Who didn't like when Mutombo would block a shot and wave the finger? Or when he had blocked so many shots that the other team had their head on a swivel coming down the lane. Corbin and Long were more workmen like players, but their impact was not as great.

I think there's some contribution from him not being CP3 or Deron... but mainly, he's not impacting any games he plays in.. and really it looks like he's just to timid to do so. How do you only show up in front of your home crowd? That was the last and only time Marvin made an impact in a game.

[Diesel]

Actually what I said was "Marvin doesn't make the highlight plays but he is (along with Joe) our best perimeter and man defender" and not just man defender and I should have said the inverse for Smith on both accounts as I do not believe him to be even average at either although he is better as a man defender in the paint than he is on the perimeter.

This is hilarious.

So, in other words, because he's a better perimeter defender than Bibby... he's our best perimeter and man defender?

Come on Dol, let's tell the whole truth here.

Bibby sucks on defense.

Smoove is not a great man defender because he's too busy trying to cover Bibby and Zaza.

Horford is young but will probably be a better man defender than Marv this year.

In other words, Marvin is nothing special on defense. Definitely not impactful. You overstate Marvin's defense everytime. He's not a defensive stopper. He's not a Bruce Bowen. He's not even halfway feared throughout the league. He's fantastically mediocre. This is the case of the one-eyed man in the land of the blind. I don't call that something that makes him unexpendable or even talented. He's a mediocre defender on a team filled with bad defenders.

[crimedog]

I'm not sure why this turned into a Marv v. Smith thread.

In this thread alone we've had Smith called soft and a primadonna. Three weeks ago half the board wanted him shipped off for Chris Kaman.

There are two players who get free passes around here, Joe and Al. Everyone else has more than their fair share of detractors. D just happens to be the most prolific poster here and he isn't so much of a Marvin fan so it seems like Marv gets a lot more hate than he actually does.

[Admin]

I'm not sure why this turned into a Marv v. Smith thread.

Isn't the title of this thread "Smoove love vs Marvin hate .. Why?"

In this thread alone we've had Smith called soft and a primadonna. Three weeks ago half the board wanted him shipped off for Chris Kaman.

I was unable to find anywhere in the thread where he was called soft or a primadonna. Where did you see that?

Prior to his re-signing I think a large portion of the board felt like we had no chance to get him back and were looking for the best possible (potentially available) replacements for him and Kaman is high on that list. There's no harm in looking at alternatives in case we couldn't bring him back. I highly doubt that more than 1-2 posters here would actually trade Smoove for Kaman now that we have him back in the fold.

There are two players who get free passes around here, Joe and Al. Everyone else has more than their fair share of detractors. D just happens to be the most prolific poster here and he isn't so much of a Marvin fan so it seems like Marv gets a lot more hate than he actually does.

Joe and Al have received their fair share of criticism, hell last year a large number of people were calling for his head and wanting him traded. Horford doesn't get a ton of criticism just yet, but he's a rookie (at least until the season starts) and quite frankly the best rookie we've had since .... ?? so it's easy to see why he gets a little slack.

Marvin gets A LOT for more hate than anyone on this team does. Smoove does get some hate but nowhere near the level that Marvin does and Marvin doesn't get anywhere near the level of praise that Smoove does either.

I realize that you've only been a member here a few months but if you had been here every day for the past 4-5 years you'd see why many people are tiring of the Marvin hate.

[crimedog]

Isn't the title of this thread "Smoove love vs Marvin hate .. Why?"

I was unable to find anywhere in the thread where he was called soft or a primadonna. Where did you see that?

Prior to his re-signing I think a large portion of the board felt like we had no chance to get him back and were looking for the best possible (potentially available) replacements for him and Kaman is high on that list. There's no harm in looking at alternatives in case we couldn't bring him back. I highly doubt that more than 1-2 posters here would actually trade Smoove for Kaman now that we have him back in the fold.

Joe and Al have received their fair share of criticism, hell last year a large number of people were calling for his head and wanting him traded. Horford doesn't get a ton of criticism just yet, but he's a rookie (at least until the season starts) and quite frankly the best rookie we've had since .... ?? so it's easy to see why he gets a little slack.

Marvin gets A LOT for more hate than anyone on this team does. Smoove does get some hate but nowhere near the level that Marvin does and Marvin doesn't get anywhere near the level of praise that Smoove does either.

I realize that you've only been a member here a few months but if you had been here every day for the past 4-5 years you'd see why many people are tiring of the Marvin hate.

I meant in terms of Marv v. Smith in terms of impact and ability. I see what you are saying there though.

anyway:

"Smith just isn't a real scrappy, "blue collar" player. I speculate that he really doesn't want to be a big, and would rather be a 3. A lot of those guys might not be very good defenders, but at the same time, you would have a hard time saying Smith is better (as far as man defense, I mean) than them. "

"IMO, they will both be good players (and hopefully for this team) but Josh gets a pass on his negative impact to the team (TO's, bad shots, primadonna attitude) because he's from ATL and is a highlight reel, basically"

... and you were missing my point but sort of reinforced it.

How players are viewed largely has to do with context. When you guys wanted to move Smith for Kaman (and there were a LOT of people who WANTED that, not would have been happy with it), all we heard about were turnovers and ugly jump shots. Now that we have Smith locked up, we talk about the amazing help D and athletic scoring around the hoop.

When Joe was shooting 39% for halft the season, people weren't happy but he hit the gas for a couple months and had a nice playoff run and you have people saying that outside of Kobe the only two guard they'd even consider for the team over Joe would be Wade... people saying that Manu isn't even close to Joe.

Al was a rookie, and a very good one. I said earlier in this thread that while he is this young and locked in for a while, we are only going to see the upside. If he doesn't turn into an elite offensive player, regardless of whatever else he is there will be people who get overly critical of him come contract time.

During Smith's contract stuff, the only player we talked about was Smith (and by extension Horford because people were convinced that pairing Horford with a different center would make him Karl Malone). No one except D mentioned Marv during that month or two. Now that Smith's contract is wrapped up the only player to talk about is Marv because he will be RFA next season and people are deciding whether they want him as part of the core long term.

Again, Marv does get an irrational amount of hate but the premise of this thread is: why does Marv get universally hated and Smith universally loved (with "universal" being the most recent phrasing by the OP)? My thought is that neither one of those assertions is true. If you are arguing something else, that Marv gets too much criticism and Smith gets enough criticism, than I agree. I just disagree with the two theses that have been put forward by the OP: first that they have equal impact but aren't treated equally (we all disagree with that premise and second that Smith is universally loved and Marv universally hated (please don't tell me you disagree with that... you know how easy it would be to prove that wrong).

[uga2006]

#1 - Smith is from the ATL and plays for the Hawks

#2- Smith was picked at 17 not #2.

#3-Smith is the only defensive presence we have

The list goes on and on

[Admin]

I meant in terms of Marv v. Smith in terms of impact and ability. I see what you are saying there though.

anyway:

"Smith just isn't a real scrappy, "blue collar" player. I speculate that he really doesn't want to be a big, and would rather be a 3. A lot of those guys might not be very good defenders, but at the same time, you would have a hard time saying Smith is better (as far as man defense, I mean) than them. "

"IMO, they will both be good players (and hopefully for this team) but Josh gets a pass on his negative impact to the team (TO's, bad shots, primadonna attitude) because he's from ATL and is a highlight reel, basically"

... and you were missing my point but sort of reinforced it.

How players are viewed largely has to do with context. When you guys wanted to move Smith for Kaman (and there were a LOT of people who WANTED that, not would have been happy with it), all we heard about were turnovers and ugly jump shots. Now that we have Smith locked up, we talk about the amazing help D and athletic scoring around the hoop.

When Joe was shooting 39% for halft the season, people weren't happy but he hit the gas for a couple months and had a nice playoff run and you have people saying that outside of Kobe the only two guard they'd even consider for the team over Joe would be Wade... people saying that Manu isn't even close to Joe.

Al was a rookie, and a very good one. I said earlier in this thread that while he is this young and locked in for a while, we are only going to see the upside. If he doesn't turn into an elite offensive player, regardless of whatever else he is there will be people who get overly critical of him come contract time.

During Smith's contract stuff, the only player we talked about was Smith (and by extension Horford because people were convinced that pairing Horford with a different center would make him Karl Malone). No one except D mentioned Marv during that month or two. Now that Smith's contract is wrapped up the only player to talk about is Marv because he will be RFA next season and people are deciding whether they want him as part of the core long term.

Again, Marv does get an irrational amount of hate but the premise of this thread is: why does Marv get universally hated and Smith universally loved (with "universal" being the most recent phrasing by the OP)? My thought is that neither one of those assertions is true. If you are arguing something else, that Marv gets too much criticism and Smith gets enough criticism, than I agree. I just disagree with the two theses that have been put forward by the OP: first that they have equal impact but aren't treated equally (we all disagree with that premise and second that Smith is universally loved and Marv universally hated (please don't tell me you disagree with that... you know how easy it would be to prove that wrong).

Sorry, I missed the "primadonna" part in the thread. Damn Firefox search! I certainly don't think of him that way, although he is definitely a very emotional player that has shown a tendency to sulk. He also has the tendency to get so into a game that he completely takes over on both ends, so I'll take the bad with the good there.

As I said above, I don't think there are really more than a couple who would trade Kaman for Smoove and even then I think it has more to do with people wanting Horford at the 4 which would naturally mean Smith would be traded for a 5.

Al will most definitely start to receive more criticism unless he becomes the next Karl Malone or someone like that and even then, there will probably still be doubters.

Certainly universal is not a safe way to describe any feeling towards any of our players since even Nique had naysayers who didn't think he was all that so I'll agree that there isn't a universal hate or love for either of those players. Marvin gets a disproportionate amount of hate, regardless of whether it's his contract year or not. Going all the way back to when he was at UNC and was considered for our pick people were hating on him for one thing or another and Smoove has had a disproportionate amount of love, with an absurd amount of people having Smith, Smoove, etc in their username's here to illustrate that point. Hell I don't even think we've got a single member with "Marvin" or "Williams" in their username. - and I can now confirm that to be true. Only one user with "williams" in their name, that being "Freemanwilliams" and he registered in 03 and has 2 posts so I sincerely doubt that relates to Marvin. On the contrary, we have 14 members with Smoove or Smith in their username.

[crimedog]

Sorry, I missed the "primadonna" part in the thread. Damn Firefox search! I certainly don't think of him that way, although he is definitely a very emotional player that has shown a tendency to sulk. He also has the tendency to get so into a game that he completely takes over on both ends, so I'll take the bad with the good there.

As I said above, I don't think there are really more than a couple who would trade Kaman for Smoove and even then I think it has more to do with people wanting Horford at the 4 which would naturally mean Smith would be traded for a 5.

Al will most definitely start to receive more criticism unless he becomes the next Karl Malone or someone like that and even then, there will probably still be doubters.

Certainly universal is not a safe way to describe any feeling towards any of our players since even Nique had naysayers who didn't think he was all that so I'll agree that there isn't a universal hate or love for either of those players. Marvin gets a disproportionate amount of hate, regardless of whether it's his contract year or not. Going all the way back to when he was at UNC and was considered for our pick people were hating on him for one thing or another and Smoove has had a disproportionate amount of love, with an absurd amount of people having Smith, Smoove, etc in their username's here to illustrate that point. Hell I don't even think we've got a single member with "Marvin" or "Williams" in their username. - and I can now confirm that to be true. Only one user with "williams" in their name, that being "Freemanwilliams" and he registered in 03 and has 2 posts so I sincerely doubt that relates to Marvin. On the contrary, we have 14 members with Smoove or Smith in their username.

I guess we are in agreement about Marv. Just curious, how many people have "Joe, JJ" or "Horford, Al" in their names? I'd imagine those are the only three guys who are repped by people.