Smoove love vs Marvin hate..Why?

[AtLaS]

Smith just isn't a real scrappy, "blue collar" player. I speculate that he really doesn't want to be a big, and would rather be a 3.

So why would Smith work with Hakeem all summer and put on weight trying to get bigger?

A lot of those guys might not be very good defenders, but at the same time, you would have a hard time saying Smith is better (as far as man defense, I mean) than them.

Actually you wouldn't. Smith is a top 10 PF defender (top 5 IMO) in the NBA, easily. Not to mention, help defense is AT LEAST as important as man, if not more. There is a reason the Hawks defense is 7 ppg better with Smith on the floor which is among the tops in the league. There is a reason KG absolutely abused Horford when Horford guarded him, but when Smith was put on him in the playoffs he scored less points, and got fewer rebounds on lower FG% against Smith.

People talk all the time about how Smith is a bad MAN defender because they see him on a daily basis, so we see EVERY time that he gets scored on. Watch other players who you consider great defenders as well, Tim Duncan, Jermaine O'Neal, Artest, Bowen ALL get constantly scored on as well. KG gave up two HUGE games to Josh Smith in the playoffs. Reason being is that these guys are all guarding professional players, and professionals will score the ball. The only thing you can hope for as a defender in the NBA is to make someone shoot a lower percentage than their average. Most of the time, Smith does that.

Edited September 3, 2008 by AtLaS

[AtLaS]

Hell I don't even think we've got a single member with "Marvin" or "Williams" in their username. - and I can now confirm that to be true.

Remember MW24?? I think he changed his name though.

[Admin]

I guess we are in agreement about Marv. Just curious, how many people have "Joe, JJ" or "Horford, Al" in their names? I'd imagine those are the only three guys who are repped by people.

There are 8 people with "Joe" in their names, but 5 of them appear to be people's real name.

There are 10 people with "JJ" in their names, but only 3-4 of them appear to be JJ related.

There are also 3 with "Horford" and one of those is a "JJHorford" combo.

[High5]

Smith is an impact player, Marvin is just there most of the time. He'll hit the occasional open jump shot, he draw a couple of fouls and once in a blue moon he'll make a really exciting play. Meanwhile you have Smith blocking shots, slamming down alley-oops, picking pockets, racking up assists, pulling down impressive boards, getting to the line and hitting the occasional clutch jump shot. Both have their faults for sure, but you really can't make an argument that their impact is even close to the same.

Then you factor in that one was the 17th pick and the 2nd or 3rd best player of his draft, the other was the 2nd pick and picked ahead of two franchise point guards who would have been so much better for the team. The fact that a small miracle happened when we landed Horford eases the pain of that '05 draft a bit, but it's still there.

[thesheedera]

When Josh Smith is having a bad game, he still contributes.

When Marvin Williams is having a bad game, you don't see him doing anything at all.

I'd put it this way:

When Josh Smith is having a great game, we're almost unstoppable.

Marvin rarely has a great game.

When Josh Smith is having a good game it helps us win, and it gets fans excited.

When Marvin is having a good game it helps us win as much as good JS games help us win, but it isn't as exciting to watch.

When Josh Smith appears indifferent, he doesn't help or hurt the team. He's rarely indifferent.

When Marvin appears extremely passive, he doesn't help or hurt the team. He's more often extremely passive than Smith is indifferent.

When Josh Smith is having a BAD game, he can really disrupt the team and cause us to lose. It doesn't happen often, but when it does it's crystal clear and destroys more of his built up good will than it probably should.

When Marvin is having a BAD game, it hurts the team to some degree but it isn't significantly worse than the effect of his extremely passive games.

Smith is currently the better player with more upside and marketability. He's impact is more volatile with spikes of highs and lows. He can REALLY help you, but he can REALLY hurt you. Luckily for us the peaks far outnumber the valleys, and because he's such a young guy still, logic suggests that the trend will continue to accelerate towards the positive.

Marvin has a steadier impact, but his peaks are not close to Josh's peaks and his valleys aren't as low as Josh's valleys. Most of us would accept more valleys from him if it meant a lot more peaks, but ideally his entire curve would rise and his steadiness would remain the same.

These two guys are ABSOLUTELY compatible, and their yin-yang could be a perfect combo if they can both trend in the right direction. Even if Josh remains as he is, we'll get plenty out of him. If Marvin remains as he is, we would be better off without him.

[EazyRoc]

So why would Smith work with Hakeem all summer and put on weight trying to get bigger?

Actually you wouldn't. Smith is a top 10 PF defender (top 5 IMO) in the NBA, easily. Not to mention, help defense is AT LEAST as important as man, if not more. There is a reason the Hawks defense is 7 ppg better with Smith on the floor which is among the tops in the league. There is a reason KG absolutely abused Horford when Horford guarded him, but when Smith was put on him in the playoffs he scored less points, and got fewer rebounds on lower FG% against Smith.

People talk all the time about how Smith is a bad MAN defender because they see him on a daily basis, so we see EVERY time that he gets scored on. Watch other players who you consider great defenders as well, Tim Duncan, Jermaine O'Neal, Artest, Bowen ALL get constantly scored on as well. KG gave up two HUGE games to Josh Smith in the playoffs. Reason being is that these guys are all guarding professional players, and professionals will score the ball. The only thing you can hope for as a defender in the NBA is to make someone shoot a lower percentage than their average. Most of the time, Smith does that.

Because Josh Smith is a better PF than a SF, mainly. I think if you gave Josh Smith a choice, I'd think he would pick SF. Of course, that is just my opinion.

I'm not taking away from his impact defensively, but he does have a weakpoint. During the season, he wasn't playing good man defense in my opinion. In the last month or so in the season, when it was win or go home, his man D started to get better. Also, he became a more aggressive rebounder. Like I said in another post in this thread, I'm happy with both Josh Smith and Marvin Williams. I thought about trading both players in certain situations, but who doesn't talk about trade scenarios in the offseason ?

[AtLaS]

When Josh Smith is having a BAD game, he can really disrupt the team and cause us to lose. It doesn't happen often, but when it does it's crystal clear and destroys more of his built up good will than it probably should.

When Marvin is having a BAD game, it hurts the team to some degree but it isn't significantly worse than the effect of his extremely passive games.

Of course, because Smith is a VITAL cog to our success. Marvin isn't. Marvin doesn't have huge impacts on games anyway so when he has a terrible game it doesn't effect us too much. Smith does, so when he has a terrible game the Hawks will usually lose. Same with Joe when he has a 5/20 night or something.

Smith is our 2nd best player. Marvin is, at best 4th. Do you think a team like the Lakers will suffer more when their 2nd best player has a terrible game (Gasol) or their 4th best (Fisher, Farmar, etc..) has a terrible game? The former is obviously true.

[AtLaS]

Because Josh Smith is a better PF than a SF, mainly. I think if you gave Josh Smith a choice, I'd think he would pick SF. Of course, that is just my opinion.

Well that's pure guess so there's no reason to assume that. Only Josh knows the answer to that.

I'm not taking away from his impact defensively, but he does have a weakpoint. During the season, he wasn't playing good man defense in my opinion. In the last month or so in the season, when it was win or go home, his man D started to get better. Also, he became a more aggressive rebounder. Like I said in another post in this thread, I'm happy with both Josh Smith and Marvin Williams.

Well, he did have a few bad games, most notably the game against the Cavs when Gooden went off. But, some of those shots were ridiculous NBA Jam fire shots that normally wouldn't have a prayer. But regardless he didn't play good D that night.

But, again my point is that you see him play every night. And, you're rooting for the Hawks to win EVERY night, so every time an opposing team gets a basket underneath, you see who's standing right there and it will leave a bad impression. If you were rooting for any other team of some of these other great defenders, you'd see that the same things constantly happen to them as well. This also doesn't take into account factors such as foul trouble, when he is purposely not trying to foul because of our TERRIBLE lack of depth at the big man positions. If he goes out we are really screwed. He may be told to not be all over the offensive player late in games with a certain amount of fouls.

[EazyRoc]

Well, like I said, it's just speculation. I'm not an inside source on Josh Smith, but this is just what I gather when I watch Smith.e

[Admin]

Well that's pure guess so there's no reason to assume that. Only Josh knows the answer to that.

Actually Josh Smith has said in the past that he prefers to play the 3. It's been a couple of years but there's probably an article out there where he says it. I don't really care where he prefers to play as long as he does what's needed, but I do wish he'd spend less time on the perimeter and park his butt in the paint.

[crimedog]

Actually Josh Smith has said in the past that he prefers to play the 3. It's been a couple of years but there's probably an article out there where he says it. I don't really care where he prefers to play as long as he does what's needed, but I do wish he'd spend less time on the perimeter and park his butt in the paint.

I remember that. I also remember more recently and article where Smith and Speedy were talking about making the all-D team and Smith mentioned he took pride in being a power player. I believe both articles were ajc but that is a very unsearchable website.

[Red Hawk #21]

What kills me about all of this is why Marvin should be "Hated'', if we are atlanta hawk fans should we hate anyone on our team? If anything you hope that the person gets better, personally I don't think much of Woody but I don't hate him either. Im always praying that he becomes a better coach though, Same thing with Marvin. He doesn't have much impact on games but I can see some flashes in him though. I hope all my fellow Hawk fans also open their eyes and see that Marvin has potential, don't let your hate blind you...

[crimedog]

What kills me about all of this is why Marvin should be "Hated'', if we are atlanta hawk fans should we hate anyone on our team? If anything you hope that the person gets better, personally I don't think much of Woody but I don't hate him either. Im always praying that he becomes a better coach though, Same thing with Marvin. He doesn't have much impact on games but I can see some flashes in him though. I hope all my fellow Hawk fans also open their eyes and see that Marvin has potential, don't let your hate blind you...

Some people get carried away but most of us want Marv to reach his ceiling, regardless of whether we disagree how high his ceiling actually is.

[Red Hawk #21]

Some people get carried away but most of us want Marv to reach his ceiling, regardless of whether we disagree how high his ceiling actually is.

I hope so, sometimes I fear some people actually want this guy to fail. Personally I think he can be a player similar to Shawn Marion. A High Energy guy who uses his Athleticism to his fullest, always remember that Marion is also not a great ball handler or shooter but he was still an all star when he was with the Suns

[TroyMcClure]

Actually Josh Smith has said in the past that he prefers to play the 3. It's been a couple of years but there's probably an article out there where he says it. I don't really care where he prefers to play as long as he does what's needed, but I do wish he'd spend less time on the perimeter and park his butt in the paint.

That one of the main reasons I've always wanted him there. Where someone wants to be and feels comfortable at, is an important thing. He would be a fine SF if we had a real coach. Any defensive problems are cured with a zone. Honestly, I like his defense in the half court game from there. He can come off the ball with freedom to challeng shots. He has better instincts blocking that way, imo. He's also more likely to be a fast break finisher coming from there, as opposed to a starter from the paint. One of Smoove's problems is when he grabs a board and starts dribbling trying to make something happen. I don't hate Marvin. But I would trade him for a big body, tall center. That would allow us to play Josh at SF. I just don't think Marvin has the desire to ever truly make things happen for us. I hope I'm wrong.