Backup Minutes

[Guest]

Law has shown he can stay in front of the Rondos of the NBA. Neither Flip or Bibby can do that. Hence, Law is the best defensive pG on the team.

So there is only one aspect of defense at PG and that is staying in front of your man? Wow, what a narrow description. We could look at eFG% against for both Flip and Law:

eFG% against Law at point is .463

http://www.82games.com/0809/08ATL1.HTM#bypos

eFG% against Murray at point is .266

http://www.82games.com/0809/08ATL4.HTM#bypos

But I guess how well someone shoots against you isn't defense, just staying in front of the man is most important.

[mrhonline]

Bibby is an atrocious defender. He usually tries hard, but he's simply not quick or long enough.

Law is a poor defender. He's really not got a whole lot of defensive IQ, to be honest.

Murray is at worst an average defender. He's quick enough and usually plays smart defense. He's plenty long enough at the 1.

And, for all the Murray naysayers, his +/- is twice what Acie's is...

[coachx]

Bibby is an atrocious defender. He usually tries hard, but he's simply not quick or long enough.

Law is a poor defender. He's really not got a whole lot of defensive IQ, to be honest.

Murray is at worst an average defender. He's quick enough and usually plays smart defense. He's plenty long enough at the 1.

And, for all the Murray naysayers, his +/- is twice what Acie's is...

I agree with that, Flip is a solid defender at the PG position.

However, Law normally sees 7 minutes and then he is back to the bench no martter if he is playing well or poor. Let him play PG with Flip at SG for 12 minutes a night to rest JJ some what.

Wile Woody only gives Law 7 minutes a night if he is lucky (not counting garbage time) ............Flip on the other hand gets his 20 minutes guaranteed no matter how he is playing, good or bad. Even when Flip is ice cold and doing his turnover machine impression, Woody will stick with him AS A PG NO LESS ! Woody does not give Law that some chance.

As a player its much easier to perform when given consistent minutes rather then playing on egg shells b/c you know the hook is right around the corner. You start playing to not make mistakes rather then just "trusting your game." (as Mark Jackson says)

I would like to see the percentage of times that Flip, as a PG, jacks up a shot without passing in the possesion......or how many times his 1st pass is with lesss then 10 seconds on the shot clock. I have seen Flip dribble down the court, probe for his own shot, only to call a play with 8 seconds on the shot clock. Horford then throws his hands up and says WTF ! Coach Donnon at UF, would have never let this street baller play PG ! I know that the number of Flip's first passes inside 10 seconds on the shot clock would be incredibally high for a "PG." There are 4 other guys who just stand around when Flip's playing the point b/c they no the chances of the ball coming to them is slim. Flip at PG = ugly offense unless it is the 2 out of 5 games Flip's shot is hot.....and then its still ugly offense but "bad shots" sometimes fall to camouflage that fools gold.

Flip is more effective on offense as a scorer / SG and not as a PG. That should not even be a debate. However, I do agree he has been a effective defender at the PG position. I just believe that if Law was given some time to play PG (more then 7 mpg) we would see a solid defender in him as well AND a player who plays offense as PG should.

With Bibby approaching 31 and free agency, we need to know what we have in Law. We know who Flip is.

All I want is for Law to have a more leash to play with and for Flip to have a little less. Let them have the same amount of leash, so to speak.

[Cwell]

Bibby is an atrocious defender. He usually tries hard, but he's simply not quick or long enough.

Law is a poor defender. He's really not got a whole lot of defensive IQ, to be honest.

Murray is at worst an average defender. He's quick enough and usually plays smart defense. He's plenty long enough at the 1.

And, for all the Murray naysayers, his +/- is twice what Acie's is...

those stats mean nothing as long as Flip is getting 20 MPG and Acie is barely getting a chance to do anything on the floor.

[Gray Mule]

Developing Acie:

Limit his minutes - Yes.

Start him! Give him his minutes, how ever many or few he is to get, with the

starting five (Four plus Acie). Why?

Because the other four are the best four, supposedly, that put on the Hawks

uniform. If he is to grow and develop, he should do it with the best we have.

When he's in the game with Flip, he has no chance of doing anything. Let Acie

play with JJ as the 2 guard. Bring Bibby in as soon as Acie gets his minutes

in the first and third quarter. 7 1/2 minutes in each half would give him 15 for

each game.

[Swatguy]

Some of you guys really don't get it. Flip is without a doubt better than Law. Flip brings the swagger and neccessary attitude missing on this team. We would not be successful without Flip and Bibby's veteran leadership. If Hawksquawk could peep a practice or visit with someone close you could appreciate what Flip, Mo and Bibs bring to this team.

Flip is a Godsend.

Edited December 23, 2008 by Swatguy

[Cwell]

Some of you guys really don't get it. Flip is without a doubt better than Law. Flip brings the swagger and neccessary attitude missing on this team. We would not be successful without Flip and Bibby's veteran leadership. If Hawksquawk could peep a practice or visit with someone close you could appreciate what Flip, Mo and Bibs bring to this team.

Flip is a Godsend.

without a doubt no he isn't. Give them the same minutes with the same leash and Law would outplay him,especially as a PG. They shouldn't be compared anyway. Flip is a SG, Acie is a PG. Flip shouldn't be affecting Acie anyway.

Edited December 23, 2008 by Cwell

[tonegully]

FLOP should be JJs sub. I hate when we have JJ and FLOP at the same time. To me it makes no sense what so ever.

Acie should be the 1 in case Bibby is cold , to change the tempo, or for defensive match ups. Its so much we could do with our players.

I think a coach owes it to his players to let them shoot themselves in the foot first. Instead of not letting them shoot at all.

[Gray Mule]

Vets: Bibby & Flip. Let them play in crunch time. End the second quarter

and the 4th quarter. That's another reason to have Acie start the first

and third quarters.

If Acie knows that he has his limited minutes scheduled, he won't be

pressing and looking over his sholdier. He can relax and do his

thing with the starting unit.

The old vet, Bibby gets his minutes either way and so does Flip.

We once had a player who started like this. He was nearly always

pulled as soon as someone called the first time out. He didn't get

a lot of playing time.

[Cwell]

Vets: Bibby & Flip. Let them play in crunch time. End the second quarter

and the 4th quarter. That's another reason to have Acie start the first

and third quarters.

If Acie knows that he has his limited minutes scheduled, he won't be

pressing and looking over his sholdier. He can relax and do his

thing with the starting unit.

The old vet, Bibby gets his minutes either way and so does Flip.

We once had a player who started like this. He was nearly always

pulled as soon as someone called the first time out. He didn't get

a lot of playing time.

Ivey always came out at the 6 minute mark for Lue, and the game always went downhill from there,stupid Woody.

[exodus]

I think it may be a bit early in the season to be using many 82games.com stats. However i will assume they are valid just for the sake of argument.

Opponents are scoring 1.2 ppg fewer when Law is playing which is the best mark among the pgs. I don't think defense is his problem.

The problem is that the Hawks are scoring 9.5 less when he is playing. That is a pretty big number. He is going to have to be able to some jumpers at least at an average rate. He also needs to do a better job finishing inside. he gets his shot blocked too often. I see other pgs shoot layups high off the glass all the time but i have never seen Acie do it.

[crimedog]

I think it may be a bit early in the season to be using many 82games.com stats. However i will assume they are valid just for the sake of argument.

Opponents are scoring 1.2 ppg fewer when Law is playing which is the best mark among the pgs. I don't think defense is his problem.

The problem is that the Hawks are scoring 9.5 less when he is playing. That is a pretty big number. He is going to have to be able to some jumpers at least at an average rate. He also needs to do a better job finishing inside. he gets his shot blocked too often. I see other pgs shoot layups high off the glass all the time but i have never seen Acie do it.

At first I thought it had to be a sample size error but then I saw he's played a decent enough amount of minutes for those stats to stick. The problem was that I wasn't remembering how many times he came in and just looked lost.

To be fair to him, he's a really poor fit next to Joe and Joe plays a ton of minutes.

[exodus]

At first I thought it had to be a sample size error but then I saw he's played a decent enough amount of minutes for those stats to stick. The problem was that I wasn't remembering how many times he came in and just looked lost.

To be fair to him, he's a really poor fit next to Joe and Joe plays a ton of minutes.

Actually he is a poor fit next to flip. He plays with Flip far more than he plays with Joe.

Here is a breakdown of how Acie plays with each of the other players.

http://www.82games.com/0809/0809ATLP.HTM

[coachx]

At first I thought it had to be a sample size error but then I saw he's played a decent enough amount of minutes for those stats to stick. The problem was that I wasn't remembering how many times he came in and just looked lost.

To be fair to him, he's a really poor fit next to Joe and Joe plays a ton of minutes.

The chart Ex posted showing how players perform with given teamates shows alot !

When Law plays, the starters are seldom on the floor with him. THE 3 PLAYERS HE HAS PLAYED THE MOST WITH ARE EVANS, FLIP, AND SOLO. THE 5TH PLAYER HE PLAYED THE MOST WITH IS ZAZA. SO 4 OUT OF THE 5 PLAYERS LAW HAS LOGGED THE MOST MINUTES WITH ARE ALL BENCH GUYS ! He is left with either ZaZa or Solo to anchor the team at the center postion. That would directly attribute to the low team offensive point out put with Law on the floor, one would assume.

Meanwhile, the 4 guys Flip plays the most with are: JJ, Marvin, Horford, and Evans. How does such thing happen ?

So let me get his right. Flip gets to play with 3 starters and our 6th man most of the time and with Horford to anchor the team at center. Mean while, Law is left to play with bench guys and ZaZa or Solo to anchor the team at center. THE MAIN JOB OF A COACH IS TO SET YOUR 1ST ROUND PICKS UP FOR SUCCESS AND NOT FAILURE ! BY PLAYING LAW WITH INFEREIOR TALENT, THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME, HE IS SETTING LAW UP TO FAIL. Make it easier on the kid and let him play with some talent around him ! Graymule made a good point about this earlier..........though I'm not for starting Law 6 token minutes as he is........... even though it would solve this dilema.

No knock to Bibby. I'm happy with him as the starter. His shooting ability has allowed him to develope great chemistry to play off JJ and bail the team out when they can't get good looks in the paint.............. I'd just prefer to see Flip used as a SG more and Law get a chance at PG. With them playing a few minutes together we could realy turn up the tempo and run more then with Bibby at the helm.

For a 4-5 minutes stretch, we could go small with Bibby or Flip at SG, JJ at SF, and Marvin at PF..............They could spread the floor with their ability to shoot the 3 and really open things up for Law to get in the paint and create some havoc and open looks for others. When you look at the few minutes that Law and Bibby did play toether the team was quite succesful.

Of course that messes with Woody's slow it down, defensive philosophy, which seems to be producing that 17 W / 10 L record. So should we not try to fix something that is not yet broken. At the very least, on nights where we struggle to score, I'd like to see some stirring of the pot with some actual offensive coaching adjustments.

Bibby will have a 3 -5 game cold stretch where his shot won't fall........all shooters alwayse do, even JJ does. When that happens I don't want to have to rely on a street baller to run the team . Law should get some burn so that he will be ready !

Edited December 23, 2008 by coachx

[coachx]

Actually he is a poor fit next to flip. He plays with Flip far more than he plays with Joe.

Here is a breakdown of how Acie plays with each of the other players.

http://www.82games.com/0809/0809ATLP.HTM

Wow ! That chart really shows how lethal the Bibby / JJ backcourt combo is. Having two guards who can shoot that well playing off each other is lethal ! Add in Marvin's new found range and its down right scary !

Keep staying in the paint Smoove ! Just as you have the last 2 games and we are on to something realy good.

[Cwell]

When Law plays, JJ and other starters are seldom on the floor with him. That may attribute to the low team offensive point out put.

Law could not bail JJ out with consistent 3's once JJ is doubled team but Law can get in the paint at will and kick it out to JJ for a few open looks. With Law in the game JJ would not have to play make as much. With the oppurtunity ,Law could do the play making.........at least get in the paint more then Bibby to take the defensive attention off his teamates.

No knock to Bibby. I'm happy with him as the starter. His shooting ability has allowed him to develope great chemistry to play off JJ and bail the team out when they can't get good looks in the paint.............. I'd just prefer to see Flip used as a SG more and Law get a chance at PG. With them playing a few minutes together we could realy turn up the tempo and run more then with Bibby at the helm.

For a 4-5 minutes stretch, we could go small with Bibby or Flip at SG, JJ at SF, and Marvin at PF..............They could spread the floor with their ability to shoot the 3 and really open things up for Law to get in the paint and create some havoc and open looks for others.

Of course that messes with Woody's slow it down, defensive philosophy, which seems to be producing that 17 W / 10 L record. So should we not try to fix something is not broken. At the very least, on nights where we struggle to score, I'd like to see some stirring of the pot with some actual offensive coaching adjustments.

Bibby will have a 3 -5 game cold stretch where his shot won't fall........all shooters alwayse do even JJ does. When that happens I don't want to have to rely on a street baller to run the team .Law should get some burn so that he will be ready !

i've seen a couple times where Joe has kicked it to Law in the corner and he knocked down the 3. Of course that's when he was in rhythm. He knocked the shots down in pre-season and then had to deal with the inconsistent minutes again. Therefore an inconsistent shot, therefore he's hesitant to even take the jumper. I think y'all are underestimating Law's shooting ability. if he gets consistent minutes and gets comfortable he'll knock his shots down.

I remember in pre-season against Detroit where the ran a play for Acie,he ran around a screen and they hit him with the pass and hit kncoked down the jumper with ease. Against Cleveland he hit his shots also. He just needs minutes,he's no Bibby like pure shooter but he can shoot.

Edited December 23, 2008 by Cwell

[Guest]

i've seen a couple times where Joe has kicked it to Law in the corner and he knocked down the 3.

Really? You must be talking about one of his 3 made three pointers this year.

[NineOhTheRino]

you will not find many flip supporters around here.

[Swatguy]

you will not find many flip supporters around here.

Not true. Flip is what was ordered. For those that do not know, his role Is To Shoot ! He has a green light and he generally does just that.

When Flip is on the court, he plays as good as the other guards on the court.

There must be a reason of Flip-hate than his game.

[bronnt]

Not true. Flip is what was ordered. For those that do not know, his role Is To Shoot ! He has a green light and he generally does just that.

When Flip is on the court, he plays as good as the other guards on the court.

There must be a reason of Flip-hate than his game.

That's quite obviously what his role is. The problem is...that's his role. When we brought him in, there's no reason to expect he was ever going to do anything else. Which is why hardly anyone around here likes him.

I suppose we can cling to the hope that he'll continue to shoot threes over 35%, even though his prior 6 year career has seen him shooting around 28%. I'd bet that he hasn't had a sudden shooting epiphany and reverts back to close to his career average before the season is over.

And that's about the only useful things he's done for us this year. His overall shooting is 40.7%, which is ugly even though it's not unseen. He's turning the ball over more than he's dishing out assists, which is never a good thing. His defense is almost exactly average-he's a bit above average at checking opposing PGs but he's often outmatched when guarding 2s-and that happens too often.