Keep Woody

[NineOhTheRino]

Woody could be a HOF coach if given a starting 5 with an oz. of heart!

Edited January 11, 2009 by NineOhTheRino

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[Admin]

Woody could be a HOF coach if given a starting 5 with an oz. of heart!

Even as one of the biggest Woody supporters on this site I'd say that statement is a bit crazy, but I do think if he had a more professional group of players who were more fundamentally sound and played hard every night that his record would be a lot better than it's been as our coach.

I will say that I picked a good time to get sick as I missed most of the first Orlando game and all of the past 2 games. Then again maybe it's my fault that we lost?

[tonegully]

Woody is a terrible coach. There is no excuse for the team to be playing like this. No excuse. We need a new coach with a new attitude and bringing some discipline.

[Admin]

Woody is a terrible coach. There is no excuse for the team to be playing like this. No excuse. We need a new coach with a new attitude and bringing some discipline.

And what will you say if we do bring in a new coach and we see the same things from the players? God forbid but what if we actually get worse with a new coach? At what point do you decide that it's the players that are equally if not more so responsible for our failures as the coach? In my mind the players should get the lions share of the credit for success and the lions share for failure. Unfortunately they get credit when we win and Woody gets vilified. Every once in a while he gets props for a winning streak but not often.

[tonegully]

And what will you say if we do bring in a new coach and we see the same things from the players? God forbid but what if we actually get worse with a new coach? At what point do you decide that it's the players that are equally if not more so responsible for our failures as the coach? In my mind the players should get the lions share of the credit for success and the lions share for failure. Unfortunately they get credit when we win and Woody gets vilified. Every once in a while he gets props for a winning streak but not often.

I dont think the players can put forth a worst effort than they have these last 3 games. I blame Woody cause he has had our core for four years and this the best he can do.

Im telling you Dolfan, our players need some discipline. Someone who is not scared to put Smoove on the bench when is doing what he wants to do. Someone to tell JJ, hey the shot isnt falling lets get everyone involved in the game from you drawing the double team. Someone to tell Marvin, take the ball to the hole and finish. Someone who will have our team shooting some FTs before they go home.

Woody is not cutting it right now. He has had 4 years. We need a someone new at the helm.

[Admin]

I dont think the players can put forth a worst effort than they have these last 3 games. I blame Woody cause he has had our core for four years and this the best he can do.

Im telling you Dolfan, our players need some discipline. Someone who is not scared to put Smoove on the bench when is doing what he wants to do. Someone to tell JJ, hey the shot isnt falling lets get everyone involved in the game from you drawing the double team. Someone to tell Marvin, take the ball to the hole and finish. Someone who will have our team shooting some FTs before they go home.

Woody is not cutting it right now. He has had 4 years. We need a someone new at the helm.

But do you think it's Woody's fault that they haven't put forth the effort? I will never blame the coach/manager for players not trying because I believe too much in personal accountability but if they aren't giving an effort intentionally because of Woody then unfortunately he would need to be replaced since you can't replace all of your players. I just don't believe that something has happened over the past week to make the players want to turn on Woody so that makes me believe that they just haven't cared enough and I doubt there is anything Woody could do about it. Sure it would be great to bench star players when they aren't giving you 100% effort and maybe Woody is afraid to do that, or maybe he has been told by management to play them no matter what since they're getting paid so much and we certainly don't have financially well off owners, not to mention we don't have anything remotely capable of replacing them off the bench.

You talk about Woody having 4 years but we've also had most of this roster for 4 years as well. It's high time that some of them grew up. Hell at this point I'm almost ready to see Woody replaced just so we can know one way or another whether it was his fault that we've underachieved over the past 4 years or whether it's the players. Either way I just hope we do something to improve the team.

[NineOhTheRino]

I put most of this on JJ. He's is supposed to the leader here but he seems to want to fit in with the other guys. You think Bron or Kobe would allow this? Joe has to give Bibby a kick the arse for putting up those gay 3 pointers and not taking the ball to the defense. Bibby has these guys wanting to be the old school Suns or Kings instead of the hard-nose team Woody wants. So all you guys that kiss Bibby’s butt for making shots when things are going well should now step up and blast him for undermining Woody’s philosophy.

[DrReality]

Teams go through slumps, it is inevitable. But I think Woody has over acheived and taken this team farther than he is really capable. That may be showing.

[macdaddy]

Even as one of the biggest Woody supporters on this site I'd say that statement is a bit crazy, but I do think if he had a more professional group of players who were more fundamentally sound and played hard every night that his record would be a lot better than it's been as our coach.

I will say that I picked a good time to get sick as I missed most of the first Orlando game and all of the past 2 games. Then again maybe it's my fault that we lost?

Isn't that really his job though? To make them play hard every night and develop them into real pros. That was his assignment when given a team full of teenagers. Did anyone think that Smoove and Marvin should have been fundamentally sound when we got them?

You're right though. The players are accountable for this too, but just because the players are screwing up doesn't mean that Woody is a good coach. We could have both a thin roster and an average coach. To me there are two reasons to change coaches:

1. Woody's system doesn't seem to play to our players strengths which is pushing the tempo. Not like golden state but certainly not what we've been doing on offense.

2. Are we going to replace players until we find some that work well with Woody or are we going to find a coach who can get the best from our players.

Personally though I think the time for a coaching change was last year or in the off season. Changing right now would probably screw our year. I still expect us to make the playoffs and compete.

[crimedog]

You talk about Woody having 4 years but we've also had most of this roster for 4 years as well. It's high time that some of them grew up. Hell at this point I'm almost ready to see Woody replaced just so we can know one way or another whether it was his fault that we've underachieved over the past 4 years or whether it's the players. Either way I just hope we do something to improve the team.

This can't be overlooked in my opinion. Rationally, its easy to understand your logic. With coaches, its often impossible to know what their impact is (or isn't) but its easier for an optimistic team to blame the coach because its hard to get a talent upgrade from the players. The problem is that Woody has been given leeway that coaches that work for good franchises never get. He's been historically unsuccessful but is in a situation where ownership would prefer to keep him around than to shop for someone new.

Now, I wouldn't dump him right now either because its silly to dump a guy because of a 3-game slump, but I don't think he's a great coach by any means.

Edited January 12, 2009 by crimedog

[Admin]

Isn't that really his job though? To make them play hard every night and develop them into real pros. That was his assignment when given a team full of teenagers. Did anyone think that Smoove and Marvin should have been fundamentally sound when we got them?

You're right though. The players are accountable for this too, but just because the players are screwing up doesn't mean that Woody is a good coach. We could have both a thin roster and an average coach. To me there are two reasons to change coaches:

1. Woody's system doesn't seem to play to our players strengths which is pushing the tempo. Not like golden state but certainly not what we've been doing on offense.

2. Are we going to replace players until we find some that work well with Woody or are we going to find a coach who can get the best from our players.

Personally though I think the time for a coaching change was last year or in the off season. Changing right now would probably screw our year. I still expect us to make the playoffs and compete.

One thing I definitely want to say is that I don't believe that Woody, or any coach, can make a player do something that they don't naturally want to do night in and night out. I think we have too many immature, undisciplined, and sometimes lazy players on this team and when you combine that with the teams most vocal leader being Al Horford and not much leadership on the sidelines in the way of assistant coaches and Woody and a shaky front office I don't think it's too difficult to see how these issues can snowball. You're right that the easiest thing for us to do is replace Woody but at this point in the season we couldn't bring in anyone from outside of the organization and I'm really not confident that we've got anyone else on the sidelines who is ready to lead the team. I could see Mark Price being that guy at some point but it would be asking an awful lot from him to replace Woody mid-season.

I still think that Woody is a quality head coach and with the right team he'd be plenty successful. Sure there are better coaches out there and I wouldn't hesitate to replace Woody with one of them if the opportunity presented itself ... and ownership was willing to make it happen ... but I would NOT fire him just to fire him UNLESS he has lost this team and I won't let 1 blowout loss convince me that he's lost the team. We all knew coming into this year that we're not a very deep team and Woody has exacerbated that problem by overplaying the starters. I don't think he's had a lot of choice but there's no doubt in my mind that he could be getting Acie and some of the other young players a few more minutes each game.

I completely agree with you that we'll make the playoffs and compete and at that point if there is a better option than Woody we should go for it, but that should not be our only big move. I really don't believe we'll ever be able to win anything meaningful with our front court the way it's currently constructed and the one guy that I'd hate to trade the most is Josh Smith but he'd easily have the most value and he may be the player that we need to trade the most in order to fix some of these non skill related issues our team has. Then again maybe he just can't play hard consistently for Woody and simply replacing Woody might fix that. It's a dangerous game to play though because if we do replace Woody and keep Smith and then Smith continues to play lazy uninspired basketball for stretches that could really hurt his trade value since it would undoubtedly prove that it wasn't Woody who caused it.

Then again maybe we're all just paranoid and overreacting over this slump ...

[Admin]

This can't be overlooked in my opinion. Rationally, its easy to understand your logic. With coaches, its often impossible to know what their impact is (or isn't) but its easier for an optimistic team to blame the coach because its hard to get a talent upgrade from the players. The problem is that Woody has been given leeway that coaches that work for good franchises never get. He's been historically unsuccessful but is in a situation where ownership would prefer to keep him around than to shop for someone new.

Now, I wouldn't dump him right now either because its silly to dump a guy because of a 3-game slump, but I don't think he's a great coach by any means.

Yep he's definitely gotten too much leeway, but he's also been given an experiment of a roster with all of our swingmen and it took halfway through his 4th year as our coach before we ever got him a real PG and we still haven't gotten him a real C and you look at the history of the league and it seems like the common thread among most successful teams has been quality players at the 1 and 5 and we've built this team backwards and we've done it with mostly kids. So I can see why Woody has deserved more leeway than most coaches because I don't know that any other young head coach has ever been given such a challenge.

I am a firm believer though that at some point you've got to make a big change in leadership to keep this thing from getting stagnant. I don't believe that this past offseason was the time due to our performance against the Celtics and I really don't think you can do it mid-season like this, but it will probably be time to replace Woody this offseason and I pray that will help get us moving in the right direction a little quicker.

I absolutely agree with you that he's not a great coach by any means and I sure hope I haven't given anyone that impression that I think he is. I think he's a fantastic defensive coach and his defensive philosophy is pretty innovative and I think he's done a tremendous job overall during the past 5 years at keeping this teams spirits up and keeping them competing during all of the failure but you are right, he's far from a great coach.

[AHF]

One thing I definitely want to say is that I don't believe that Woody, or any coach, can make a player do something that they don't naturally want to do night in and night out.

This is a statement that is subject to some interpretation, so rather than respond to it directly (my quoting notwithstanding), I will try to just state my position on what is a related and possibly responsive issue.

I do think on a given night that a coach has fairly limited control over what a player is doing that night. The coach can yell at the player or sit a player for a few minutes, but otherwise doesn't have that much ability to control how that player runs a fast break, or selects shots, etc. outside of entirely benching the player.

However, I do think that long-term a coach can really influence most players on those types of issues. To use an example that is near and dear to all our hearts, I do think a coach could stop Josh Smith from shooting three pointers. Not completely (unless you want to stop him from shooting all jump shots) and therefore not necessarily on a given night, but if a coach really wanted to tell Josh essentially "I don't ever want you shooting threes" I think the coach could do it regardless of whether Josh feels that is something he should be doing. It might not be something that happens overnight but a coach should be able to get a player to alter their game enough to make that kind of change - whether it is by just working with that plaeyr individually to tell them to stop shooting 3's entirely or to stop shooting any perimeter jumpers near the 3 point line, etc. or whether it is chaniging the offense to move that player more inside and prevent them from spending much (if any) time outside the three point line (think about how much time Shaq has spent outside the 3 point line on half-court offense over his career).

Likewise, the coach should be able to get players to take direction and play a certain way within their defensive or offensive system. If a coach doesn't want Horford or Zaza trying to steal the ball from the opposing PG on D, that should be something the coach can accomplish (in general) regardless of how much Horford or Zaza might naturally want to do that. Likewise, the coach should be able to get players to block out, etc. on a regular basis. Not every time, but as a regular and normal basis within our system. I think these types of things are really part of our system and for the most part, the coach should be able to do that with most players and most issues like this.

There will, of course, be some players that cannot be focused or brought within certain systems but I think these players are the exception to the rule rather than the regular course of the game.

[Admin]

AHF you certainly bring up some valid points and it makes me think of those guys that try to break wild horses and get them to do what they want rather than what he horse naturally wants to do. I think you'll have some that you're able to do this with but there will also be some that no matter how much effort you put into it at some point you just have to realize that it's a fruitless effort.

Another thing that puzzles me is that shouldn't some of our assistant coaches be able to get through to these guys on a more general basis like you're referring to, even if Woody can't? I can't say that I feel like we've got the strongest set of assistant coaches in the league but are they really that invisible in relation to our players bad habits?

[macdaddy]

I think the problem is more simple than we think. Its not that Woody is ineffective or they don't listen to him its that the offensive philosophy he has doesn't work well with these players. At least not in the long run. It works well when we are playing great D and knocking down 3s. If one of those things is off then we're struggling.

So what bothers me is that he seems unwilling or unable to really get the guys to push the tempo. So with Josh Smith I think you are exactly right. You can't tell him 'never shoot a 3' but if you don't want him shooting long jumpers then he shouldn't be positioned there on the floor. Most power forwards who aren't long range threats are kept near the basket. Similarly with Marvin, he can knock down jumpers esp. mid range ones but there aren't many plays run to get him looks.

Other teams fear our guys pushing the ball up and slashing to the hole. Most of the league can't do anything with Horford, Marvin, Smoove driving to the hole especially in transition. They don't fear us passing the ball around the perimeter looking for an open jumper. They know to just defend JJ and Bibby and take your chances.

[Admin]

I think the problem is more simple than we think. Its not that Woody is ineffective or they don't listen to him its that the offensive philosophy he has doesn't work well with these players. At least not in the long run. It works well when we are playing great D and knocking down 3s. If one of those things is off then we're struggling.

So what bothers me is that he seems unwilling or unable to really get the guys to push the tempo. So with Josh Smith I think you are exactly right. You can't tell him 'never shoot a 3' but if you don't want him shooting long jumpers then he shouldn't be positioned there on the floor. Most power forwards who aren't long range threats are kept near the basket. Similarly with Marvin, he can knock down jumpers esp. mid range ones but there aren't many plays run to get him looks.

Other teams fear our guys pushing the ball up and slashing to the hole. Most of the league can't do anything with Horford, Marvin, Smoove driving to the hole especially in transition. They don't fear us passing the ball around the perimeter looking for an open jumper. They know to just defend JJ and Bibby and take your chances.

I have seen some life of our offense growing a bit over the past month (granted I missed the last 2.5 games so I'm not including that) but I've seen a lot more movement without the ball than we used to see and some fairly decent plays from time to time.

In theory it sounds great for us to be a team that pushes the tempo but when we've proven time and again that we're too lazy to box out I have a hard time imagining that we'd be able to sustain pushing the tempo for long before it became to hard on (some) our players to push themselves through the pain.

Also, is it just me or did anyone else get taught from the time they were very young that when you pass the ball you don't just stand there, you cut to the basket or set a pick or something. How often do you see our guys pass the ball and then just stand there? That drives me absolutely insane!

[AHF]

AHF you certainly bring up some valid points and it makes me think of those guys that try to break wild horses and get them to do what they want rather than what he horse naturally wants to do. I think you'll have some that you're able to do this with but there will also be some that no matter how much effort you put into it at some point you just have to realize that it's a fruitless effort.

Another thing that puzzles me is that shouldn't some of our assistant coaches be able to get through to these guys on a more general basis like you're referring to, even if Woody can't? I can't say that I feel like we've got the strongest set of assistant coaches in the league but are they really that invisible in relation to our players bad habits?

Part of the problem in assessing that is that it is entirely unclear what the message is that the coaches have been trying to send. We know for a fact that Woodson wants Josh Smith shooting 3's and that he has been frustrated with Josh's shot selection in the past but not exactly where the line is drawn between "shoot good threes" and "spend more time inside." Woodson's offense appears designed to position Josh Smith outside the arc on a lot of possessions (we have all seen Josh getting the ball for a long jumper because the D leaves him open on the perimeter as the clock winds down a ton of times). So all-in-all, I conclude that Woodson is not even trying to stop Woodson from shooting 3's but is trying to walk a fine line where he relies on Josh Smith to exercise wise shot selection and judgment for when to shoot those 3's. I have problems with this approach, and it deviates from the wild horse example because you aren't trying to break the habit - just channel it positively. I think that is too fine a line for Smith at this point in his career.

[Admin]

Part of the problem in assessing that is that it is entirely unclear what the message is that the coaches have been trying to send. We know for a fact that Woodson wants Josh Smith shooting 3's and that he has been frustrated with Josh's shot selection in the past but not exactly where the line is drawn between "shoot good threes" and "spend more time inside." Woodson's offense appears designed to position Josh Smith outside the arc on a lot of possessions (we have all seen Josh getting the ball for a long jumper because the D leaves him open on the perimeter as the clock winds down a ton of times). So all-in-all, I conclude that Woodson is not even trying to stop Woodson from shooting 3's but is trying to walk a fine line where he relies on Josh Smith to exercise wise shot selection and judgment for when to shoot those 3's. I have problems with this approach, and it deviates from the wild horse example because you aren't trying to break the habit - just channel it positively. I think that is too fine a line for Smith at this point in his career.

Do we know that for a fact though? The evidence would seem to suggest that he wants him shooting 3's based on the example you provided but it seems to run contrary to something Woody would want if he gets frustrated by it as you also stated.

The real issue might be that Woody is not capable of designing his own offense and he's piggy backing off of the Larry Brown offense with the Pistons that had Rasheed parked out by the 3pt line like Smith does. That's a big reason why I had hoped we'd bring in an "offensive coordinator" this offseason to run our offense but for whatever reason that didn't or couldn't happen.

[AHF]

Do we know that for a fact though? The evidence would seem to suggest that he wants him shooting 3's based on the example you provided but it seems to run contrary to something Woody would want if he gets frustrated by it as you also stated.

This seems pretty explicit and I don't see how it could be interpreted differently unless the context is also a complete misquote:

“Josh is five years in the league now, man,” Woodson said after Smith’s 5-for-19 shooting effort in the loss to the Rockets. “And it comes down to time, score and situation. That’s the bottom line. We’re not telling him he can’t shoot 3-pointers but if you miss four or five jump shots, something has to go off in his head that says, ‘I have to do something else.’ “

This seems pretty consistent with my theory of Woodson approving Josh to shoot 3's but relying on Josh's BBIQ to exercise good shot selection.

Edited January 12, 2009 by AHF