Woody deserves credit for molding JJ into a star

[AtLaS]

I give Woodson credit for making JJ into a decent defensive player. Lord knows he wasn't going to learn how to play a damn bit of defense under Mike D'Antoni

JJ was actually a better defender IMO in Phoenix, and was considered their best perimeter defender. He didn't have to carry the offense by himself so he had a lot more energy to spend on defense. He did a great job on Tony Parker in the playoffs that season and that was a key reason people thought he could play PG in the NBA when we signed him.

[HamHawk]

The better we get as a team and the more expectations that we have, it's becoming more evident that to truly challenge for a championship our roster still needs a major "tweak" before we can make that leap.

I still think that trading Jsmoove is the only way to take that next step and add a necessary piece to reach our potential.

I thought that too for a bit. I even posted a pitch about that. Now I think differently. This is a critical off season for our Hawks, to find out if we can make that next step to joining the records of the East's big 3. I'm thinking that there are other options instead of trading Smoove. . . like a smart draft (with a little luck) and working in other player's contracts. PG money, etc. . .

[TheNorthCydeRises]

So by using Hawksquawk logic . . . Nate McMillian doesn't deserve any credit with the way Brandon Roy has developed. ( Nate coaches Roy much in the same way that Woody does JJ. )

It's interesting to see the apathy toward Woodson on this board. He came into a situation in which he was basically inheriting an expansion team, much like what the OK City Thunder look like when they moved to Seattle. Everybody knew it would take us at least 3 years, maybe more, to dig out of the hole. We finally made the playoffs in year 4, but not with a winning record. In Year 5, we achieved that winning record, and gained home court in the first round of the playoffs for the first time in 10 years.

Yet this guy can't get any credit for anything this team does, from player development, to the overall mentality of this team.

Let Hawksquawk tell it . .

- Smoove developed without Woody

- Marvin developed without Woody

- Zaza's effectiveness off the bench is due to his own development, and not because of Woody

- JJ became a star player without Woody

- Flip developed without Woody ( remember, this is the same guy we signed for a mere 1.5 million for one season, because no one else wanted his azz )

I mean, damn. Why are the Hawks even paying for a coach who's obviouslynot had a hand in the development of our players? They should just coach themselves, if that's the case.

Meanwhile, coaches like Terry Porter, Scott Skiles, and Jim O'Brien are light years ahead of Woody as a coach.

Damn, does Woody get any credit for anything the Hawks have done in the past 2 years? I'm just curious.

Edited April 12, 2009 by northcyde

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Oh . . I forgot Mike D'Antoni. Because if we'd had D'Antoni, we'd won 55 games this year . . lol.

[AtLaS]

So by using Hawksquawk logic . . . Nate McMillian doesn't deserve any credit with the way Brandon Roy has developed. ( Nate coaches Roy much in the same way that Woody does JJ. )

It's interesting to see the apathy toward Woodson on this board. He came into a situation in which he was basically inheriting an expansion team, much like what the OK City Thunder look like when they moved to Seattle. Everybody knew it would take us at least 3 years, maybe more, to dig out of the hole. We finally made the playoffs in year 4, but not with a winning record. In Year 5, we achieved that winning record, and gained home court in the first round of the playoffs for the first time in 10 years.

Yet this guy can't get any credit for anything this team does, from player development, to the overall mentality of this team.

Let Hawksquawk tell it . .

- Smoove developed without Woody

- Marvin developed without Woody

- Zaza's effectiveness off the bench is due to his own development, and not because of Woody

- JJ became a star player without Woody

- Flip developed without Woody ( remember, this is the same guy we signed for a mere 1.5 million for one season, because no one else wanted his azz )

I mean, damn. Why are the Hawks even paying for a coach who's obviouslynot had a hand in the development of our players? They should just coach themselves, if that's the case.

Meanwhile, coaches like Terry Porter, Scott Skiles, and Jim O'Brien are light years ahead of Woody as a coach.

Damn, does Woody get any credit for anything the Hawks have done in the past 2 years? I'm just curious.

You must not have read my post. JJ was very much capable of putting up those numbers in PHX but he didn't need to. He was their goto ISO player in the half court set, and if you watched him in the playoffs against the Spurs you would've seen that.

About Woody, he claims to be a defensive minded coach yet we are consistently in the bottom half of the league in defensive efficiency. He let's the offense take care of itself and all we do is run ISO's all game. When we are on the road and the other team makes a run, we can't end it and usually lose because we don't have a way to get an easy basket.

But, I do think Woody has improved a lot with subs this season. I don't find myself questioning his sub patterns as much as in years past. We have also begun to finally run the PnR more (still not close to enough) which is a nice addition, especially given a dominant PnR player like Bibby.

[exodus]

So by using Hawksquawk logic . . . Nate McMillian doesn't deserve any credit with the way Brandon Roy has developed. ( Nate coaches Roy much in the same way that Woody does JJ. )

It's interesting to see the apathy toward Woodson on this board. He came into a situation in which he was basically inheriting an expansion team, much like what the OK City Thunder look like when they moved to Seattle. Everybody knew it would take us at least 3 years, maybe more, to dig out of the hole. We finally made the playoffs in year 4, but not with a winning record. In Year 5, we achieved that winning record, and gained home court in the first round of the playoffs for the first time in 10 years.

Yet this guy can't get any credit for anything this team does, from player development, to the overall mentality of this team.

Let Hawksquawk tell it . .

- Smoove developed without Woody

- Marvin developed without Woody

- Zaza's effectiveness off the bench is due to his own development, and not because of Woody

- JJ became a star player without Woody

- Flip developed without Woody ( remember, this is the same guy we signed for a mere 1.5 million for one season, because no one else wanted his azz )

I mean, damn. Why are the Hawks even paying for a coach who's obviouslynot had a hand in the development of our players? They should just coach themselves, if that's the case.

Meanwhile, coaches like Terry Porter, Scott Skiles, and Jim O'Brien are light years ahead of Woody as a coach.

Damn, does Woody get any credit for anything the Hawks have done in the past 2 years? I'm just curious.

Do you give Woody any blame for the Hawks record the previous 3 years? Do you give him any blame for Smith trying to lead the break and shoot 3? do you give him any blame for the hawks lack of ball movement?

[AtLaS]

do you give him any blame for the hawks lack of ball movement?

Yeah, this is why our team is so inconsistent. If our players aren't hitting their shots than we're screwed because we have no way to get an easy basket. This is why we can beat the Lakers or Cavs on one night and get blown out by the Clippers at home on the next.

[HamHawk]

A coach gets blamed for everything wrong and credit for about 10% of what they actually do. In Woody's case, showing coaching through offensive sets would help ease his public ratings. Either way, coaches can't take credit for having a team that is this athletically gifted. Trainers maybe a little, but not the coach.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

You must not have read my post. JJ was very much capable of putting up those numbers in PHX but he didn't need to. He was their goto ISO player in the half court set, and if you watched him in the playoffs against the Spurs you would've seen that.

About Woody, he claims to be a defensive minded coach yet we are consistently in the bottom half of the league in defensive efficiency. He let's the offense take care of itself and all we do is run ISO's all game. When we are on the road and the other team makes a run, we can't end it and usually lose because we don't have a way to get an easy basket.

But, I do think Woody has improved a lot with subs this season. I don't find myself questioning his sub patterns as much as in years past. We have also begun to finally run the PnR more (still not close to enough) which is a nice addition, especially given a dominant PnR player like Bibby.

A lot of interesting stuff here.

JJ was definitely capable of putting up the type of numbers he's doing now, and he did show that in Phoenix, when he basically had to run the point for a few months back in the 03- 04 season. So you're definitely right on that point.

But the consensus by the "experts" and even on this board, was that he could never be a lead guy . . a go-to player. That he was always better suited to be a complimentary player, than the guy a franchise is built around.

Woody pretty much put him in situations in which would enhance his ability to be a viable go-to player, as well as playmaker. He could've let Lue and the other PGs run the show, and let JJ play a traditional 2-guard role, like some on here wanted him to be. He could very easily give total control to Bibby to run the offense, but he doesn't. He still lets just about everything flow through JJ, whether it is for the good or for the bad of the team, to enhance his development as a star player.

As far as defense goes, Woody constantly preaches defense to these guys. Constantly. But we've had a defensive problem at the PG position ever since Mookie got traded. Speedy was supposed to be a remedy defensively for that, but we know how that turned out.

A good PG will absolutely torch Bibby, and that won't change as long as he's on the court. Also, a good post player will tend to kill us, because our post guys aren't bulk guys who can stop people. So we have to scramble and trap and constantly man-switch, in order to be effective on defense.

And to be honest, our defense hinges on how we rebound the basketball, a principle that Woody has beat into these guys heads from day 1. Defense and rebounding.

Defensive rating of the Hawks the last 5 years ( basketball-reference.com )

04-05: 29th

05-06: 27th

06-07: 23rd

07-08: 18th

08-09: 13th

Not surprising that when we got a dominant rebounder like Horford, that our defensive rating improved. 13th is pretty good, out of 30 teams.

And here's a question about his sub patterns. What exactly has changed?

- Marvin still comes out of the game first, regardless of how he's playing, around the 4 - 6 minute mark of the 1st quarter.

- JJ still plays a ton of minutes.

- Woody still doesn't trust young players, especially Acie, so he rides the bench along with all of those other young guys.

- Just like last year, we're essentially only 8 deep, going into the playoffs.

So what exactly has changed? Other than the fact that we're winning? There was a lot of complaints about Woody having "timed substitutions" in the past, but he still does that.

The only difference, is we're winning.

[HamHawk]

Feels good to say doesn't it? "We're winning". I could get used to that!! If you feel it came from the rebounding, then how much credit do you give Horf for our recent success?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Do you give Woody any blame for the Hawks record the previous 3 years? Do you give him any blame for Smith trying to lead the break and shoot 3? do you give him any blame for the hawks lack of ball movement?

Oh he definitely gets some of the blame. Truthfully, while we could've been better in his first 3 years, we were nowhere near being a playoff team in those first 2 years, and maybe a borderline 8th seed playoff team in year 3.

Smith should be prohibited to shoot 3s, IMO. But you have to give Woody credit for how he's handled Smoove overall. He's not afraid to butt heads with the most popular player on the Hawks, and will reprimand him if he gets too far out of line. Keep in mind though, it was Woody who moved him to the 4, after Harrington got traded, and constantly told him to take the ball to the hole. His ability to take 4s off the dribble, is the most vital part of his offensive game. But like I said, this board gives Woody no credit for his development, so it's all moot.

The lack of ball movement on offense is squarely on Woody. Even with that though, he trusts JJ to make the decisions in the half court, forcing him to be a good decision type player. Sometimes it's to the detriment of the team. Most times, it's for the good of the team.

What grade would you give Woody for this season?

My point is that Woody doesn't get credit for ANYTHING the Hawks have done right, especially in the last 2 years.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Feels good to say doesn't it? "We're winning". I could get used to that!! If you feel it came from the rebounding, then how much credit do you give Horf for our recent success?

LOL . . it does feel good to say.

I give Horford a ton of credit for our recent success. To me, his presence on the team is more vital that Bibby's. It's 2nd to JJ's in my opinion.

And I'll tell you something else. It would be very easy for Woody to start Zaza, and bring Horford off the bench, just to justify having a sizeable presence at center in the game. It would also let Horford play his "natural position" more, by coming off the bench.

But Woody opting to start Horford at center, enables us to have a good defensive rebounder in the game, something Zaza doesn't excel at. Those defensive rebounds eliminate possessions and can cause fast breaks. The extra shot blocking presence he gives us, has also been vital to our team's success and to our improving defensive rating.

And while he may not know it, Horford playing center has and will continue to make him a tougher player. His potential is definitely suppressed by him playing center, but he doesn't back down one bit. You gotta love that about him.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

A coach gets blamed for everything wrong and credit for about 10% of what they actually do. In Woody's case, showing coaching through offensive sets would help ease his public ratings. Either way, coaches can't take credit for having a team that is this athletically gifted. Trainers maybe a little, but not the coach.

So what can he take credit for?

edit: Also, I would argue that a team like Portland, from to to bottom, is more athletically gifted than we are. ( lol . . which is why we have major trouble with them ) So does that mean that Nate McMillian can also not take credit for having a team like that?

Edited April 13, 2009 by northcyde

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And I'll tell you something else. It would be very easy for Woody to start Zaza, and bring Horford off the bench, just to justify having a sizeable presence at center in the game.

I say this because there have been scrub centers over the years on good teams, who have started games . . but they only log 12 - 18 minutes a game . . and they're almost never in the game at the end.

The Hawks could do this, but it would be to our detriment, in my opinion. That's why Horford is the starter, even if that isn't his "natural position".

[Peoriabird]

So what can he take credit for?

edit: Also, I would argue that a team like Portland, from to to bottom, is more athletically gifted than we are. ( lol . . which is why we have major trouble with them ) So does that mean that Nate McMillian can also not take credit for having a team like that?

I must admit that there is a lot of unjustified animosity toward Woodson here at Hawksquawk. I think that he has improved especially this year. I've noticed that there has been a lot less iso Joe and more ball movement down the stretch. Now, are we the Utah Jazz? No! But things look better now than it did at the beginning of the season. Now as far as Woody's management of Josh Smith, that is just a lose lose proposition for him. On one hand, when Josh Smith plays out of control its Woodson's fault. On the other hand, when Woodson tries to coach him and the end result is a well documented difficult relationship with Smith, the fans were citing Woodson as the reason Josh Smith didn't want to resign with the team last off season. Is Woodson going to the coach's HOF? Of course not! Is he the worse coach in the league? Not even close. Woodson just happens to be on that short list of Hawks coaches/players who might never recover from the negative images created in the past (others on that list include Marvin Williams, Acie Law and Zaza Pachulia) The only way for him to recover is to have something extraordinary happen like the Hawks making it to the conference finals.

[khaos7]

Woody does deserve some credit in utilizing JJ's best talents. That said, the ultimate amount of credit belongs to JJ and Billy Knight (I can't believe I'm saying this). When Billy made the trade for JJ, pundits everywhere bashed the contract and how much we gave up for it. Some questioned whether Joe had All Star talent. Remember, on the Suns team, he was the 4th option (Nash, Amere, Marion, and THEN Joe). However, billy took the risk (he wanted either him or Ray Allen). Everybody crowned Robert Sarver and Bryan Colangelo geniuses. After all they got 2 number ones and Diaw. They were crowned even moreso when Diaw proved not to be a bus. But now look at both teams. The Suns are on the downward spiral, has severe cap issues, aging, shipped Diaw is in Charlotte, let one of their prized picks (Rondo is a All Star PG in Boston) to for nothing, and only has the Lopez kid to show for it. Meanwhile, we are in a good cap position, JJ is a bonafied All Star, and the Hawks have improved every year. I could gripe on and on about what Billy didn't do. Actually he dodged some bullets with the JJ trade. That said, he saw Joe was an awesome talent, gave him a shot, and look at him now.