What does everyone think will be Atlanta's best lineup

[coachx]

I agree. Crawford and Bibby in the same backcourt is potentially the worst defensive backcourt in the NBA.

Truth indeed !

Some people find simple logic very challenging for some reason.

[Buzzard]

You cant really use numbers the way you are because you are assuming everyones responsibilities stays the same when if we did make that change it wouldnt. I dont think the 3 guard lineup is something you use every game but I dont think it would have the effects you claim either .

To use your logic we lose the rebounds but wouldnt we also gain over 4 more assists per game and over 6 more points per game.

Changing the lineup doesnt mean that Marvin wouldnt play we would just be using a different style to start the game so he would still give us his boards.

Also I see Marvins fg% affecting us like this . He was 4th on the team in fga so if adding Crawford and removing Marvin allows the leading shot taker in Joe to shoot a higher percentage that would help our fg% much more than Marvins percentage .

I really do believe that the 3 guard lineup is best used after weve had a several months to see how other teams will play us this year . You want teams to lock into the way they defend us and then throw the 3 guard lineup out there .

Those are good points and I do think there is a time and place for a quicker lineup. But the topic is what is our best lineup? To me that means what lineup do we start and use the most (I could be reading to much into the topics title). We go from 6' 7" 240 lbs to 6'5" 200 lbs at SG and 6' 9" 240 lbs to 6' 7" 240 lbs at SF ... I don't care if JJ's role does change he is not going to make up for that at SF and that lineup will be horrible as far as rebounds go.

[Buzzard]

We are 28th in FT % and 23rd in assists as well. What lineup can fix that?

The point I am trying to make is if its bad already...lets at least not make it worse. If you cannot start bettter rebounders, better shooters, and better passers don't make it worse which is what we will do if Crawford starts and JJ moves to SF.

Some may think that lineup will be like the Suns of old...here is a clue, Amare at PF and Marion at SF each averaged 10 boards a game during their hay day. Our PF (Smoove) averages a little above 7 and JJ will not sniff 7.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Buzzard

[coachx]

Those are good points and I do think there is a time and place for a quicker lineup. But the topic is what is our best lineup? To me that means what lineup do we start and use the most (I could be reading to much into the topics title). We go from 6' 7" 240 lbs to 6'5" 200 lbs at SG and 6' 9" 240 lbs to 6' 7" 240 lbs at SF ... I don't care if JJ's role does change he is not going to make up for that at SF and that lineup will be horrible as far as rebounds go.

That is what logic is.

Glad to see it used on the board.

[Crank]

Those are good points and I do think there is a time and place for a quicker lineup. But the topic is what is our best lineup? To me that means what lineup do we start and use the most (I could be reading to much into the topics title). We go from 6' 7" 240 lbs to 6'5" 200 lbs at SG and 6' 9" 240 lbs to 6' 7" 240 lbs at SF ... I don't care if JJ's role does change he is not going to make up for that at SF and that lineup will be horrible as far as rebounds go.

Well you are under the impression that size means everything when its only a small part of our game .You also have to take into account skills team strengths and weaknesses .

At the end of the day JJ is our best player and we have to do some things to relieve the amount of pressure placed on him .

If JJ slides to SF he wont have to score as much and can better utilize his all around game . I know that JJ if he didnt have to focus on scoring so much could get 3 more defensive rebounds per game . This also makes us even quicker changing ends and allows us to spread the floor which with the 3ay our offense is set up is a huge advantage for us .

I just dont think we could put a better lineup on the floor than one that has JJ grab a board with Crawford and Bibby flaring to the deep corners and Smoove running the wing with AL as the trailer .

Yes we get smaller but we become a better passing, better shooting, better ball handling team. In your theory we are heavier and longer but we are also very predictable.

Ive always thought that our best lineup would be the one that increases the effectiveness of our best player and since we run a isolation based system that would increase the effectiveness of the entire team..

[MaceCase]

Well you are under the impression that size means everything when its only a small part of our game .You also have to take into account skills team strengths and weaknesses .

At the end of the day JJ is our best player and we have to do some things to relieve the amount of pressure placed on him .

If JJ slides to SF he wont have to score as much and can better utilize his all around game . I know that JJ if he didnt have to focus on scoring so much could get 3 more defensive rebounds per game . This also makes us even quicker changing ends and allows us to spread the floor which with the 3ay our offense is set up is a huge advantage for us .

I just dont think we could put a better lineup on the floor than one that has JJ grab a board with Crawford and Bibby flaring to the deep corners and Smoove running the wing with AL as the trailer .

Yes we get smaller but we become a better passing, better shooting, better ball handling team. In your theory we are heavier and longer but we are also very predictable.

Ive always thought that our best lineup would be the one that increases the effectiveness of our best player and since we run a isolation based system that would increase the effectiveness of the entire team..

So why not......

Crawford

Joe

Marvin

Smoove

Horf

Then?

[Buzzard]

Well you are under the impression that size means everything when its only a small part of our game .You also have to take into account skills team strengths and weaknesses .

At the end of the day JJ is our best player and we have to do some things to relieve the amount of pressure placed on him .

If JJ slides to SF he wont have to score as much and can better utilize his all around game . I know that JJ if he didnt have to focus on scoring so much could get 3 more defensive rebounds per game . This also makes us even quicker changing ends and allows us to spread the floor which with the 3ay our offense is set up is a huge advantage for us .

I just dont think we could put a better lineup on the floor than one that has JJ grab a board with Crawford and Bibby flaring to the deep corners and Smoove running the wing with AL as the trailer .

Yes we get smaller but we become a better passing, better shooting, better ball handling team. In your theory we are heavier and longer but we are also very predictable.

Ive always thought that our best lineup would be the one that increases the effectiveness of our best player and since we run a isolation based system that would increase the effectiveness of the entire team..

JJ has never averaged more than 5.1 boards a game and he was a far cry from having to carry the offensive load in Phoenix. I am sure on XBox "JJ grab(bing) a board with Crawford and Bibby flaring to the deep corners and Smoove running the wing with AL as the trailer" looks great; and I am sorry for being a smartass ...but when a NBA lineup consist of five players who only average in rebounds for their career in this order:

Bibby 3.3

Crawford 2.7

JJ 4.2

Josh Smith 7.4

Al Horford 9.5

XBox is not going to save us. And saying JJ could rebound better against a bigger stronger player than what he normaly plays against is just as unreal as NBA Live! Not to mention we get shorter as well as lighter...

Bibby 6'2" 195

Crawford 6' 5" 200

JJ 6' 7" 240

Smoove 6' 9" 240

Al 6' 10" 245

You have to get over this xbox "we can rebound and run against any team in the league syndrome" . If we don't get the rebound, we do not run anywhere; and that team up there would get bullied and beat to death on a nightly basis. You think JJ was tired and banged up after 40 minutes last year...just wait till he plays the bulk of his minutes at SF.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Buzzard

[jy23]

JJ has never averaged more than 5.1 boards a game and he was a far cry from having to carry the offensive load in Phoenix. I am sure on XBox "JJ grab(bing) a board with Crawford and Bibby flaring to the deep corners and Smoove running the wing with AL as the trailer" looks great; and I am sorry for being a smartass ...but when a NBA lineup consist of five players who only average in rebounds for their career in this order:

Bibby 3.3

Crawford 2.7

JJ 4.2

Josh Smith 7.4

Al Horford 9.5

XBox is not going to save us. And saying JJ could rebound better against a bigger stronger player than what he normaly plays against is just as unreal as NBA Live! Not to mention we get shorter as well as lighter...

Bibby 6'2" 195

Crawford 6' 5" 200

JJ 6' 7" 240

Smoove 6' 9" 240

Al 6' 10" 245

You have to get over this xbox "we can rebound and run against any team in the league syndrome" . If we don't get the rebound, we do not run anywhere; and that team up there would get bullied and beat to death on a nightly basis. You think JJ was tired and banged up after 40 minutes last year...just wait till he plays the bulk of his minutes at SF.

lol, that was 2 funny! Xbox syndrome, LMAO!!!!! But saying that JJ would get 3 more defensive rebounds, no matter how much of the load we take off of him, is just RIDICULOUS! Do the people on this board have any knowledge of basketball at all?

[Buzzard]

lol, that was 2 funny! Xbox syndrome, LMAO!!!!! But saying that JJ would get 3 more defensive rebounds, no matter how much of the load we take off of him, is just RIDICULOUS! Do the people on this board have any knowledge of basketball at all?

I really hate being a smartass but this lineup would suck in rebounding, post up offense, and defense against any team we would face in the NBA. And yes, it would suck much worse than what people think we already do in everyone of those categories....

Bibby 3.3

Crawford 2.7

JJ 4.2

Josh Smith 7.4

Al Horford 9.5

I cannot believe multiple fans think this is a valid starting unit in the NBA. Just cannot believe it?

[Crank]

JJ has never averaged more than 5.1 boards a game and he was a far cry from having to carry the offensive load in Phoenix. I am sure on XBox "JJ grab(bing) a board with Crawford and Bibby flaring to the deep corners and Smoove running the wing with AL as the trailer" looks great; and I am sorry for being a smartass ...but when a NBA lineup consist of five players who only average in rebounds for their career in this order:

Bibby 3.3

Crawford 2.7

JJ 4.2

Josh Smith 7.4

Al Horford 9.5

XBox is not going to save us. And saying JJ could rebound better against a bigger stronger player than what he normaly plays against is just as unreal as NBA Live! Not to mention we get shorter as well as lighter...

Bibby 6'2" 195

Crawford 6' 5" 200

JJ 6' 7" 240

Smoove 6' 9" 240

Al 6' 10" 245

You have to get over this xbox "we can rebound and run against any team in the league syndrome" . If we don't get the rebound, we do not run anywhere; and that team up there would get bullied and beat to death on a nightly basis. You think JJ was tired and banged up after 40 minutes last year...just wait till he plays the bulk of his minutes at SF.

I dont play Xbox but I do watch a lot of real basketball games and why are you talking about the Phoenx ?

So what JJ has never averaged over 5 boards a game weve never asked him to focus on that from the sf position either . The SF position will take him closer to the basket and we can ask him to take over a point forward role at times as well.

I find it hysterical that you think that Marvins 2+ rebounds saves the day when Marvin missed how many games last year ? Oh how did we ever rebound without him ?

You dont think JJ could get two more rebounds per game if that was that task asked of him this year .but the reality is that Josh has to get better as a rebounder to be able to play that position longterm for us . He has to stop leaking out on the breaks and start chasing defensive boards and then running the floor hard . If Smoove doesnt improve in that area it wont matter if we keep Marvin there we will never be able to hold on our own down low.

Also why is that your analysis is seemingly based on Marvin not playing when no one said that he wouldnt play . On most teams you strive for your best lineup to be your starting lineup but you also dont want to wear them down either . How would having Joe crash the boards more somehow be more tiring then him driving into 4-5 guys getting hammered on the offensive end .

Outside of Lebron what small forward is some physical specimen that overwhelms players with their size and strength ? LJ retired years ago :) .

I believe that lineup is our best because it would work against teams who best defense against us was double teaming Joe but that doesnt mean it will work against everyone . Against some teams we will have to go with our best matchups and that may involve Crawford at the point but thats the beauty of flexibility.

You will say that those two additional rebounds will play a difference but when I look at the other areas that immediately get improved like ft shooting ,three point shooting,and PASSING I totally disagree . Those rebounds meant so much to last years team because with our poor ft shooting inability to give Joe a rest we had to work so hard to close out games that other teams win going away . However if the 3 guard lineup allows for a faster start ,better ft shooting ,and a better ability to build and sustain leads which leads to easier wins and more rest for Joe then ultimately with the current makeup of the team thats the best way to go .

[MaceCase]

I dont play Xbox but I do watch a lot of real basketball games and why are you talking about the Phoenx ?

So what JJ has never averaged over 5 boards a game weve never asked him to focus on that from the sf position either . The SF position will take him closer to the basket and we can ask him to take over a point forward role at times as well.

I find it hysterical that you think that Marvins 2+ rebounds saves the day when Marvin missed how many games last year ? Oh how did we ever rebound without him ?

You dont think JJ could get two more rebounds per game if that was that task asked of him this year .but the reality is that Josh has to get better as a rebounder to be able to play that position longterm for us . He has to stop leaking out on the breaks and start chasing defensive boards and then running the floor hard . If Smoove doesnt improve in that area it wont matter if we keep Marvin there we will never be able to hold on our own down low.

Also why is that your analysis is seemingly based on Marvin not playing when no one said that he wouldnt play . On most teams you strive for your best lineup to be your starting lineup but you also dont want to wear them down either . How would having Joe crash the boards more somehow be more tiring then him driving into 4-5 guys getting hammered on the offensive end .

Outside of Lebron what small forward is some physical specimen that overwhelms players with their size and strength ? LJ retired years ago :) .

I believe that lineup is our best because it would work against teams who best defense against us was double teaming Joe but that doesnt mean it will work against everyone . Against some teams we will have to go with our best matchups and that may involve Crawford at the point but thats the beauty of flexibility.

You will say that those two additional rebounds will play a difference but when I look at the other areas that immediately get improved like ft shooting ,three point shooting,and PASSING I totally disagree . Those rebounds meant so much to last years team because with our poor ft shooting inability to give Joe a rest we had to work so hard to close out games that other teams win going away . However if the 3 guard lineup allows for a faster start ,better ft shooting ,and a better ability to build and sustain leads which leads to easier wins and more rest for Joe then ultimately with the current makeup of the team thats the best way to go .

I feel the issues being overlooked that Buzz is trying to state is that we are small and only get smaller with that lineup which causes that lineup to be pushed around even more affecting our rebounding, defense and if shooting and FT% is the issue then Josh needs to be off the floor then. It's a fact Bibby has trouble guarding point guards, Crawford can't guard any 2 that has more than 190 pounds on them and Joe will have a bit more trouble consistently D'ing up guys that can not only post him but have the height to shoot over him. That lineup may seem packed full of offense but it is so lacking in so many other areas that that offense is negated. I could only consider that lineup effective if we actually had the twin towers in the frontcourt offsetting the massive amount of penetration that would be occuring and defensive rebounds we already seem to miss out on. Buzz is right you can't run without the ball and you can say Josh will hold that down but that in itself is putting a lot of hope in a lineup where no one but Horf has actually shown a proficiency on the defensive boards for their career .

Our offense is bad not because teams just double team Joe, it's bad because it has zero creativity or movement in it that they can double team Joe with ease and affect the entire offense by doing so. Adding another one on one player doesn't all of a sudden make the offense prolific it just promotes more trash basketball. After all that is said, who does the scoring on the second unit? Or is the plan just to play Joe and Craw at their career averages furthering the issues that has plagued our team over the years. Your idea is that lineup will automactically just come in and run up a 30 point lead on teams so Joe can sit on the bench for 5 minute stretches and when that lead dwindles just come back in and run it back up to 30......yea that's not happening. Last I checked it was Joe Johnson and Jamal Crawford in that lineup not Dwayne Wade and Kobe Bryant. I don't know where you get the idea that both will just tear into the league with such high scoring that it wouldn't matter that they can't defend or rebound.

[Buzzard]

I dont play Xbox but I do watch a lot of real basketball games and why are you talking about the Phoenx ?

So what JJ has never averaged over 5 boards a game weve never asked him to focus on that from the sf position either . The SF position will take him closer to the basket and we can ask him to take over a point forward role at times as well.

I find it hysterical that you think that Marvins 2+ rebounds saves the day when Marvin missed how many games last year ? Oh how did we ever rebound without him ?

You dont think JJ could get two more rebounds per game if that was that task asked of him this year .but the reality is that Josh has to get better as a rebounder to be able to play that position longterm for us . He has to stop leaking out on the breaks and start chasing defensive boards and then running the floor hard . If Smoove doesnt improve in that area it wont matter if we keep Marvin there we will never be able to hold on our own down low.

Also why is that your analysis is seemingly based on Marvin not playing when no one said that he wouldnt play . On most teams you strive for your best lineup to be your starting lineup but you also dont want to wear them down either . How would having Joe crash the boards more somehow be more tiring then him driving into 4-5 guys getting hammered on the offensive end .

Outside of Lebron what small forward is some physical specimen that overwhelms players with their size and strength ? LJ retired years ago :) .

I believe that lineup is our best because it would work against teams who best defense against us was double teaming Joe but that doesnt mean it will work against everyone . Against some teams we will have to go with our best matchups and that may involve Crawford at the point but thats the beauty of flexibility.

You will say that those two additional rebounds will play a difference but when I look at the other areas that immediately get improved like ft shooting ,three point shooting,and PASSING I totally disagree . Those rebounds meant so much to last years team because with our poor ft shooting inability to give Joe a rest we had to work so hard to close out games that other teams win going away . However if the 3 guard lineup allows for a faster start ,better ft shooting ,and a better ability to build and sustain leads which leads to easier wins and more rest for Joe then ultimately with the current makeup of the team thats the best way to go .

You are only looking at 2 boards a game from Marvin's point...what about the two boards a game we lose at SG by switching out Crawford for JJ? We were 23rd in rebounding last year...if we get only 3 boards a game less we drop to between 27th and 29th. We have to not only get better at rebounding (NOT WORSE) we need to stop people to. Do you not see that? With that lineup only Bibby at 6' 2", our weakest defender, will not be considered undersized. Every coach with half a brain will be posting us up left and right.

Size matters...if you don't believe me go ask your wife or girlfriend.