What is Jamal Crawford?

[Diesel]

ok, thank you for clearing that up for me, ill take that but Flip is a different player than JC in that regard. Flip is a lil tougher than JC and he plays harder on that end of the floor. I've said time and time again that I would love to see Jamal and Joe on the floor 2gether but I think that should not be what we start with. Like I said earlier you've bashed Marvin time and time again for not being able to get his own shot so why would you want him to be your best option off the bench, you really dont think that JC would be better suited for that? Being real D you know that would be better for our team having a baller like that coming off the bench and having teams have to worry about one of our bench players, that gives us a dynamic we haven't had in 4EVA! I asked earlier about the last time we had someone like that on our bench and someone brought up ehlo, thats been a good lil min. In my opinion we should leave JC on the bench and have him come in and run the team when he's in.

I look at basketball differently than you do. If Marvin is coming off the bench, I don't think Marvin would be coming off the bench alone or with a whole 2nd team. I think Woody would bring Marvin off the bench for just one player.

Here's an example.

Our lineup is Bibby, Joe, Jamal, Smoove, and Horf.

Woody Subs in Marvin.

Our Lineup becomes Jamal, Joe, Marvin, Smoove, and Horf.

The fact that Marvin doesn't create for himself doesn't matter in this situation. Moreover, I am more akin to think that a coach should use players as match-ups dictate.

However, like I have said before, Hawksfans have tried to pigeonhole Crawford as being another Flip. Crawford is not Flip. That means that he shouldn't be used like flip was used. Crawford is more akin to being like Joe. Therefore, I would rather have him and Joe out there together at the same time.

Arguments against and my answers:

1. Bibby, Jamal = Bad defensive back court.

Without seeing how the chemistry works between Jamal and the team and without seeing how team defense will be played, I think that is just an excuse with no real basis. If we play 20 games and everytime Jamal and Bibby are on the court, they are getting dusted, then you may have a point, but these predictive excuses don't fly without seeing what we have on the court first.

2. Joe loses a size advantage at the 3.

Joe is 6'7 235 lbs. He's big for a SG. Hes big for a SF. His game is really not about posting up smaller players, if it were, he'd get to the FT line more. His game is about being able to take his man off the dribble (crab dribble) or being able to get an open shot. Joe can do that equally as well from the 3 position as he can from the 2 position. Playing defense as a 3 is actually easier for Joe than running through picks trying to chase down a 6'4 200 lb SG who runs a 4.4 40 through traffic.

3. The overall height of our team decreases.

Our disadvantage with height never started or ended at the SF/SG position. Moreover, any perceived height advantage we have at those positions are nullified by the way we play. Marvin is not inside using his 6'9" height. Marvin is outside, waiting on Joe or Bibby to through him the ball. It is a fantasy that a 6'9" player gives us an advantage on either end of the court. Which is why the 5 man teams stats are so interesting. Moreover, we're stable capable of substituting as needed.

4. Crawford could be a spark off the bench.

This is that same old s--- that we have heard back when Marvin was starting over Chillz who was more productive and when Marvin was starting over Flip who was more productive. While those two might not have been bonafide scorers, Crawford is a bonafide scorer and a bonafide passer. 5.0 assists with the knicks? Now that Marvin has his second contract, there's no more need to value him over better players.

[jy23]

I look at basketball differently than you do. If Marvin is coming off the bench, I don't think Marvin would be coming off the bench alone or with a whole 2nd team. I think Woody would bring Marvin off the bench for just one player.

Here's an example.

Our lineup is Bibby, Joe, Jamal, Smoove, and Horf.

Woody Subs in Marvin.

Our Lineup becomes Jamal, Joe, Marvin, Smoove, and Horf.

The fact that Marvin doesn't create for himself doesn't matter in this situation. Moreover, I am more akin to think that a coach should use players as match-ups dictate.

However, like I have said before, Hawksfans have tried to pigeonhole Crawford as being another Flip. Crawford is not Flip. That means that he shouldn't be used like flip was used. Crawford is more akin to being like Joe. Therefore, I would rather have him and Joe out there together at the same time.

Arguments against and my answers:

1. Bibby, Jamal = Bad defensive back court.

Without seeing how the chemistry works between Jamal and the team and without seeing how team defense will be played, I think that is just an excuse with no real basis. If we play 20 games and everytime Jamal and Bibby are on the court, they are getting dusted, then you may have a point, but these predictive excuses don't fly without seeing what we have on the court first.

2. Joe loses a size advantage at the 3.

Joe is 6'7 235 lbs. He's big for a SG. Hes big for a SF. His game is really not about posting up smaller players, if it were, he'd get to the FT line more. His game is about being able to take his man off the dribble (crab dribble) or being able to get an open shot. Joe can do that equally as well from the 3 position as he can from the 2 position. Playing defense as a 3 is actually easier for Joe than running through picks trying to chase down a 6'4 200 lb SG who runs a 4.4 40 through traffic.

3. The overall height of our team decreases.

Our disadvantage with height never started or ended at the SF/SG position. Moreover, any perceived height advantage we have at those positions are nullified by the way we play. Marvin is not inside using his 6'9" height. Marvin is outside, waiting on Joe or Bibby to through him the ball. It is a fantasy that a 6'9" player gives us an advantage on either end of the court. Which is why the 5 man teams stats are so interesting. Moreover, we're stable capable of substituting as needed.

4. Crawford could be a spark off the bench.

This is that same old s--- that we have heard back when Marvin was starting over Chillz who was more productive and when Marvin was starting over Flip who was more productive. While those two might not have been bonafide scorers, Crawford is a bonafide scorer and a bonafide passer. 5.0 assists with the knicks? Now that Marvin has his second contract, there's no more need to value him over better players.

I totally agree that Craw isn't another Flip, he's much better, but I also think that guy would be able to help us more coming off the bench. Just like with the spurs and Manu, you can't really tell once the game gets going that Manu isn't a starter but that gives Pop the advantage of being able to dictate the matchups, he controls what the other team does with their lineup because of what he does wit Manu. Bringing Marv off the bench doesn't exactly have the same effect because coaches around the league don't exactly respect his offensive abilities like they do with Craw. Now we all know that Craw isn't coming in with an entirely different lineup because we know that woody isn't going to do rotations like that but I still see Craw giving us an advantage off the bench. Coaches have to gameplan and think about what they're going to do with one of our bench guys when he comes in, thats going to dictate their rotation, thats not an advantage to you? In my mind I'm thinking that Craw is easily going to get 30-35 mins per so its really not going to change the effect he has on the game I just think that it gives us a slight advantage in other ways to bring him off the bench.

Edited August 3, 2009 by jy21

[NineOhTheRino]

I totally agree that Craw isn't another Flip, he's much better...

but what is he mentally? In flip you had a fearless player. We knew if all else fails Flip would let em hang and take that big 3 or drive the ball. Yeah we can all agree that Crawford is the more talented player but It's not always about talent. Flip gave the team a level of toughness that will be greatly missed.

So as of today I can not say the Hawks are better off with Crawford because I honestly have no idea what he brings other than talent.

[Diesel]

but what is he mentally? In flip you had a fearless player. We knew if all else fails Flip would let em hang and take that big 3 or drive the ball. Yeah we can all agree that Crawford is the more talented player but It's not always about talent. Flip gave the team a level of toughness that will be greatly missed.

So as of today I can not say the Hawks are better off with Crawford because I honestly have no idea what he brings other than talent.

The way i see it, IF Woody uses his talented players right, there won't be too many of those let em hang moments. With Craw we have the ability to blow out teams we're supposed to beat and to beat teams that would give us a tight game. It's been so long since this fanbase have seen a team that has so many scoring options that they can score at will. Well, we're close. IF Horf has done anything with his low post game (same for Smoove) we have the ability to put teams on the floor that will be very hard to stop. Moreover, I am about as high as anybody could be on Teague. My prediction is by the March, Teague will be the starter and he will be running an offense. Maybe it requires a guy who plays NBALIVE as much as Teague does to come in and make up an offensive game plan for our team. I can't wait to see the first time that Teague barks at Smoove to get his *ss in the low post or to set a damn pick. I think our leader cometh.

[Traceman]

I look at basketball differently than you do. If Marvin is coming off the bench, I don't think Marvin would be coming off the bench alone or with a whole 2nd team. I think Woody would bring Marvin off the bench for just one player.

Here's an example.

Our lineup is Bibby, Joe, Jamal, Smoove, and Horf.

Woody Subs in Marvin.

Our Lineup becomes Jamal, Joe, Marvin, Smoove, and Horf.

The fact that Marvin doesn't create for himself doesn't matter in this situation. Moreover, I am more akin to think that a coach should use players as match-ups dictate.

However, like I have said before, Hawksfans have tried to pigeonhole Crawford as being another Flip. Crawford is not Flip. That means that he shouldn't be used like flip was used. Crawford is more akin to being like Joe. Therefore, I would rather have him and Joe out there together at the same time.

Arguments against and my answers:

1. Bibby, Jamal = Bad defensive back court.

Without seeing how the chemistry works between Jamal and the team and without seeing how team defense will be played, I think that is just an excuse with no real basis. If we play 20 games and everytime Jamal and Bibby are on the court, they are getting dusted, then you may have a point, but these predictive excuses don't fly without seeing what we have on the court first.

2. Joe loses a size advantage at the 3.

Joe is 6'7 235 lbs. He's big for a SG. Hes big for a SF. His game is really not about posting up smaller players, if it were, he'd get to the FT line more. His game is about being able to take his man off the dribble (crab dribble) or being able to get an open shot. Joe can do that equally as well from the 3 position as he can from the 2 position. Playing defense as a 3 is actually easier for Joe than running through picks trying to chase down a 6'4 200 lb SG who runs a 4.4 40 through traffic.

3. The overall height of our team decreases.

Our disadvantage with height never started or ended at the SF/SG position. Moreover, any perceived height advantage we have at those positions are nullified by the way we play. Marvin is not inside using his 6'9" height. Marvin is outside, waiting on Joe or Bibby to through him the ball. It is a fantasy that a 6'9" player gives us an advantage on either end of the court. Which is why the 5 man teams stats are so interesting. Moreover, we're stable capable of substituting as needed.

4. Crawford could be a spark off the bench.

This is that same old s--- that we have heard back when Marvin was starting over Chillz who was more productive and when Marvin was starting over Flip who was more productive. While those two might not have been bonafide scorers, Crawford is a bonafide scorer and a bonafide passer. 5.0 assists with the knicks? Now that Marvin has his second contract, there's no more need to value him over better players.

You are hilarious. Even Crawford realizes that he should plan to come off the bench (at least initially) for this team. There is always the possibility that he could come in and prove to be much more effective than Marvin (or even Bibby for that matter) as a starter but INITIALLY, he plans to come off the bench. That is best for the chemistry and continuity of the team and everyone can see that except you. The team won 47 games last year without Crawford even on the team. He has never won 47 games in a season in his LIFE. Why would you mess that up by starting him right off the bat?

Look at it this way. AI is sitting at home right now without a contract because he is not willing to come off the bench. Even bottom feeding teams like MEM and LAC don't want to upset the chemistry of their teams by benching a player so that AI can start. AI is FAR more accomplished than Crawford both in terms of stats and wins. If LOSING teams are unwilling to disrupt their chemistry to start AI, why should we disrupt our chemistry to start Crawford right off the bat?

Some people talk about Crawford's role being like the role that Ginobili has for Spurs and hopefully he will have that type of effect on the team. I would throw the role that JR Smith plays for the Nuggets in the mix as well. Ginobili is obviously a better offensive player than Finley, Roger Mason or Bruce Bowen but he came off the bench because that was best for the team's chemistry. JR Smith is obviously a better offensive player than Dahntay Jones but he came off the bench in DEN for the same reason.

If Crawford can all of a sudden learn to defend SGs without help, I could see considering putting him in the starting lineup but I doubt that will ever be the case. Let him play both PG and SG off the bench and that is where he will help the team most.

[Traceman]

The way i see it, IF Woody uses his talented players right, there won't be too many of those let em hang moments. With Craw we have the ability to blow out teams we're supposed to beat and to beat teams that would give us a tight game. It's been so long since this fanbase have seen a team that has so many scoring options that they can score at will. Well, we're close. IF Horf has done anything with his low post game (same for Smoove) we have the ability to put teams on the floor that will be very hard to stop. Moreover, I am about as high as anybody could be on Teague. My prediction is by the March, Teague will be the starter and he will be running an offense. Maybe it requires a guy who plays NBALIVE as much as Teague does to come in and make up an offensive game plan for our team. I can't wait to see the first time that Teague barks at Smoove to get his *ss in the low post or to set a damn pick. I think our leader cometh.

If Bibby is healthy and Teague is starting by March, either Teague is the 2nd coming of Chris Paul and we are going to compete for the NBA championship or the season is an unmitigated disaster. I can't see anything in between.

As for Crawford, I think he is definitely going to help us but if he was THAT much of a difference maker, why has he NEVER played for a playoff team?

[Crank]

I agree with both Traceman and Diesel .

Crawford is much better than Flip they are just a different level of players however Ive said all along hes a luxury that we can afford to bring along off the bench because hes going to get his minutes . Then come playoff time we can determine if he helps us more in the starting lineup or continue to bring him off the bench . I hope we can continue to use him off the bench because that would mean that Marvin has taken another step in his development and thats good as well.

NineOhTheRino - Crawford is considered one of the better 4th quarter players in the league and has 11 game winning shots according to 82games . I think he will make that entire second unit better but we need a pick and roll/pop big like Joe smith to come off that bench as well.

[Diesel]

You are hilarious. Even Crawford realizes that he should plan to come off the bench (at least initially) for this team. There is always the possibility that he could come in and prove to be much more effective than Marvin (or even Bibby for that matter) as a starter but INITIALLY, he plans to come off the bench. That is best for the chemistry and continuity of the team and everyone can see that except you. The team won 47 games last year without Crawford even on the team. He has never won 47 games in a season in his LIFE. Why would you mess that up by starting him right off the bat?

Look at it this way. AI is sitting at home right now without a contract because he is not willing to come off the bench. Even bottom feeding teams like MEM and LAC don't want to upset the chemistry of their teams by benching a player so that AI can start. AI is FAR more accomplished than Crawford both in terms of stats and wins. If LOSING teams are unwilling to disrupt their chemistry to start AI, why should we disrupt our chemistry to start Crawford right off the bat?

Some people talk about Crawford's role being like the role that Ginobili has for Spurs and hopefully he will have that type of effect on the team. I would throw the role that JR Smith plays for the Nuggets in the mix as well. Ginobili is obviously a better offensive player than Finley, Roger Mason or Bruce Bowen but he came off the bench because that was best for the team's chemistry. JR Smith is obviously a better offensive player than Dahntay Jones but he came off the bench in DEN for the same reason.

If Crawford can all of a sudden learn to defend SGs without help, I could see considering putting him in the starting lineup but I doubt that will ever be the case. Let him play both PG and SG off the bench and that is where he will help the team most.

There is no real advantage to bringing a better player off the bench. However, let's go with this flawed thinking momentarily.

Let's Say Woody gave Marvin the old Royal Ivey treatment. Let Marvin start every game for a few minutes and then put in the more productive player. How would you feel?

[Crank]

If Bibby is healthy and Teague is starting by March, either Teague is the 2nd coming of Chris Paul and we are going to compete for the NBA championship or the season is an unmitigated disaster. I can't see anything in between.

As for Crawford, I think he is definitely going to help us but if he was THAT much of a difference maker, why has he NEVER played for a playoff team?

Well I think Sund in his interview said it best . Crawford and there are other around the league as well can help a winning team but are not good enough to take a bad team from bad to good . .There are very players in the league that can do that and they are all franchise players. Do you think Crawford as a player is good enough to overcome whatever Marbury /Isiah had going on in Ny ? Have you seen the Marbury video streams ? hes crazy . :) We could take Joe and put him on those teams and I dont think the outcome wouldnt have been much different.

[Diesel]

If Bibby is healthy and Teague is starting by March, either Teague is the 2nd coming of Chris Paul and we are going to compete for the NBA championship or the season is an unmitigated disaster. I can't see anything in between.

As for Crawford, I think he is definitely going to help us but if he was THAT much of a difference maker, why has he NEVER played for a playoff team?

Sometimes you can't pick your teams.

Joe played 2 years here before he took us to the playoffs. Those were horrible seasons. Do you think Joe was not a "difference maker"? Look at the teams that Crawford played for:

1. Chicago = Too young to be any good. Horrible coaching. Horrible mix of players. One of the worst GMed teams ever put together.

2. NY = Can I just say: Isiah, Marbury, and Curry?? Can I just say that?

3. GS = Very injured team: Jackson = 59 games. Maggette = 51 games. Bidrens = 62 games. Ellis = 25 games. Wright = 39 games. These are the leaders of this team All of them missing at least 20 games. The only consistent player they had was Ronnie Turiaf. You can't build the consistent to make it to the playoffs when you have that much missing personnel.

[Traceman]

Well I think Sund in his interview said it best . Crawford and there are other around the league as well can help a winning team but are not good enough to take a bad team from bad to good . .There are very players in the league that can do that and they are all franchise players. Do you think Crawford as a player is good enough to overcome whatever Marbury /Isiah had going on in Ny ? Have you seen the Marbury video streams ? hes crazy . :) We could take Joe and put him on those teams and I dont think the outcome wouldnt have been much different.

I think Crawford is going to help us a LOT. I think he was a great acquisition. That said, I don't see him as a player that will singlehandedly make us blow out teams that we were close with last year. Hoepfully, he will just help us win our fair share of games the road.

[Diesel]

I think Crawford is going to help us a LOT. I think he was a great acquisition. That said, I don't see him as a player that will singlehandedly make us blow out teams that we were close with last year. Hoepfully, he will just help us win our fair share of games the road.

If you're trying to quote me here, I have to correct you. I said that he would help us blow out those teams that we were supposed to beat and beat those teams that would give us close games.. That's not suggesting that we will win every game with Craw. I think that there are some matchups that are just not good for us period (unless we get better personnel). But I think that we will see more blow outs than we saw last year because I think the thing that Craw will bring is better efficiency on offense.

[Diesel]

If Bibby is healthy and Teague is starting by March, either Teague is the 2nd coming of Chris Paul and we are going to compete for the NBA championship or the season is an unmitigated disaster. I can't see anything in between.

I watched Teague at Wake Forest. He's not Paul, but he's not far from Paul either. He's definitely a skilled player and a leader. I don't think he will stay off the court for long. I want to see the dynamic between him and Bibby. I think he has a lot of respect for Bibby and Joe but I hope he is given room to play. This is why getting another player like Craw is good. Craw will help us get more blowouts so that we can put Teague in and let him play through mistakes... I think it will take until about March before Teague is starting... partly because of experience.. but there may be a coaching change by then as well.

[Traceman]

Sometimes you can't pick your teams.

Joe played 2 years here before he took us to the playoffs. Those were horrible seasons. Do you think Joe was not a "difference maker"? Look at the teams that Crawford played for:

1. Chicago = Too young to be any good. Horrible coaching. Horrible mix of players. One of the worst GMed teams ever put together.

2. NY = Can I just say: Isiah, Marbury, and Curry?? Can I just say that?

3. GS = Very injured team: Jackson = 59 games. Maggette = 51 games. Bidrens = 62 games. Ellis = 25 games. Wright = 39 games. These are the leaders of this team All of them missing at least 20 games. The only consistent player they had was Ronnie Turiaf. You can't build the consistent to make it to the playoffs when you have that much missing personnel.

Please don't compare Crawford to JJ. He's nowhere near the all around player JJ is. In addition:

1. Chicago - As for the CHI team being too young with horrible coaching, they traded Crawford to the Knicks after the 03-04 season and went to the playoffs in 04-05.

2. NY - The Knicks made the playoffs in 03-04. The didn't make it in 04-05 after acquiring Crawford.

3. GS - They won 48 games in 07-08 before acquiring Crawford but missed the playoffs because 8 teams in the WC won 50. They only won 29 games in 08-09 after acquiring Crawford.

Every team Crawford has left has gotten SIGNIFICANTLY better the season after he left and every team he has gone to has gotten signifcantly worse after his arrival. Let's hope that trend does not continue. Bottom line, Crawford is either the unluckiest player in the NBA or you are over-valuing his worth.

[Crank]

Please don't compare Crawford to JJ. He's nowhere near the all around player JJ is. In addition:

1. Chicago - As for the CHI team being too young with horrible coaching, they traded Crawford to the Knicks after the 03-04 season and went to the playoffs in 04-05.

That was the team the Bulls ended the season with after trading jalen Rose for Davis and Williams and Chandler missed almost the entire year with some injury and Scott Skiles took over after the season started

Jamal Crawford

Eddy Curry

Jannero Pargo

Kirk Hinrich

Kendall Gill

Antonio Davis

Marcus Fizer

Eddie Robinson

Jerome Williams

Ronald Dupree

Tyson Chandler

Scottie Pippen

Linton Johnson III

Chris Jefferies

Rick Brunson

and after Crawford left this was the team

Eddy Curry

Kirk Hinrich

Ben Gordon

Luol Deng

Andres Nocioni

Tyson Chandler

Othella Harrington

Antonio Davis

Jannero Pargo

Chris Duhon

Eric Piatkowski

Lawrence Funderburke

Adreian Griffin

Jared Reiner

Frank Williams

cmon lol they got rid of Crawford has Skiles coaching for a full training camp an older Hinrich ,and both Curry and Chandler were healthy the most of the year . Do you really think they got better because they signed and traded Crawford to the knicks

2. NY - The Knicks made the playoffs in 03-04. The didn't make it in 04-05 after acquiring Crawford.

The knicks had Allan Houston before Crawford arrived didnt they ?and that was basically the last time he was healthy. They didnt bring Crawford in to start he was gonna be the 3rd guard but Houston basically never played again . Do you really think after hearing everythings that went on with the kniucks that Crawford was the reason they didnt make the playoffs ?

3. GS - They won 48 games in 07-08 before acquiring Crawford but missed the playoffs because 8 teams in the WC won 50. They only won 29 games in 08-09 after acquiring Crawford.

How come you decide to use reasoning and include a why the warriors didnt make the playoffs but then dont mention how essentially the Warriors other top 5 players all missed significant time and Crawford didnt even have a training camp with the team . Cmon :)

Every team Crawford has left has gotten SIGNIFICANTLY better the season after he left and every team he has gone to has gotten signifcantly worse after his arrival. Let's hope that trend does not continue. Bottom line, Crawford is either the unluckiest player in the NBA or you are over-valuing his worth.

The Bulls upgraded the overall coaching and talent level of the team .Thats like someone saying Al Jefferson was holding down Boston because after he left the Celts won a title nevermind they added multiple good players

The knicks wouldve been bad whether Crawford had joined or not as behind Allan Houston they had Shandon Anderson and Penny Hardaway.

The Warriors shouldnt even be considered because he was traded after the season started to a team who was already below .500 and the other top players were either out or missing a bunch of time with injuries

I dont think hes unlucky or overrated I just know hes not a franchise player and if I understand that then I know hes not to blame for those teams not being better because when I think about who was considered the best players on those teams that tells me all I needed to know about why they didnt succeed .

[Traceman]

That was the team the Bulls ended the season with after trading jalen Rose for Davis and Williams and Chandler missed almost the entire year with some injury and Scott Skiles took over after the season started

Jamal Crawford

Eddy Curry

Jannero Pargo

Kirk Hinrich

Kendall Gill

Antonio Davis

Marcus Fizer

Eddie Robinson

Jerome Williams

Ronald Dupree

Tyson Chandler

Scottie Pippen

Linton Johnson III

Chris Jefferies

Rick Brunson

and after Crawford left this was the team

Eddy Curry

Kirk Hinrich

Ben Gordon

Luol Deng

Andres Nocioni

Tyson Chandler

Othella Harrington

Antonio Davis

Jannero Pargo

Chris Duhon

Eric Piatkowski

Lawrence Funderburke

Adreian Griffin

Jared Reiner

Frank Williams

cmon lol they got rid of Crawford has Skiles coaching for a full training camp an older Hinrich ,and both Curry and Chandler were healthy the most of the year . Do you really think they got better because they signed and traded Crawford to the knicks

2. NY - The Knicks made the playoffs in 03-04. The didn't make it in 04-05 after acquiring Crawford.

The knicks had Allan Houston before Crawford arrived didnt they ?and that was basically the last time he was healthy. They didnt bring Crawford in to start he was gonna be the 3rd guard but Houston basically never played again . Do you really think after hearing everythings that went on with the kniucks that Crawford was the reason they didnt make the playoffs ?

How come you decide to use reasoning and include a why the warriors didnt make the playoffs but then dont mention how essentially the Warriors other top 5 players all missed significant time and Crawford didnt even have a training camp with the team . Cmon :)

The Bulls upgraded the overall coaching and talent level of the team .Thats like someone saying Al Jefferson was holding down Boston because after he left the Celts won a title nevermind they added multiple good players

The knicks wouldve been bad whether Crawford had joined or not as behind Allan Houston they had Shandon Anderson and Penny Hardaway.

The Warriors shouldnt even be considered because he was traded after the season started to a team who was already below .500 and the other top players were either out or missing a bunch of time with injuries

I dont think hes unlucky or overrated I just know hes not a franchise player and if I understand that then I know hes not to blame for those teams not being better because when I think about who was considered the best players on those teams that tells me all I needed to know about why they didnt succeed .

I agree 100% that he is not a franchise player and that was my point. Diesel made a concerted effort to compare Crawford's situation to JJ's situation when he first came to the Hawks. I contend that if you put JJ in Crawford's place in ANY of the situations that Crawford has been in, ALL of the teams would have been better off with JJ.

The Bulls, Knicks and GS would not have traded JJ in the first place, they would have built around him. The Bulls signed and traded Crawford because they believed that could get better players to replace him. Same goes for NY and GS.

Conversely, I don't think the Hawks sniff the playoffs the last 2 years if you replace JJ with Crawford. I just don't see it.

I LIKE Crawford. I think he is a good fit for us based on what he is going to be asked to do. However, Diesel would have you believe that he is close to JJ as a player and that the Hawks are doing him some kind of disservice by asking him to come off the bench. That is simply not the case.

[MaceCase]

I agree 100% that he is not a franchise player and that was my point. Diesel made a concerted effort to compare Crawford's situation to JJ's situation when he first came to the Hawks. I contend that if you put JJ in Crawford's place in ANY of the situations that Crawford has been in, ALL of the teams would have been better off with JJ.

The Bulls, Knicks and GS would not have traded JJ in the first place, they would have built around him. The Bulls signed and traded Crawford because they believed that could get better players to replace him. Same goes for NY and GS.

Conversely, I don't think the Hawks sniff the playoffs the last 2 years if you replace JJ with Crawford. I just don't see it.

I LIKE Crawford. I think he is a good fit for us based on what he is going to be asked to do. However, Diesel would have you believe that he is close to JJ as a player and that the Hawks are doing him some kind of disservice by asking him to come off the bench. That is simply not the case.

I will agree with you on the Bulls getting rid of Crawford for a better team but NY got rid of him for one thing only and that is 2010 which I guess could be to get a real franchise player and GS got rid of him because of Ellis, their franchise player..... I guess I agree with you all around then. Beyond that, GS acquired Crawford because they had no idea whether Ellis would return or be half the player he was before the ankle injury but once he came back like gangbusters they realized a new problem, they couldn't share the court at the same time. Niether Crawford nor Ellis can defend SGs, when Baron was in GS he would guard 2s while Ellis guarded PGs and when he was in NY Crawford would guard 1s while Marbury guarded SGs. This is why starting Crawford would be a disaster because there are those that will tell you he works fine with Joe but they are entirely overlooking how he works with Bibby. Bibby can't defend anything yet alone 2guards or PGs, last year Woody would try to hide Bibby by playing him on weak SFs like a James Jones but all they would do is post him and shoot over him. Crawford may have the height and length to to play SG but he doesn't have the strentgh or body frame to guard them and he lacks some quickness to guard PGs but his size is more of an advantage there.

I don't care what one person will tell you that we can't make that judgement without knowing team scheme but we already know what the scheme has been and better yet we know the personel. Unless we replace Smoove and Al with Tim Duncan and Dwight Howard there is no way a backcourt that porous can succeed unless they have players that can absolutely shut down the middle. For all this talk of Joe being a great defender... he's going to have to be. He no longer will have Marvin right next to him to guard the best perimeter players the majority of the game, Joe will draw that assignment night in and night out which will damage his effectiveness. Add in that his backup is starting next to him and this team will be far more sporadic and inefficient next year having Joe wear himself out on defense and the guys supposed to be shouldering some of his offensive load getting torched on the other end. Anyone who tells you otherwise just doesn't know basketball or they have their own agenda that they are trying to fufill. If they are trully campaigning for Crawford to start then why not over Bibby then? He only was GS starting PG for most of last year, why is he coming in and playing SG now and moving Joe to SF? They mention his scoring and assist numbers but don't those seperate him more from our resident starting PG rather than our starting SF? I'll await to see if that argument gets brought to the forefront though, if ever.

[Traceman]

I will agree with you on the Bulls getting rid of Crawford for a better team but NY got rid of him for one thing only and that is 2010 which I guess could be to get a real franchise player and GS got rid of him because of Ellis, their franchise player..... I guess I agree with you all around then. Beyond that, GS acquired Crawford because they had no idea whether Ellis would return or be half the player he was before the ankle injury but once he came back like gangbusters they realized a new problem, they couldn't share the court at the same time. Niether Crawford nor Ellis can defend SGs, when Baron was in GS he would guard 2s while Ellis guarded PGs and when he was in NY Crawford would guard 1s while Marbury guarded SGs. This is why starting Crawford would be a disaster because there are those that will tell you he works fine with Joe but they are entirely overlooking how he works with Bibby. Bibby can't defend anything yet alone 2guards or PGs, last year Woody would try to hide Bibby by playing him on weak SFs like a James Jones but all they would do is post him and shoot over him. Crawford may have the height and length to to play SG but he doesn't have the strentgh or body frame to guard them and he lacks some quickness to guard PGs but his size is more of an advantage there.

I don't care what one person will tell you that we can't make that judgement without knowing team scheme but we already know what the scheme has been and better yet we know the personel. Unless we replace Smoove and Al with Tim Duncan and Dwight Howard there is no way a backcourt that porous can succeed unless they have players that can absolutely shut down the middle. For all this talk of Joe being a great defender... he's going to have to be. He no longer will have Marvin right next to him to guard the best perimeter players the majority of the game, Joe will draw that assignment night in and night out which will damage his effectiveness. Add in that his backup is starting next to him and this team will be far more sporadic and inefficient next year having Joe wear himself out on defense and the guys supposed to be shouldering some of his offensive load getting torched on the other end. Anyone who tells you otherwise just doesn't know basketball or they have their own agenda that they are trying to fufill. If they are trully campaigning for Crawford to start then why not over Bibby then? He only was GS starting PG for most of last year, why is he coming in and playing SG now and moving Joe to SF? They mention his scoring and assist numbers but don't those seperate him more from our resident starting PG rather than our starting SF? I'll await to see if that argument gets brought to the forefront though, if ever.

I think it is pretty obvious that Diesel won't be happy as long as Marvin is a Hawk. Period. Even if he were coming off the bench, the next question would be "why is Marvin getting minutes ahead of Mo Evans?" You are also right that starting Crawford at PG would be a better option than starting him at SG and moving JJ to SF. I wouldn't start him, I'd stick with Bibby as the starter, but it certainly makes more sense to start him at PG rather than SG for all the reasons you mentioned.

[Diesel]

We are a few games in....

[jy23]

We are a few games in....

And Craw is showing that he's a beast off the bench, Marvin is stinking up the joint right now but Craw is still a beautiful weapon off the bench