Marvin bashing is getting old, unwarranted, and hypocritical

[Diesel]

I'm really on the fence about Marvin, but I was listening to ESPN Radio on my way home last night and Brian Kenney made some points about AI that made me think about Marvin. He was saying AI was always a guy that was "going to get his". That didn't necessarily mean he was a productive player, it just meant he took enough shots to eventually get his 25-35 points. He said guys like AI are not good for teams because they are always looking out for themselves. There aren't enough "team oriented players" out there anymore. I instantly thought of Marvin how he doesn't look for his shot and seldom does he have anything run for him. He's a kick out option or afterthought on offense. On this team, I'm not sure if that's a bad thing necessarily. Could it have stunted his growth (not being a go-to option)? Maybe, but I have no problem with him averaging 10-13PPG on THIS team. Yeah, you expect more from a 2nd overall pick, but he's not hurting this team most of the time. Just my opinion and some random thoughts.

Sorry Drag, but that's a fallacy.

Marvin is not holding back a 25-35 ppg average for the sake of the team. We all know that Marvin doesn't have it in him to be much more than he already is. His limitation is not what makes him a team oriented player. IF that's the case, then let's just say that Salim and Acie were team oriented guys.

[Diesel]

I will believe that when this no longer appears in your posts:

You know AHF, Context is everything....

Marvin = guy that we have to make excuses for. But was drafted higher than everybody else on the team and in the franchise's history.

I'm not saying we need 20 a night from Marvin.

Nor I am blaming Marvin for 2005.

But somewhere we have to hold Marvin accountable for what's going on with him in 2010.

In 2010, he still defers on offense.

In 2010, he's less aggressive.

In 2010, he's still inconsistent.

In 2010, he can't hit the side of a barn when he has a wide open look.

In 2010, he still can't put the ball on the floor without tripping over his feet or just running head first into a defender.

This is my original quote.

The way you put the first sentence last and the second sent first and you totally ignore the point...which followed..... I have to wonder, what's your agenda here?

[Dragitoff]

Sorry Drag, but that's a fallacy.

Marvin is not holding back a 25-35 ppg average for the sake of the team. We all know that Marvin doesn't have it in him to be much more than he already is. His limitation is not what makes him a team oriented player. IF that's the case, then let's just say that Salim and Acie were team oriented guys.

I never implied Marvin was a 25-35PPG guy. I simply stated the fact that had he been on a team where he was the 1st or 2nd option, he might have progressed to the levels everyone expected him to, but since he's not even the 3rd option on offense at any time, his offensive numbers aren't likely to get any better. I think the Hawks have a serious deficiency in maturing players that need additional attention. Take Smoove. All the talent in the world, but he still to this day, argues and whines about every call he thinks he should have gotten. Just this season he realized he should stop shooting 3's. Look at players like Jeff Teague and Acie Law. Barely get any PT despite playing positions of need for the Hawks. The jury is still out on Teague, but I think Law missed out on valuable minutes that could have changed the type of player he is now.

I agree, Marvin has his flaws. Quite a few, but I think he's a solid fit for this team, albeit at an inflated salary.

[spotatl]

Dragitoff- we really don't have much evidence that Woodson gives up on young players too early. All the young guys that have moved on have fallen flat on their faces even under new coaches. The only guy that Woodson has totally whiffed on was Diaw.

Edited March 3, 2010 by spotatl

[KDT88]

My problem with Marvin is that he consistently makes a good situation bad all by himself. 3 on 1 fastbreak....Marvin finds a way to let the ball get away from him out of bounds. Things like this happen all the time that all me and my brother can do is laugh. He's always messing up. I'm rooting for the guy because its just sad.

Edited March 3, 2010 by KDT88

[MVP23]

I'm glad that you can find the flaws in some of the guys I named, but yet, you can't find the flaws In Marvin?

Wally and Donyell are a billion years old, yet for the vet Min, they can both produce more than Marvin.

Larry Hughes is a guard and Joe can play 3. And for the vet min, he will outproduce Marvin.

Juilus Hodges may be a poor man's Tyrus Thomas but for the vet Min, he will outproduce Marvin.

Gerald Green is not a poor Man's SMoove... But he would out produce Marvin for the vet Min.

Marvin is better than everyone you've listed. He is perfect...but he also isn't a bum....Gerald Green lmfao

[coachx]

I think we just need a Marvin sticky. Then every new Marvin thread will get merged into that one. I think eventually people will tire of posting in that thread.

Agree 100% and have suggested the same thing.

It seems the mods may be more concerned with web site traffic then web site quality.

There is no question that placing all the Marvin post in the same thread would improve the site's quality.............but it may hurt the traffic since certain posters only reason for living is to bash Marvin any and every chance they get and seem to get a "rush" out of creating new threads about the same old topic.

[Gray Mule]

Dragitoff- we really don't have much evidence that Woodson gives up on young players too early. All the young guys that have moved on have fallen flat on their faces even under new coaches. The only guy that Woodson has totally whiffed on was Diaw.

Then, if this is true, all the fault lies with the General Manager. He is the person responsible for these players

being on the Hawks roster. Every one of them. And, this covers two GMs.

I have to believe that there is enough blame so that both get an equal share. Let's not put all the blame on our GM

not all of it on Woody.

I think they are both somewhat guilty.

:cant believe:

[mrhonline]

Agree 100% and have suggested the same thing.

It seems the mods may be more concerned with web site traffic then web site quality.

There is no question that placing all the Marvin post in the same thread would improve the site's quality.............but it may hurt the traffic since certain posters only reason for living is to bash Marvin any and every chance they get and seem to get a "rush" out of creating new threads about the same old topic.

Dolfan has stated publicly that he doesn't want to sticky a Marvin thread for consistency's sake (i.e., wouldn't he then have to have a sticky for every other player on the team?).

Since he has put in a gigantic amount of work to help make this site as awesome as it is, it's his call. I would suggest those interested in a "Marvin sticky" start a thread on the "Suggestions/Comments/Help" board and discuss it with him there.

[spotatl]

Graymule- if a GM gives a coach a player who simply isn't any good, what do you think they should do? Play them anyway so that the fans can see for themselves how much they suck? TO me its to Woodson's credit that he didn't waste as many minutes on guys like Acie and Salim as casual fans wanted If those guys moved on and other coaches were getting great production out of them then hell yes you can then blame woodson, but we have quite a few guys now who have moved on and did nothing. To me woodson has a pretty damn good track record of being able to assess young talent.

Edited March 3, 2010 by spotatl

[MVP23]

Graymule- if a GM gives a coach a player who simply isn't any good, what do you think they should do? Play them anyway so that the fans can see for themselves how much they suck? TO me its to Woodson's credit that he didn't waste as many minutes on guys like Acie and Salim as casual fans wanted If those guys moved on and other coaches were getting great production out of them then hell yes you can then blame woodson, but we have quite a few guys now who have moved on and did nothing. To me woodson has a pretty damn good track record of being able to assess young talent.

Sheldon, Acie, and Salim are all terrible, hence, neither one is on the team anymore. I seriously doubt Woody would just start Marvin just because he was drafted pretty high when Acie was 4 spots below Marv, and Sheldon was 3 spots below Marv

..Face it people, Marvin can play, and he contributes..I don't understand why people hate this guy so much.

[MVP23]

Dolfan has stated publicly that he doesn't want to sticky a Marvin thread for consistency's sake (i.e., wouldn't he then have to have a sticky for every other player on the team?).

Since he has put in a gigantic amount of work to help make this site as awesome as it is, it's his call. I would suggest those interested in a "Marvin sticky" start a thread on the "Suggestions/Comments/Help" board and discuss it with him there.

That would kill our traffic and make the forum boring as hell. Then, we would have to make a thread about every player like someone said, and there would be nothing to talk about after a while. As long as the threads aren't replicas of others I don't mind....but of course, every Marvin hate thread is filled with the same garbage so...

[coachx]

That would kill our traffic and make the forum boring as hell. Then, we would have to make a thread about every player like someone said, and there would be nothing to talk about after a while. As long as the threads aren't replicas of others I don't mind....but of course, every Marvin hate thread is filled with the same garbage so...

Marvin is definately in a class of his own.........as far as the # of hate threads go. Plenty of other threads morph into Marvin hate threads when the original topic was on an entirely different subject.

MVP, your lucky you have only had to put up with it for 8 months.................most of us have to deal with this garbage for 5 years and counting and it will never stop.

The mods here do a great job...........especially dolfan since he has been at it for years now. Props to all the mods for making this the best public forum on the web !

Edited March 3, 2010 by coachx

[AHF]

You know AHF, Context is everything....

This is my original quote.

The way you put the first sentence last and the second sent first and you totally ignore the point...which followed..... I have to wonder, what's your agenda here?

My agenda is to get you to stop posting about Marvin's draft position since you say it doesn't matter and that you only evaluate him based on present circumstances but you have literally brought it up over 100 times on this site.

If it doesn't matter anymore, then why bring it up? The only man responsible for Marvin being the #2 pick has been gone from Atlanta for some time. Marvin didn't select himself #2; Sund isn't invested in making Knight look good; and the contract Marvin signed was reasonable enough at the time that you blessed it.

Can we agree to drop the whole Chris Paul/#2 Pick angle on this and deal with Marvin on his merits? There is plenty of ammo based on his play this season that you don't need to keep reaching for the "highest drafted player in franchise history other than David Thompson, d*ck Ricketts and Mark Workman each selected at #1 overall" card.

[Diesel]

I never implied Marvin was a 25-35PPG guy. I simply stated the fact that had he been on a team where he was the 1st or 2nd option, he might have progressed to the levels everyone expected him to, but since he's not even the 3rd option on offense at any time, his offensive numbers aren't likely to get any better. I think the Hawks have a serious deficiency in maturing players that need additional attention. Take Smoove. All the talent in the world, but he still to this day, argues and whines about every call he thinks he should have gotten. Just this season he realized he should stop shooting 3's. Look at players like Jeff Teague and Acie Law. Barely get any PT despite playing positions of need for the Hawks. The jury is still out on Teague, but I think Law missed out on valuable minutes that could have changed the type of player he is now.

I agree, Marvin has his flaws. Quite a few, but I think he's a solid fit for this team, albeit at an inflated salary.

Again, I'm saying Marvin doesn't have it in him to be a first or second option.

Let's put it this way, IF Marvin played for the Kings right now. He would not be a first or second option.

[Diesel]

My agenda is to get you to stop posting about Marvin's draft position since you say it doesn't matter and that you only evaluate him based on present circumstances but you have literally brought it up over 100 times on this site.

If it doesn't matter anymore, then why bring it up? The only man responsible for Marvin being the #2 pick has been gone from Atlanta for some time. Marvin didn't select himself #2; Sund isn't invested in making Knight look good; and the contract Marvin signed was reasonable enough at the time that you blessed it.

Can we agree to drop the whole Chris Paul/#2 Pick angle on this and deal with Marvin on his merits? There is plenty of ammo based on his play this season that you don't need to keep reaching for the "highest drafted player in franchise history other than David Thompson, d*ck Ricketts and Mark Workman each selected at #1 overall" card.

Let's put it like this.

The fact that he was picked before better players doesn't matter.

The fact that we have wasted time and resources on him because he was picked 2nd.. Does.

Resources in the form of moving players to make room for him.

Giving him the starting position when he wasn't worthy.

Giving him a second contract worth more than his play has shown.

We're still making decisions about Marvin based on his "POTENTIAL".

Well, what I am saying is that the fact that he was picked ahead of Deron and Paul and a gang of other players isn't here are there.

But the fact that his "Potential" still affords him things (mentioned above) that other players in the league doesn't get should make every fan want some accountability.

I hope that clears it for you.

You can check.. I stopped talking about Deron and Paul Long ago. However, I will talk about accountability.

[AHF]

Let's put it like this.

The fact that he was picked before better players doesn't matter.

The fact that we have wasted time and resources on him because he was picked 2nd.. Does.

Resources in the form of moving players to make room for him.

Giving him the starting position when he wasn't worthy.

Giving him a second contract worth more than his play has shown.

We're still making decisions about Marvin based on his "POTENTIAL".

Well, what I am saying is that the fact that he was picked ahead of Deron and Paul and a gang of other players isn't here are there.

But the fact that his "Potential" still affords him things (mentioned above) that other players in the league doesn't get should make every fan want some accountability.

I hope that clears it for you.

You can check.. I stopped talking about Deron and Paul Long ago. However, I will talk about accountability.

I don't mind talking about accountability but where he was drafted has nothing to do with accountability.

You believed the contract he signed was fair at the time it was signed so I hardly see that as a reason to blast him. Blasting him for not living up to it makes sense - blasting him or Sund for the contract being put in place based on his #2 selection or his "potential" doesn't make as much sense. Unless your position today is that Marvin's second contract was a gift from Sund to Marvin because Marvin was picked #2 overall, then you can make the same points but omit reference to his draft position from future posts.

[MVP23]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=mc-thabeetdleague030310&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Marvin haters can log off now.

[Joker]

I never implied Marvin was a 25-35PPG guy. I simply stated the fact that had he been on a team where he was the 1st or 2nd option, he might have progressed to the levels everyone expected him to, but since he's not even the 3rd option on offense at any time, his offensive numbers aren't likely to get any better. I think the Hawks have a serious deficiency in maturing players that need additional attention. Take Smoove. All the talent in the world, but he still to this day, argues and whines about every call he thinks he should have gotten. Just this season he realized he should stop shooting 3's. Look at players like Jeff Teague and Acie Law. Barely get any PT despite playing positions of need for the Hawks. The jury is still out on Teague, but I think Law missed out on valuable minutes that could have changed the type of player he is now.

I agree, Marvin has his flaws. Quite a few, but I think he's a solid fit for this team, albeit at an inflated salary.

I have to say this, Marvin can't create his own shot but majority of SF's can't and some of them who can avg. 17 ppg. Danny Granger cannot create his own shot consistently and he average 20+ ppg. Sometimes who your around matters and Marvin is still learning the game. This is only his 5th year at SF. It can take some time especially when confidence isn't easily gained.

[Diesel]

I don't mind talking about accountability but where he was drafted has nothing to do with accountability.

You believed the contract he signed was fair at the time it was signed so I hardly see that as a reason to blast him. Blasting him for not living up to it makes sense - blasting him or Sund for the contract being put in place based on his #2 selection or his "potential" doesn't make as much sense. Unless your position today is that Marvin's second contract was a gift from Sund to Marvin because Marvin was picked #2 overall, then you can make the same points but omit reference to his draft position from future posts.

About his second contract.

I said it then and I will say it now. I was not upset about his contract because you tell me 7.5 per year vs. 9.0 per year... I'm happy with 7.5. On the other hand, I made it no secret that I felt that we were over a barrell with Marvin because we couldn't afford to lose a #2 pick overall for NOTHING. He still had value. Does that mean that I'm jumping on the Marvin second contract train? Not really. We did what we had to do. I applauded Sund for recouping value that we can trade at a later date... However, I never thought or said that Marvin was worth the money.