If the Offseason Gives Any Indication; ASG/Sund says Woody is the Blame...For Everything

[khaos7]

My brother and I had a conversation this weekend about the lack of offseason movement. We both feel that bad contracts and tight purses are the main reasons we didn't make any major additions to the roster. Neither one of us believe that the ASG is as enamored with the core group as they'd what us to believe. We think they have pieces they'd like to trade (ie Bibby's contract) that no one will bite on.

However, we figured the ASG can't come out and publicly say the aforementioned variables above are the reasons we still have the same roster that was unceremoniously swept out the 2nd round two years in a row (this second time by a record margin).

Aside from resigning Joe, the only major move that Hawks made was resigning Woody. Sund and Company said we needed a new voice. Thus LD was promoted.

So, if we go STRICTLY off the offseason moves (or lack thereof), Sund stating "we like our core", the fact that Woody was dismissed, and everything we've heard out of Sund's/the ASG's mouth, are we to believe that Woody is the reason this team flopped so miserably?

Mind you, I'm only using things that Sund has said and moves he's made. In sum, it would "appear" that they are pushing all the blame on Woody.

-Not the players lack of heart

-Not the holes they have in the roster

I was one that thought Woody should have been fired/let go. I still maintain that was the right thing to do. However, I don't believe he should be the scapegoat. This offseason would make it appear that the ASG thought he was the ultimate blame.

We know they are tight in the pockets and have lost millions of dollars. That said, we know its not good business for them to state that's the reason they haven't been active this offseason. Thus, intentionally/unintentionally Woody is the only person being held accountable for the Hawks issues. That's flat out wrong.

[Diesel]

Here's my take.

I think ASG/Sund realizes how big a mistake that they made by resigning Marvin/Bibby last season. Even though neither contract alone was terrible, together, they represent dead wood. Lots of it. They resigned them because they wanted to keep continuity and see if they could go farther. Well, they went farther under Woody, but it was ugly. We lost some games we should have won. We looked bad in the playoffs and Woody was canned. I think the main problem with Woody was that he lost the players. The players were no longer under his control and his techniques were not working. They needed a new voice. ASG is hoping that for the time being LD can be the voice. They are betting that LD can keep us consistent until the money problems are fixed. They are hoping that LD can do something with Marvin to make him worth the money and turn Teague into a game changer. I think ASG/Sund are still very happy with the core, I just think that they want to see the core reach it's max. Play hard and show well.

The problem with that is that many of us see that the rest of the league has gotten better. Especially the east. Miami is better. Orlando is better. Boston is better. NY is better. NJ is better. Washington is better. Philly is better. What the rest of us see is that this can quickly turn into a situation where a good team is overshadowed by many of the teams that it had beaten before because it stayed pat and those other teams got lottery picks, Coaches and FAs to make themselves better.

The real question in my mind...

IS Woody a developer? Could Wood have been a developer if his job wasn't on the line? Or was Woody just interested in his program and he used players and pushed them into his square holes regardless of if they fit or not? Many people believe the latter. I think it's somewhere in between. I think that Woody was under a lot of pressure to win. I think it was that pressure that caused him not to develop what he could. Still, I don't think Woody had a very strong development plan and his doghouse thwarted every effort he had to develop players.

[khaos7]

^^^That's a real good take on things and I completely agree with your assessment of Woody. What's sad to me is that it appears that only Woody was held accountable for bad play. We all know that behind the scenes, there are other variables at play.

[NJHAWK]

It was all Woody's fault to them cats, lol. They also found a cheaper replacement for him. If we fail next year they will make Nique gm / Rathbuns sidekick / V.P. all at one low salary.

[Diesel]

It was all Woody's fault to them cats, lol. They also found a cheaper replacement for him. If we fail next year they will make Nique gm / Rathbuns sidekick / V.P. all at one low salary.

You have to believe that since 1/3 of the ASG are longtime Hawks fans, that Doc Rivers and maybe Dominique is in the longrange plans for the Hawks. I am beating the drum that the next Hawks HC is going to be Doc Rivers. GM, I'm not so sure.

[pimp]

You have to believe that since 1/3 of the ASG are longtime Hawks fans, that Doc Rivers and maybe Dominique is in the longrange plans for the Hawks. I am beating the drum that the next Hawks HC is going to be Doc Rivers. GM, I'm not so sure.

Why would Doc come here?

I'm sure he's not interested in being the lowest paid coach in the NBA. :kickcan:

[TomSelleck]

I agree and this is what I was talking about in my Billy Knight thread the other day. When the ASG let Knight walk in 2008 and kept Woodson, they basically were saying Knight built a flawed team but Woodson did the best that could be expected with those players. Now two years later we more or less have the same players, with a few of them making a lot more money, and the ASG is saying the players are fine the coach needs to get more out of them. Makes no sense to me.

[khaos7]

I understand that finances drive a lot of what we see. I get that. It's frustrating because finances seems to have a higher priority than basketball. If that weren't the case, how could letting Woody go (and replacing him with Drew) be the only move this organization makes in the offseason, worth note? You can't sell me that Woody was solely the blame for what we saw in the Spring. There should have been some player movement.

However, to the naked eye, it seems like the ASG/Sund is making Woody the fall guy for the Hawks failures. Of course we know better. We know money (and to a lesser degree love for the core group) has played a hand in all this. However, this summer would suggest Woody was the blame. And, as much as I wanted him gone, I think that the way this thing has played out with Woody playing the price is wrong.

[KB21]

I understand that finances drive a lot of what we see. I get that. It's frustrating because finances seems to have a higher priority than basketball. If that weren't the case, how could letting Woody go (and replacing him with Drew) be the only move this organization makes in the offseason, worth note? You can't sell me that Woody was solely the blame for what we saw in the Spring. There should have been some player movement.

However, to the naked eye, it seems like the ASG/Sund is making Woody the fall guy for the Hawks failures. Of course we know better. We know money (and to a lesser degree love for the core group) has played a hand in all this. However, this summer would suggest Woody was the blame. And, as much as I wanted him gone, I think that the way this thing has played out with Woody playing the price is wrong.

Here's the thing. Had Atlanta based their entire off season plan on the four games they played against Orlando in the playoffs, then it would have been no different than what they did back in 1997 or 1998 when Chris Crawford played great against the Knicks and convinced the Hawks to give him a long term deal. You don't shovel dirt onto a team that is still young and won 53 games last season. I mean, exactly what moves should have been made? Everyone wants to focus on the match up with Dwight Howard in the playoffs, and some have suggested moving Al Horford to power forward and getting a "true" center, a misnomer if there ever was one in today's NBA. If that's what everyone thinks, then fine. Who is that center that is better than Al is as a center but is also good enough to make Atlanta play Josh Smith off the bench or at small forward? Considering that Al is already statistically one of the top 5-6 centers in the game today, the list of centers that are actually better than Al is small.

[TomSelleck]

You don't shovel dirt onto a team that is still young and won 53 games last season. I mean, exactly what moves should have been made?

The Hawks may be young but the problem is they no longer have upside. Every player of any significance except Teague is already as good as he's ever going to be. So unless Teague is the next Rondo, 53 wins is as good as it's ever going to get.

[niremetal]

First off, put me in the camp that coaching was the one thing holding us back from being a true contender last year. But notice I said "coaching" and not "Woody."

The Hawks may be young but the problem is they no longer have upside. Every player of any significance except Teague is already as good as he's ever going to be. So unless Teague is the next Rondo, 53 wins is as good as it's ever going to get.

Yeah, because it's not like we have a young All-Star center who has improved every year he's been in the league despite rarely having plays drawn up for him...

[KB21]

The Hawks may be young but the problem is they no longer have upside. Every player of any significance except Teague is already as good as he's ever going to be. So unless Teague is the next Rondo, 53 wins is as good as it's ever going to get.

So, you are saying that Al and Josh, both 24 years of age, are currently as good as they will ever be right now?

[TomSelleck]

So, you are saying that Al and Josh, both 24 years of age, are currently as good as they will ever be right now?

Could each of them add some sort of refinement to their games? Yes. But in the big picture, they are who they are.

[Swatguy]

Could each of them add some sort of refinement to their games? Yes. But in the big picture, they are who they are.

Joe, Zaza, Mo, and Jamal are in their prime years with "refinement" is still available for them. Al, Josh, Marvn and Teague along with JC2 have significant upside. Josh in particular has Beastly Upside. nJosh has the potential to be an unstoppable player. Al has upside but cannot reach what Josh can be. Josh has the talent to redefine positions. He is a forward (point, small, power) player. I have thought about moving him but he has to much potential.

Since Marvin will not be moved in the short term, the hope is for him to evolve into his promise. If he does maybe Denver will take him, fillers and a #1 for Carmelo.

[khaos7]

Here's the thing. Had Atlanta based their entire off season plan on the four games they played against Orlando in the playoffs, then it would have been no different than what they did back in 1997 or 1998 when Chris Crawford played great against the Knicks and convinced the Hawks to give him a long term deal. You don't shovel dirt onto a team that is still young and won 53 games last season. I mean, exactly what moves should have been made? Everyone wants to focus on the match up with Dwight Howard in the playoffs, and some have suggested moving Al Horford to power forward and getting a "true" center, a misnomer if there ever was one in today's NBA. If that's what everyone thinks, then fine. Who is that center that is better than Al is as a center but is also good enough to make Atlanta play Josh Smith off the bench or at small forward? Considering that Al is already statistically one of the top 5-6 centers in the game today, the list of centers that are actually better than Al is small.

I get that you can't base it off four game. My opinion is based off eight games. Four against Cleveland and four against Orlando...two second round losses of epic portions two years in a row. Those games aren't just games. You win and you compete in the semi finals. I could also lump the lackluster efforts we showed against Miami (games we lost we lost in blow out fashion)and an undermanned Milwaukee team in the first rounds.

I'm not saying we should make Chris Crawford type snap judgements. However, I am saying that Woody wasn't totally at fault and we should have tried to upgrade a few positions (SF, PG, and the bench). Who is to say Teague will pan out? And if he doesn't, is Bibby all of a sudden going to be able to penetrate and guard his man? Marvin has been in the league now for five years. At what point do we say "he is who is" as opposed to "he still has potential?" And whose to say the bench will improve? Granted, one could say Woody didn't run plays for Marvin, develop players and utilize his bench. I'd counter by saying some of those guys didn't maximize their opportunities when given opportunites.

I don't think the players are totally to blame and Woody should be absolved from blame. However, at the end of the day, I believe the two year postseason sample we have would suggest both players and coaches should have been addressed. Unfortunately, the ASG can't address it's part in the entire deal.

[TomSelleck]

Joe, Zaza, Mo, and Jamal are in their prime years with "refinement" is still available for them. Al, Josh, Marvn and Teague along with JC2 have significant upside. Josh in particular has Beastly Upside. nJosh has the potential to be an unstoppable player. Al has upside but cannot reach what Josh can be. Josh has the talent to redefine positions. He is a forward (point, small, power) player. I have thought about moving him but he has to much potential.

Since Marvin will not be moved in the short term, the hope is for him to evolve into his promise. If he does maybe Denver will take him, fillers and a #1 for Carmelo.

Josh has been in the NBA 6 seasons now. I don't see him ever becoming much more than what he is right now. Horford could be featured a little more on offense, but I don't ever see him averaging more than 18-19 points per game compared to the 14 he averaged in 2008-2009. Marvin is a joke. Jordan Crawford is barely even going to see the floor this season. Teague is the only player with legit upside. If he has a Rondo-style trajectory, the Hawks could be a contender for the conference finals if they got the right match up. If Teague is just a guy, they're never going to be better than a 2nd round sacrificial lamb.