Call me Captain Obvious....

[Wretch]

PG - Bibby

SG - JJ

SF - Marvin (or Smoove)

PF - Smoove (or Horf)

C - Horf (or Collins)

.............hmmm.

I would look up the all kinds of supporting stats on all sorts of breakdowns...(I'm a network analyst so, I'm pretty good at that actually). But it would take me 2 hours to do this...instead of 1. Y'know...I used to do that long ago. People don't take you seriously unless you back up your opinions with some facts. When I stopped going round and round...the desire to dig up all these stats left with me and in the simplicity...I realized something. Now that I think about it, the last time I backed something with stats was about the time I realized how it's so much more simple than all that. It's why I was so fascinated with Chris Paul when a lot of people were criticizing his size. One of his stats that jumped out at me was his free throws and rebounding. This is a player who would go out some times and take more FT's and get more rebounds than entire front-courts. Decent collegiate front courts...

"I'm sorry Wretch...are we in 2005 still? OMG...you're posting this bullsh#t on the first day of the NEW YEAR!" (insert lolz and improper netspeak and whatnot where applicable)

Digressing? Yeah. Maybe a little. Still letting the toxins run through my system (Happy New Year Hawksquawk!). Anywho, the point about Paul...if I can remember where I was going, is that a guy that is projected that high in the draft, leading a team of nobodies to notoriety, with all those defensive accolades, putting up rebounding and FT numbers like that...man, there is something about him. Looking closer, guy is a point guard...you don't pass on a F'N franchise PG for anything but a franchise center...maybe. This says nothing of his A/TO ratio, FG%, ppg..etc. et al.

"Get to the point you rambling..." (insert derogatory put-down)

Read the recap of last night's game. I didn't watch the game (chasing the evening debauchery...you know how that goes), but a couple of things stood out to me. First this little bit:

The Hawks never led after the opening four minutes but pulled to 83-81 afterZaza Pachulia's layup to start the fourth quarter. Atlanta didn't make another basket for six minutes.

Ok...now let me see if I can string two completely different sets of information together to form a blanket observation about our current, beloved, Atlanta Hawks.

Every team has lapses. Even the best ones. BUT...there are better teams than us and there are teams that are seriously considered for contention. Teams that you would put your money on (you wouldn't put it on US! lol). But, if we have lapses...and they have lapses, then what's the difference? Why can't we pull these games out? I want to throw this out there "Because we don't have a superstar" because it's true. But...it'll get kicked around, torched by some pretty decent statistical arguments, etc. Thing is...these things don't win ballgames. In any sport. At the end of the day, it is all about those players... You know those guys:

It's that quarterback that operates, calm as a damn robot, in like...a pocket 2 inches wide. Or scrambles like a 5 year old that just sucked down a can of Red Bull. And they got an arm like the Terminator....and the eyes of a Hawk (lol, no pun)...and all that other good stuff. It's that lineman...pick one. You know...that dude who's as big as an F150, just as fast, and has those hands like...like the claws of a lion that just sink into a guy and once they get on him...it's over. (BTW...you're reading the words of a cat that can't currently name 20 football players *gasp*, yeah I know...here's my Mancard *hands it over with his head down* LOL, there's women in my office that can name more football players than me. Man...I seriously haven't watched since like15 years ago...but ok...back on track.)

It's that ridiculous pitching rotation that our Braves used to have...guys that just can't be hit. It's like they control the ball with their minds or something. It's that batter...like a ninja...that can swing that bat with such strength...and precision and could probably hit a marble flying across the plate at 95mph.

In basketball...it is that guy that can put the damn ball in the basket. Michael Jordan was remembered for a lot of things. He was so complete and so efficient in every aspect of the game. He had two things though that when you think about him, you just nod your head. #1) Jordan would not be denied. In his mind, he was absolutely going to win that game. #2) He put the ball in the basket.

During these stretches is where we lose games. Defense, hustle, effort...all of that is important, but listen people...do you realize how good these guys are? Even the ones you hate. Go play a pick up game with Mo Evans or Royal Ivey. There is a reason why the crappiest player in the NBA gets paid for one year what takes you like 20...and he's just a spectator basically. NBA players are good. All of them. You're not going to stop them from scoring the ball. The better teams will play better defense and will win championships. But you can't really worry about that...until you have a guy that the opposing team has to worry about. In the 6 minutes of that game that we went scoreless. Replace Marvin...with Carmelo. Replace Bibby with Chris Paul. Replace Joe Johnson...with Kobe Bryant.......................... We're going to get points (Chris Paul put 17 of them on us in the 2nd half of that loss @NO.) We stay in the game. We hustle. We play defense. We control the tempo and the momentum or at a minimum, we don't get folded over by it.

I know...I know...but seriously. Who do we give the ball to? (I could probably stop this right here, but I have another point...which should probably be another post in and of itself).

Read the tone of that recap. You notice something? It's is all about the Thunder and certain words are being tossed around. Words like "hope", "All Star", and "Contender".... Two years ago this time, we were high off our 1st playoff appearance. On course to win 50 games (which we should have won...). The Thunder...? 4-29 says the article. Man, it says so much about this team. We are going to hover here...around 45+ to 50+ wins. That's where we will stay. Bad teams like the Kings and Nets are going to rise above us, replacing Boston, LA, and Dallas. They'll be in the Championship series with Miami and OKC.

"Dammit Wretch...!!! Shut up already! Dude...WHAT do you propose huh? Where is YOUR plan!? What would YOU do!?!?!?"

Yep...(in my veteran Cop voice), let me tell you something. Something real...and I return to the deceptively random start this thread (HAH! FOOL! YOU'VE ACTIVATED MY G*DDAMNED TRAP CARD!):

PG - Bibby

SG - JJ

SF - Marvin (or Smoove)

PF - Smoove (or Horf)

C - Horf (or Collins)

^^Find my go to guy in there. Joe Johnson...at his best is a solid #2 guy. Just like Pippen. Now consider the fact that he's not the player Scottie Pippen was - and Pippen could not lead a team to the promised land. You think it might be JJ...you hope it's Horf...but you know the truth. You just don't want to say it. You want to argue about it and come up with another plan...another way. But you know the truth. Yeah...that ice cube that forms in your throat when you think about it. And when you swallow, chills you all the way down to your stomach. A trade is in order. What did LD say not to long ago:

"You always have to look to get better, especially if you're not of a Laker or Boston character," coach Larry Drew said. "...I don't know that it means that we're panicking and we do anything. We have to always entertain the fact, 'Can we do something to make our team better?' We can never be satisfied and that's what our upper branch is doing."

Let's see if i can close this up with a needle and a thread...and loop it back to the beginning.

It's all Marvin's fault. If he was James Worthy with a jump shot, we'd be the #1 seed in the East. Looking at contending. If we had selected Chis Paul, omg...the fast breaks and the alley-oops make the hairs on my arms stand up. If we could trade him and his 7 or so million dollars a year (in a package with like Jamal) and get an impact player in return... Either way, Marvin is like that day...you did that thing...that caused that injury...that is really not at the front of your mind...and really doesn't hurt anymore...but has caused all sorts of other problems.

If you want to be real about it......................................................you're going to have to give up Marvin and one of Smoove or Horford. Go fishing around other teams' message boards.

Peddle Marvin, Mo, Jamal...and anything else outside of our core that you can think of. OR...peddle Marvin and Smoove/Horford. See what kinds of fish bite.

It's what it is people.

It's what it is.

(So all that just to say...we need to trade one of Smoove/Horf + Marvin?)

*Looking around, wide eyed, eyebrows raised, like a nervous dancer who just finished a THRILLING tryout routine...with nobody clapping*

Well......yeah. I guess...?

[Joker]

Most fans don't value Atlanta talent like other executives because they look for attractiveness of talent. It's the reason why some ppl think Ariza better than Marvin and close to Joe with LAL when in reality, both of those players are better and it's showed when Ariza joined lesser teams.

I like your post, it's colorful but I always will say Pippen is a #1 option. I feel the Bulls had two #1's in Pippen and MJ. Pau Gasol is a #2, Joe is a #2. Those guys are number two options to me. This team is vested. Meaning in order to make a move, it must improve the team. In order to trade Smith, we must get a player a need position who is equal or greater talent who is also young. Look at the #'s. Joe and Horford by themselves means we can not sign another key FA and Smoove means we are near the LT. So deals for older or lesser players can not happen unless it doesn't include Smith, Horford, or Johnson. I think the fact that this team is hitting it's high point is telling you the anger Marvin is getting thrown at him. Just playing good basketball isn't enough to many, he has to be elite or a game-changer because that's what CP3 or Deron would have been in the minds of Hawks fans.

Just trading Marvin for the heck of it is a waste. If he's traded and averages 20ppg. Unlike Miami with Beasley, we can't defend the trade. We can't say, well we got Bosh and Bron. We would just end up with something worst and we in return would become a worst team who is hamstrung by salary. Letting Joe wouldn't help either as well would still not have the cap for an elite player. I really wished Atlanta would have signed Bibby to a smaller contract ( I know that PTL was on his tail) and we probably should have let Bron walk and get in the market for Lebron. But it is in the past now.

In other words, we have to win the trade with Smoove or no trade at all. What I mean by win is an All Star like Center like Bogut, B. Lopez, Dwight or an elite PG like Deron or CP3. We would need a PnR PG if PG is the direction and the only one I see in the wings are Kyrie Irving and Ricky Rubio and none of those are worth Smith, well at least Rubio isn't. The rest are old like Nash and Kidd. Any younger superstar would be a need in other words. We at least have an All Star type in Smoove so it's not all bad but it's not great either.

[Diesel]

While you released those toxins, there was a lot of things said that were said well. Do I think a trade is in order? I don't know. I mean, I know from a classical standpoint, we are broken. But the statistics says that we're better defensively and as efficient offensively than our team last year. The only thing... and it's one thing is that we don't have the rebounding or turnovers that we had last year. Which effects our scoring.

I think you also need to consider one more thing. Do you really need that take over guy? What about Clutch team play that every Piston Championship team had? You know, the other team doesn't know who will step up, but somebody always does? I guess you have to have a good PG for that to happen. And better defense than we have.

So know it's time to take a toast. (ala Kanye)

Let's toast to BK. Who had the faulty logic of picking Marvin over CP3. I mean, How many other SFs have ever been drafted 2nd overall? Even Melo couldn't be drafted 2nd.

Let's toast to Pete Babcock whoose years of ineptness led us to the worst fanbase in the league.

Let's toast to Rick Sund who is more baby sitter than GM. i.e. he has no vision for the future (at least BK had a vision).

Let's toast to Josh Smith who wants to be what he wants to be regardless of what his team needs!

Let's toast to Marvin who is both untradable and insconsistent. Thanks Marvin.

Let's toast to Bibby and Jamal for giving us Hope and taking us higher but really getting us nowhere.

Let's toast to the National media especially the FOUR letter who doesn't even recognize that our team exist.

Let's toast to LD who is the least paid coach in the league with the biggest job in the league.

Let's toast tot he ASG who finally got something accomplished.

[BrazilianHawk]

NICE POST! Happy New Year all!

And BTW, I do believe/hope we have some impending trades going on... But I would guess Smoove and Craw are going to go, not Marv or Horf.

[Wretch]

If you want to be technical, as a top 50 Pippen was a #1 option. Pippen at our SF with this lineup? Wow....we would be VERY good. Hell, we could probably play him at the 1 (Portland did quite a few times). But as that number #1 for the Bulls...he couldn't get it done. What did he say when MJ returned..."Big Brother" is back. Michale Jordan was a #1. As was Kareem, Kobe, Shaq, Nique, or Malone. If Jordan was a #1...then Pippen was a #2 (albeit a F'N GREAT #2). He could be a #1 for many teams now and back then, but his true value was not as a #1 scoring option but being that elite #2 glue guy that could score, rebound, pass, defend, and hit the 3.

On point...I'd pull the trigger right now on a blockbuster. You look at Orlando and you can make all sorts of arguments about giving up size, defense, etc. They're all true and very valid concerns. I don't know about Arenas, but VC to Phoenix for Turk and JRich....I love that. Either way, one of two things happen - NEITHER OF WHICH ARE HAPPENING HERE AS LONG AS WE SIT STILL:

A) This move makes Orlando better, and they actually get back to the finals and they...contend. They did just beat the dogsh#t out of San Antonio and Boston and are on a 5 game streak.

or

B) This move makes them worse off. In which case, they're forced to make more moves. Hell, they just wiped that team...that VERY good team that was sputtering a little. I imagine if stuff goes sour, there's no question what Orlando would do.

Point is...making a move guarantees something. It means that you will go up or down...but at some point, you will get the opportunity to get the pieces you need...to rise to the top. Not that you will have the pieces, just the opportunity to get them. Opportunity is how Boston got the Big 3 and a ring, it's how LA got...God...I can't count how many rings and WCF's. It's how Miami got Bosh and Bron. We need to create the opportunity. I made the analogy a long time ago that we were sitting outside a restaurant eating mayonnaise sandwiches while the rest of the NBA was eating GOOD. I want a steak man... We need to stop driving Miss Daisy. We need to get in the fast lane and try to make something happen - or crash this minivan and get a new car. I'd do a deal for a Melo or Paul or anyone of that caliber. RIGHT NOW. I'm sure many of you would. But truthfully, if they're not available...I'd deal for some of these young cats putting up decent numbers or with decent potential. Sure would.

Hell...I might even deal a guy with no guarantee that Melo will resign... I'd deal with being up and down for the next 6-7 years, as opposed to sitting in the middle twiddling our thumbs with a "just good enough" team.

BTW...I just realized something. Some of you cats were talking about Kevin Love and I really didn't pay attention to it...but that dude is putting up 20 and FIFTEEN rebounds per game... Yes it's just some big numbers and I don't know about being a face...but 20/15? HOT. DAMN. Didn't he go out the other day and drop a 30/30 or something too? Just saying...doesn't strike me as a savior but, DAMN. I know there's talk about softness and whatnot, but guys that pull down boards like that? That's one of those things you have to look at and not just brush off. That is 15 opportunities per game he's giving your team to score...and he's shoveling you 20 points too? I dunno man.... I dunno.....

Edited January 1, 2011 by Wretch

[Wretch]

...as i'm putting on my socks, getting ready to do some shopping with the wifey. I had to tack this on too:

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

-Albert Einstein

Edited January 1, 2011 by Wretch

[Joker]

If you want to be technical, as a top 50 Pippen was a #1 option. Pippen at our SF with this lineup? Wow....we would be VERY good. Hell, we could probably play him at the 1 (Portland did quite a few times). But as that number #1 for the Bulls...he couldn't get it done. What did he say when MJ returned..."Big Brother" is back. Michale Jordan was a #1. As was Kareem, Kobe, Shaq, Nique, or Malone. If Jordan was a #1...then Pippen was a #2 (albeit a F'N GREAT #2). He could be a #1 for many teams now and back then, but his true value was not as a #1 scoring option but being that elite #2 glue guy that could score, rebound, pass, defend, and hit the 3.

On point...I'd pull the trigger right now on a blockbuster. You look at Orlando and you can make all sorts of arguments about giving up size, defense, etc. They're all true and very valid concerns. I don't know about Arenas, but VC to Phoenix for Turk and JRich....I love that. Either way, one of two things happen - NEITHER OF WHICH ARE HAPPENING HERE AS LONG AS WE SIT STILL:

A) This move makes Orlando better, and they actually get back to the finals and they...contend. They did just beat the dogsh#t out of San Antonio and Boston and are on a 5 game streak.

or

B) This move makes them worse off. In which case, they're forced to make more moves. Hell, they just wiped that team...that VERY good team that was sputtering a little. I imagine if stuff goes sour, there's no question what Orlando would do.

Point is...making a move guarantees something. It means that you will go up or down...but at some point, you will get the opportunity to get the pieces you need...to rise to the top. Not that you will have the pieces, just the opportunity to get them. Opportunity is how Boston got the Big 3 and a ring, it's how LA got...God...I can't count how many rings and WCF's. It's how Miami got Bosh and Bron. We need to create the opportunity. I made the analogy a long time ago that we were sitting outside a restaurant eating mayonnaise sandwiches while the rest of the NBA was eating GOOD. I want a steak man... We need to stop driving Miss Daisy. We need to get in the fast lane and try to make something happen - or crash this minivan and get a new car. I'd do a deal for a Melo or Paul or anyone of that caliber. RIGHT NOW. I'm sure many of you would. But truthfully, if they're not available...I'd deal for some of these young cats putting up decent numbers or with decent potential. Sure would.

Hell...I might even deal a guy with no guarantee that Melo will resign... I'd deal with being up and down for the next 6-7 years, as opposed to sitting in the middle twiddling our thumbs with a "just good enough" team.

BTW...I just realized something. Some of you cats were talking about Kevin Love and I really didn't pay attention to it...but that dude is putting up 20 and FIFTEEN rebounds per game... Yes it's just some big numbers and I don't know about being a face...but 20/15? HOT. DAMN. Didn't he go out the other day and drop a 30/30 or something too? Just saying...doesn't strike me as a savior but, DAMN. I know there's talk about softness and whatnot, but guys that pull down boards like that? That's one of those things you have to look at and not just brush off. That is 15 opportunities per game he's giving your team to score...and he's shoveling you 20 points too? I dunno man.... I dunno.....

1. You said Pippen couldn't do it without MJ. Why did MJ not do it without Pippen? MJ/Pippen is like Westbrook/Durant, Penny/Shaq, Kobe/Shaq, Kareem/Magic, and Wade/Bron. It's an elite combination. Even though I didn't think Stockton was elite, I thought Stockton/Malone was an elite combination. Those players need each other to win titles no matter who good one individual is. The only single dominate one man teams are usually Centers and PG's with Tim Duncan as a tweener PF/C.

OT: Orlando has a dominate superstar center. 70% of their team is solved by Dwight alone. They just needed to complete the other 30%. I felt they were at 90% before that while teams like the Lakers, Celtics, Mavs, and Squrs were around 95 to 97%. With trades, they should around 97% which makes them one of my favorites. Atlanta is at 85%. Three All Stars(very good) at non key positions is 20% each. Two good players in Marvin and Crawford at 8% a piece. The rest of the team rounds up to 85%. The gap between us and other elite Eastern teams is huge. Chicago 92%, Miami: 120% (I know it's crazy, it's because of the three stars, two superstars and Lebron actually getting higher grade in the MJ and Kobe category non key positions) and Boston: 97% alone with LAL. Miami hurts my system dues to their players rank.

The Dwight Howard effect is why they can make a blockbuster deal even with bad contracts which aren't bad around Dwight.

Kevin Love wouldn't be putting up numbers in Atlanta. It would be the downfall because he's a PF couldn't defend off or on the ball. Needs to play next to a center even more than Horford or Smith. His team is also 8-25. Numbers aside, there is a great chance he will never be as good as Josh Smith or Al Horford. Melo is available and CP3 could be available. Time will tell for CP3 and he knows this NO team is going nowhere soon. It might be better the NBA to package him now than deal with the headache later and Atlanta has valuable valuable pieces like Smith, Teague who teams really like, Jamal, and Marvin. Atlanta is still the best team on the market in terms in terms of trading partners.

[Wretch]

No one player is going to take a team all the way to the finals. So yes, MJ needed Pippen...as much as he needed Rodman (I think moreso) and Kukoc. However, Pippen needed MJ alot more than MJ needed Pippen. In truth, Pippen could have been any number of better than average SF's...Drexler, Nique. They would have done it. Replace MJ though...with Dumars or Hornacek, not the same. Pippen was a very good scorer, not great (he's not even in the top 50 on the all time scorers list). BUT, he did so many other things so well (incredible at getting to the basket, 3pt shot, great court vision, etc., etc.) He was an all time great at the game of basketball, just not the guy you want with the ball in his hands at the end of the clock...in the championship series...during that crucial play. The guy you want taking that shot is Kobe, Bird, Jordan, Reggie Miller...you give the ball to those guys. But they aren't in the position they're in without players like Pippen, McHale, or Ray Allen.

Stars or no...you still have to make deals to make progress. Hell, the Lakers won it all and STILL went out and made big changes....taking a flyer on a knuckle-head like Ron Artest of all people. And while I'm not suggesting Love is the answer, I'm not going to dismiss his numbers either. Regardless, I'd be comfortable making the move for the simple fact that if it did fail...at least we're moving. I believe our team is built from a flawed philosophy and is thus...flawed. We're good, but I've seen good...for many years. If we ever hope to have the superstar that we can build around, then we better do something.

[Joker]

No one player is going to take a team all the way to the finals. So yes, MJ needed Pippen...as much as he needed Rodman (I think moreso) and Kukoc. However, Pippen needed MJ alot more than MJ needed Pippen. In truth, Pippen could have been any number of better than average SF's...Drexler, Nique. They would have done it. Replace MJ though...with Dumars or Hornacek, not the same. Pippen was a very good scorer, not great (he's not even in the top 50 on the all time scorers list). BUT, he did so many other things so well (incredible at getting to the basket, 3pt shot, great court vision, etc., etc.) He was an all time great at the game of basketball, just not the guy you want with the ball in his hands at the end of the clock...in the championship series...during that crucial play. The guy you want taking that shot is Kobe, Bird, Jordan, Reggie Miller...you give the ball to those guys. But they aren't in the position they're in without players like Pippen, McHale, or Ray Allen.

Stars or no...you still have to make deals to make progress. Hell, the Lakers won it all and STILL went out and made big changes....taking a flyer on a knuckle-head like Ron Artest of all people. And while I'm not suggesting Love is the answer, I'm not going to dismiss his numbers either. Regardless, I'd be comfortable making the move for the simple fact that if it did fail...at least we're moving. I believe our team is built from a flawed philosophy and is thus...flawed. We're good, but I've seen good...for many years. If we ever hope to have the superstar that we can build around, then we better do something.

I think they needed each other a lot. But in terms of greatness, Pippen needed MJ more than MJ needed Pippen.

No Love is not the answer and I will disregard his stats because I seen him in action and have a good idea of his potential. I seen Smoove and Horford. I don't see Love passing Smoove and I really don't see him passing Horford. This team only can go up and get a much better or they might as keep the second round and done team they have now. Once again, the Lakers can add Artest because he's a complimentary player. Gasol was huge because they didn't have another reasonable option and Gasol was an elite #2 option like Joe but a poor #1. You see how much hype Ariza got. He's not even good, just average and is a good role player on an organized team. Look how bad he is in NO. He's one of the reasons CP3 is peeved but they can't do anything because they don't have the talent to acquire talent unless they trade CP3. We are a very good team, not just good. When you have three All Stars, it's tough to play v. Every team we lost to that was very good or great sans Boston was a close game till it was defense and clutch time. Their team had superstars, and we couldn't stop them and superstars are clutch.

[99PROBL3MS]

I don't think Joe and Horf not being tier 1 stars is what is truly keeping us from being in contention. As Diesel pointed out, there are former champs like the PIstons, and 08 Celtics that won without a true tier 1 guy in his prime. There are some striking differences between us and those teams.

1. Very good PG play- We have to get more from this position at both ends of the floor. Looking at hoopdata.com, the league average for starting PGs is:

14.7ppg 3.4rpg 6.3apg 1.3spg 44.6% FG 37% 3PT 83% FT We are getting 10.4ppg 2.2rpg 3.9apg 0.5apg 46.8% FG 48.6% 3PT 58.8% FT

Aside from his 3pt shot, we are getting much below average production at the PG position. The average starting PG has attempted 107 FTs. Our starter

has attempted 35 all season. Jason Kidd is the only one with fewer FT attempts. PER can also be deceiving but it isn't a coincidence that Derek Fisher

is the only fulltime starting PG in the league with a lower PER. Couple that with his total inability to guard the position and it screams upgrade. I'm not

trying to pile on Bibby because it isn't his fault he is being asked to do what he is no longer capable of doing. At the end of the day, it is what it is. I think

getting average PG play would go along way in helping this team. We need someone who can create for themselves, their teammates defend the position

and effectively serve as a floor general. That is the number one issue in my opinion.

2. Team defense- This teams has enough length and athleticism to play very good team defense. It suffers sometimes because of our inability to defend

opposing PGs as well as the periodic lacks of effort and focus. I think this part takes a huge leap if we address #1. We struggle in the paint with an undersized

Center, but Horf holds his own against most Center's not named Dwight Howard and Shaquille O'Neal. In terms of teams who allow a lower FG% than they

shoot, ATL is 11th in the NBA. This number could and should be better. Practice can be beneficial here.

3. Finding a Center- True high caliber NBA Centers don't come cheap and the don't change hands often. In fact, most of them are drafted and remain with that

team. If you are lucky you can catch one nearing the end of his prime. There are some serviceable guys that could really help this team. Horford has hinted that

he wants to play PF and not C. He is right about needing help there but I think the PG position is a much bigger need. We are better off starting him at C than we

are Bibby at PG. If a choice were to be made, I would say PG first and foremost.

“We need to get another big guy, another center, that’s able to help myself and Josh out,” he said. “We need to have someone to come in and have an impact. I think that is the position we need if we want to be any type of contender in the East.”

I hope they don't make a trade just to trade, but there is no money to go out and make upgrades in the offseason. Someone has to be moved.

[Wretch]

I don't think Joe and Horf not being tier 1 stars is what is truly keeping us from being in contention. As Diesel pointed out, there are former champs like the PIstons, and 08 Celtics that won without a true tier 1 guy in his prime. There are some striking differences between us and those teams.

1. Very good PG play- We have to get more from this position at both ends of the floor. Looking at hoopdata.com, the league average for starting PGs is:

14.7ppg 3.4rpg 6.3apg 1.3spg 44.6% FG 37% 3PT 83% FT We are getting 10.4ppg 2.2rpg 3.9apg 0.5apg 46.8% FG 48.6% 3PT 58.8% FT

Aside from his 3pt shot, we are getting much below average production at the PG position. The average starting PG has attempted 107 FTs. Our starter

has attempted 35 all season. Jason Kidd is the only one with fewer FT attempts. PER can also be deceiving but it isn't a coincidence that Derek Fisher

is the only fulltime starting PG in the league with a lower PER. Couple that with his total inability to guard the position and it screams upgrade. I'm not

trying to pile on Bibby because it isn't his fault he is being asked to do what he is no longer capable of doing. At the end of the day, it is what it is. I think

getting average PG play would go along way in helping this team. We need someone who can create for themselves, their teammates defend the position

and effectively serve as a floor general. That is the number one issue in my opinion.

2. Team defense- This teams has enough length and athleticism to play very good team defense. It suffers sometimes because of our inability to defend

opposing PGs as well as the periodic lacks of effort and focus. I think this part takes a huge leap if we address #1. We struggle in the paint with an undersized

Center, but Horf holds his own against most Center's not named Dwight Howard and Shaquille O'Neal. In terms of teams who allow a lower FG% than they

shoot, ATL is 11th in the NBA. This number could and should be better. Practice can be beneficial here.

3. Finding a Center- True high caliber NBA Centers don't come cheap and the don't change hands often. In fact, most of them are drafted and remain with that

team. If you are lucky you can catch one nearing the end of his prime. There are some serviceable guys that could really help this team. Horford has hinted that

he wants to play PF and not C. He is right about needing help there but I think the PG position is a much bigger need. We are better off starting him at C than we

are Bibby at PG. If a choice were to be made, I would say PG first and foremost.

"We need to get another big guy, another center, that's able to help myself and Josh out," he said. "We need to have someone to come in and have an impact. I think that is the position we need if we want to be any type of contender in the East."

I hope they don't make a trade just to trade, but there is no money to go out and make upgrades in the offseason. Someone has to be moved.

I've been drilling that point for years. Our best shot at winning is to try and emulate the Pistons. But we don't have a PG like Billups or the type of smothering defense those Pistons had. Moreover, winning without a true #1 option would work in Indiana, Detroit, or Boston. It would never work in Atlanta...but that's another story.

Trading just for the sake of change?

What's worse...that's probably a decent poll.

[Chickenstanley]

Pippen was a great defensive player. Jordan was a great defensive player. Both Rodman and Horace Grant were great defensive players.

Not just good. But great.

Jordan has since commented something like.." Our offense put people in the stands, but it was our defense that the Championships".

Billups, Prince, Wallace and Wallace ---were all great defensive players. The team they totally destroyed (the Shaq/Kobe Lakers) was the most dominant since the Jordan era. There was no asterisk ala the Houston titles while Jordan was retired. And yes, they had probably the only coach that could have used that team to explode that Laker dynasty.

CS

[Randy]

Love is the answer. We need to start loving this team the way ASG does. What was that old song "I love you just the way your are....."?