ASG and Sund need to be careful

[HawkItus]

This is starting to feel a lot like the summer we went from a top four team in the East to door mats. We traded Smitty for Isiah "cheech" Rider and Jimmy Jackson. From there we seemed to never get our footing again. My point, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

August 2,

1999 Hawks trade G Steve Smith and G Ed Gray

to Portland for G Isaiah "J.R." Rider

and G Jim Jackson

J.R. Rider J.R. Rider vowed to be a team player in Atlanta. Otto Greule Jr./Allsport

CNNSI.com's Loughery: It's hard to believe why anybody would bring Rider into their locker room, although talent-wise you could see the temptation. But in my opinion, there's no way you bring J.R. Rider onto your ballclub. I think Hawks management knows they made a mistake. It's a situation where you see the talent, and Rider has dramatic and tremendous talent, and you feel as though you can be the team that gets the talent out, that he'll settle in ... be the team that gets him to change his stripes. And look at Rider now: He's with the Lakers and seems to be fitting in. Of course, winning helps.

CNNSI.com: Steve Smith, whom Loughery coached in Miami, is a good guy and a steady performer. In his four seasons with the Hawks, he averaged 18.1, 20.1, 20.1 and 18.7 points. And he never missed a practice. Rider, on the other hand, came to Atlanta from Minnesota via Portland with more baggage than Thurston and Lovey Howell on a three-hour tour.

And he brought it with him, alternately being Joe Team and Joe Cool. He missed flights, practices, was suspended and finally waived after 60 illustrious games. He signed as a free agent with the Lakers in the offseason. Jim Jackson produced for the Hawks until getting dealt to Cleveland this season in a deal for point guard Brevin Knight.

[Joker]

The only thing that can equal that is trading Smith for anything you guys suggest or Crawford for Brooks and Battier or trading Zaza and Bibby for Calderon. We get a lot weaker at center and Caldy is expensive and would never be able to live it down. Or worst, trading Jamal to Sac for Sammy D. Ugh. Not to mention a trade for Mo Williams. Yeah, it can be bad.

[Admin]

The difference is that was an old team on their last legs and we're still fairly young throughout the core of the team. It would be wise to be cautious with making any trades and not take a big risk though!

[GameTime]

The only thing that can equal that is trading Smith for anything you guys suggest or Crawford for Brooks and Battier or trading Zaza and Bibby for Calderon. We get a lot weaker at center and Caldy is expensive and would never be able to live it down. Or worst, trading Jamal to Sac for Sammy D. Ugh. Not to mention a trade for Mo Williams. Yeah, it can be bad.

Disagree with that. A lot weaker at center? Zaza is reallly bad. If we get a Joey Dorsey or Reggie Evans in the deal it is actually an upgrade IMO. You are really overrating Caldy's contract. It is a shocking one year longer than Bibby's for a much more productive player. Calderon is top 3 in the NBA in assists (Per 48) and is just as good as a shooter as Bibby. This would be a good trade for us.

[Joker]

Disagree with that. A lot weaker at center? Zaza is reallly bad. If we get a Joey Dorsey or Reggie Evans in the deal it is actually an upgrade IMO. You are really overrating Caldy's contract. It is a shocking one year longer than Bibby's for a much more productive player. Calderon is top 3 in the NBA in assists (Per 48) and is just as good as a shooter as Bibby. This would be a good trade for us.

Zaza may be bad but he can play the position and play for 15 mpg. That's not that bad if you look at other backup centers and he is more productive than Brandon Haywood who is getting more mpg. Caldy contract is really really bad. He's a marginal PG. He has limited potential but he getting paid near Rondo. That's a really bad contract. You got guys here who think Marvin is a bad contract. His contract is great per production. Caldy is bad per production. No one uses Per 48 anymore, it's Per 36 and Per 36, Zaza is a beast. That's a bad deal. We need Zaza and Dorsey wouldn't get PT on our team. Evans wouldn't get traded for Zaza and Bibby, I would do the deal to get Evans but he's more valuable than everyone in this deal.

Edited February 10, 2011 by nbasuperstar40

[99PROBL3MS]

Zaza may match Haywood in terms of numbers but he isn't half the player Haywood is. I love how hard Zaza plays for us but he isn't even Top 15 in terms of ability for backup Cs. Zaza and Bibby for Jose and Joey is a steal for us in my opinion..

Edited February 10, 2011 by 99PROBL3MS

[Admin]

Zaza may be bad but he can play the position and play for 15 mpg. That's not that bad if you look at other backup centers and he is more productive than Brandon Haywood who is getting more mpg. Caldy contract is really really bad. He's a marginal PG. He has limited potential but he getting paid near Rondo. That's a really bad contract. You got guys here who think Marvin is a bad contract. His contract is great per production. Caldy is bad per production. No one uses Per 48 anymore, it's Per 36 and Per 36, Zaza is a beast. That's a bad deal. We need Zaza and Dorsey wouldn't get PT on our team. Evans wouldn't get traded for Zaza and Bibby, I would do the deal to get Evans but he's more valuable than everyone in this deal.

Do what?? Calderon has a very solid deal for a quality starting PG like he is. He gets paid roughly 10 million each of the next 2 years and just because that is the same as what Rondo is making doesn't make him any less worthy of his contract, it only means that Rondo is underpaid and in fact they were talking about that the other day on NBA TV how the Celtics really did a great job signing him to the contract he's on now.

Now that we're done talking about how Calderon's contract is NOT bad let's debunk your statement about his production being bad.

Calderon, in only 30 MPG is averaging more assists per game (note not per 36 or per 38) than Westbrook, Kidd, Rose, Harris, Miller, Davis, Parker, etc. and he's doing it in fewer minutes than all of them except for Davis. Calderon is also shooting 44%, 40% from 3, 82% FT's and has a nearly 4 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. In fact Calderon is among the best PG's in the game across the board offensively no matter what stat you look at and the only reason he'd even be remotely available via trade is because he's a bad defensive player, although we're use to that with Bibby so we could get away with that considering the huge improvement we'd make with him offensively.

[Joker]

Do what?? Calderon has a very solid deal for a quality starting PG like he is. He gets paid roughly 10 million each of the next 2 years and just because that is the same as what Rondo is making doesn't make him any less worthy of his contract, it only means that Rondo is underpaid and in fact they were talking about that the other day on NBA TV how the Celtics really did a great job signing him to the contract he's on now.

Now that we're done talking about how Calderon's contract is NOT bad let's debunk your statement about his production being bad.

Calderon, in only 30 MPG is averaging more assists per game (note not per 36 or per 38) than Westbrook, Kidd, Rose, Harris, Miller, Davis, Parker, etc. and he's doing it in fewer minutes than all of them except for Davis. Calderon is also shooting 44%, 40% from 3, 82% FT's and has a nearly 4 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. In fact Calderon is among the best PG's in the game across the board offensively no matter what stat you look at and the only reason he'd even be remotely available via trade is because he's a bad defensive player, although we're use to that with Bibby so we could get away with that considering the huge improvement we'd make with him offensively.

Caldy a playmaker. He can pass extremely well. The best passer who is not a superstar or elite at PG. He can shoot when open. Now the issues:

Can defend. He's Bibby bad at it.

average BBIQ

can't dribble penetrate.

Inconsistent like Josh

Doesn't make an impact If you are making 10 mil+, you better have a positive impact, his is not there. That's a tall tale sign that you are a quality backup at best who is starting. He's basically Jarrett Jack impact wise. Jack is much cheaper, I rather Jack but so would a lot of other teams. Think, if anyone is willing to take totally negative values in Bibby and Zaza, that must mean the value coming in is much worst. This one is really bad. Trading for Jerome James bad. Stats don't help you on this one, he's just a quality backup paid like a quality starter. You can get the same impact from Will Bynum for 8 million dollars less a season. I'll pass, completely pass.

Rip Hamilton for Bibby/Zaza/filler is completely worth it. He's a quality player who is a disgruntle player who can play and has a positive impact.

[GameTime]

Rip Hamilton for Bibby/Zaza/filler is completely worth it. He's a quality player who is a disgruntle player who can play and has a positive impact.

That deal is completely worthless. RIP is on a WAY worse contract than Calderon. Adding another SG is NOT what we need.

You are really underrating Calderon. He is a fantastic passer.

Per 36 Zaza is averaging 9-9. Per 36 Dorsey 9-13.

[Joker]

That deal is completely worthless. RIP is on a WAY worse contract than Calderon. Adding another SG is NOT what we need.

You are really underrating Calderon. He is a fantastic passer.

Per 36 Zaza is averaging 9-9. Per 36 Dorsey 9-13.

I never underrated him as a passer. I think he is like you said, a fantastic passer. But without question, adding Calderon put us in a bigger bind then we are already in. Rip contract sucks too but one can be a positive impact starter and a great bench player and the other is a marginal starter and a very good bench player. I look at Rip the same way I looked at Jamal Crawford in GS, talented, disgruntled, bad contract and is hard to move. I look at Calderon as someone with an unmovable contract because he's not close to worth it. Between his deal and a couple of other deals Toronto has given out, they are the most poorly ran organization in the NBA. Reminds me of Babcock's Hawks. Alan Henderson, Chris Crawford, and Koncak.

Dorsey won't play mins for Drew. He just wouldn't, Evans would but like I said, Evans is the best value of all the names mentioned.

Edited February 10, 2011 by nbasuperstar40

[Supporter]

Zaza may be bad but he can play the position and play for 15 mpg. That's not that bad if you look at other backup centers and he is more productive than Brandon Haywood who is getting more mpg. Caldy contract is really really bad. He's a marginal PG. He has limited potential but he getting paid near Rondo. That's a really bad contract. You got guys here who think Marvin is a bad contract. His contract is great per production. Caldy is bad per production. No one uses Per 48 anymore, it's Per 36 and Per 36, Zaza is a beast. That's a bad deal. We need Zaza and Dorsey wouldn't get PT on our team. Evans wouldn't get traded for Zaza and Bibby, I would do the deal to get Evans but he's more valuable than everyone in this deal.

Dude I can't understand half the stuff you're trying to say, there's too much info in that small paragraph.

[JackB1]

Joe and Al are the only untouchables on this team. Everyone else could be on the block IMO.