Dumb Ole Smoove

[Crank]

Ive said this before when Josh decides he is gonna be our Dennis Rodman he is a all star player and potential all Nba caliber player its when he decides hes Scottie Pippen that hurts the team .

I think at this point the jealousy he has for Al and JJ are simply too great for him to overcome and commit to being Rodman on this team.

[itsslomotionbaby]

In a close game against an E.C. rival away:

41.5 minutes 13 for 21 field goals 6 for 7 free throws 33 total points 12 rebounds a steal a block no turnovers.

If only this youngster had a BBIQ imagine what he could do??

Early in the game he hits a perimeter shot...later he shoots an airball...half the chatroom groans and complains that he is beyond help and will never accept his role...he is a selfish perimeter shooter...an outlaw...beyond help or coaching.

I give up. I know the guy doesn't do this every game and I know many want him to play the way THEY want him to...but the fact of the matter is, he's the best player on this team right now (night in-night-out).

No question about it.

i have to give an A-MAN to that brother i have been trying to tell people smoove has more of an impact on the team then joe when he plays. i was on the trade e josh band wagon for a compitant center. but the way its looking now i would rather trade joe before i trade josh.

[AHawks89]

The truth of the haters are shown in this thread. My friend who is a huge Bobcats fan was reading through this, and even started laughing. He was saying how pathetic this is. I couldn't agree anymore. What's funny is he watches more Hawks game than Charlotte because of him living here, he don't get to watch most of the games. He knows more about the Hawks REAL problems than this stupid sh*t. This is for all the haters in denial:

[thecampster]

Perhaps it's because you are being picky and choosy with your stat tellin' all while making lil to no mention of Josh damn near having a 1 to 1 assist to turnover ratio and shooting 22% on threes on the same number of attempts over that arbitrary span of months you decided upon.......You know, the two most common things in addition to the pouting that people are actually complaining about with him. You are focusing on things like his scoring average which was obviously boosted during his best month of the season in February where he hung an average of 28 points on the Wizards, Bobcats, Suns, Warriors and Pistons. You are of course glassing over things like FGA's being lil to much higher than everyone else while his are assists actually much lower while his turnovers..erm, naw, they haven't dropped nearly as dramatically as the assists if at all like you claimed. Call out the haters all you want but don't pretend as if you are not purposefully serving your own agenda here by only calling attention to areas where Smoove may look favorable. You are trying to paint a picture as if Smoove has put up some Herculean performance over the past two months while Horf and Joe have disappeared into the ether all while offering practically zero context with the rest of their seasons.

Arbitrary stats? Arbitrary range of games?

Last 2 months is not arbitrary. points, rebounds assists, steals, blocks, turnovers are not arbitrary. These are the main stats in basketball. they are the baseline of all things.

[thecampster]

Perhaps it's because you are being picky and choosy with your stat tellin' all while making lil to no mention of Josh damn near having a 1 to 1 assist to turnover ratio and shooting 22% on threes on the same number of attempts over that arbitrary span of months you decided upon.......You know, the two most common things in addition to the pouting that people are actually complaining about with him. You are focusing on things like his scoring average which was obviously boosted during his best month of the season in February where he hung an average of 28 points on the Wizards, Bobcats, Suns, Warriors and Pistons. You are of course glassing over things like FGA's being lil to much higher than everyone else while his are assists actually much lower while his turnovers..erm, naw, they haven't dropped nearly as dramatically as the assists if at all like you claimed. Call out the haters all you want but don't pretend as if you are not purposefully serving your own agenda here by only calling attention to areas where Smoove may look favorable. You are trying to paint a picture as if Smoove has put up some Herculean performance over the past two months while Horf and Joe have disappeared into the ether all while offering practically zero context with the rest of their seasons.

You know what Craw...maybe I jumped the gun on you there. Maybe I'm jumping the gun on Jack. I'll be fair.

Can you guys justify the stats, purely the stats drop off of Al/Joe in the last 24 games...when the team has gone 10-14. That's what these stats are. They are the last 24 games as a team. with a 4 game under .500 record. Look at Joe, Josh, Al. In those 24 games, can you justify Joe's performance. Al's drop off (might be the back from the fall...don't know...no one has said). By the way..3 of those wins came at the front...they are 7-14 in the last 21.

Edited March 25, 2011 by thecampster

[AUhawksfan]

"Poise"..are you F*&^%-in insane? This isn't girls balance beam for Chr874st sakes...this is the NBA. I watch every game and we don't need Smoove to be a "poised" SF who can tip toe and stick a landing..you people who want a SF who can do it all - every time - get on my nerves. Smoove does it much more often than not (grinding my teeth). :comando:

No, actually I consider myself pretty level-headed.

By "poise" I'm not referring to this strange definition you've given. I like his passion but too many times it hurts the team. My definition of poise in this instance: he needs to show control of himself and his emotions when in the game.

If Al or Joe were complaining on calls instead of getting back on D, I'd call them out too and I know I have done that for Joe before. I agree Joe and Al have been playing terribly, and I don't expect him to do everything. I just want him to play smarter. There are so many very simple things Josh could to improve his game drastically but he is too hard headed to fix it.

I wish you could have shown a little more "poise" in your response.

[MaceCase]

You know what Craw...maybe I jumped the gun on you there. Maybe I'm jumping the gun on Jack. I'll be fair.

Can you guys justify the stats, purely the stats drop off of Al/Joe in the last 24 games...when the team has gone 10-14. That's what these stats are. They are the last 24 games as a team. with a 4 game under .500 record. Look at Joe, Josh, Al. In those 24 games, can you justify Joe's performance. Al's drop off (might be the back from the fall...don't know...no one has said). By the way..3 of those wins came at the front...they are 7-14 in the last 21.

All I know is post All Star break which is the unofficial midway point of the season and when the competition got harder for this team and the losing really started the stats for all three of them dropped. This is fact, if you want to include the entire month of February where Smoove was abusing far inferior teams for nearly 30 points in 45% of the games yet not topping 16 points in the rest of the games against superior opponents then you might as well just go back barely a month and include Joe's monster January as well. Don't include me with Jack, it's clear he has an agenda just as much as Diesel, Crank, Benhill or MVP do. I'm part of the contigent that are legitimately saying that Smoove's jumpshooting, wild passes and overall demeanor affect the team and you come flying in trying to distract from those valid points by throwing out his points per game as if it just kills that argument. I found it beyond funny that over that span of games you decided upon that Josh is shooting the worst 3point % amongst everyone yet his attempts aren't down and his assists are not only down but he is dishing out 2.7 assists to 2.3 turnovers. Do you think the "haters" still have no merit to their arguments? Can't be because they'd be no reason for you to be trying to pull a Kansas City Shuffle then.

Unless you are running an agenda yourself.....

[thecampster]

All I know is post All Star break which is the unofficial midway point of the season and when the competition got harder for this team and the losing really started the stats for all three of them dropped. This is fact, if you want to include the entire month of February where Smoove was abusing far inferior teams for nearly 30 points in 45% of the games yet not topping 16 points in the rest of the games against superior opponents then you might as well just go back barely a month and include Joe's monster January as well. Don't include me with Jack, it's clear he has an agenda just as much as Diesel, Crank, Benhill or MVP do. I'm part of the contigent that are legitimately saying that Smoove's jumpshooting, wild passes and overall demeanor affect the team and you come flying in trying to distract from those valid points by throwing out his points per game as if it just kills that argument. I found it beyond funny that over that span of games you decided upon that Josh is shooting the worst 3point % amongst everyone yet his attempts aren't down and his assists are not only down but he is dishing out 2.7 assists to 2.3 turnovers. Do you think the "haters" still have no merit to their arguments? Can't be because they'd be no reason for you to be trying to pull a Kansas City Shuffle then.

Unless you are running an agenda yourself.....

My agenda is simple. I value Josh's game and get annoyed with the excessive hate.

Again the numbers aren't random. They are pulled from Split stats on Yahoo for each player.

Edited March 25, 2011 by thecampster

[MaceCase]

My agenda is simple. I value Josh's game and get annoyed with the excessive hate.

Again the numbers aren't random. They are pulled from Split stats on Yahoo for each player.

I understand you getting mad at blind vitriol but also understand that I and others get just as mad when we are labeled "haters" for bringing up legitimate gripes. Again, you picked your span of games to back up your position but then you chose to omit the exact stats that are the basis of many people's dissatisfaction with Smoove. I hope you can understand why that was a bit of a head scratcher to me.

[thecampster]

I understand you getting mad at blind vitriol but also understand that I and others get just as mad when we are labeled "haters" for bringing up legitimate gripes. Again, you picked your span of games to back up your position but then you chose to omit the exact stats that are the basis of many people's dissatisfaction with Smoove. I hope you can understand why that was a bit of a head scratcher to me.

Again, I did not pick those games to back up my position. I picked those games because that's when the real losing began and it was easy to gather based on Yahoo's split stats.

You are trying to compare the t/o to Assist ratio of a power foward to a guard. Any player asked to handle the ball as much as he is has elevated turnovers. You're getting upset about 2.3 t/os a game. That's an average of 2.5 points a game. or if you go 1 to 1 it's 4.6 points a game. You can't in all honesty be that upset about those stats enough to overlook the drop in Joe and Al's performance. Joe being down 9 points a game over his high point with the hawks. Al and Joe both do not get to the line near enough. Half of Joe's very mediocre FT numbers are gimme's at the end of the game. 2-4 points of Joe's average are those same gimme's.

Now in my opinion, the drop in Al's numbers are most probably him still being affected by the super hard foul and coming back too soon. Other than a few games before the all star announcements, Joe has been less than stellar all year. My only agenda is in not losing the most impactful player on our team to the mob mentality of fans.

[MaceCase]

Any player asked to handle the ball as much as he is..

I'll stop you right there because you are aweigh again on your misdirection ship. Nobody asks Smoove to handle the ball which would bring us to yet another legitimate gripe people have, him fancying himself a ball handler when he should be, as you say, a PF. Now you are also focusing on the turnovers claiming that I'm the one bent out of shape about that but why is there really no attention to his once vaunted and impactful passing disappearing? My emphasis is not on his turnovers even though you were the first to use them in his favor it's on his assisting dropping far more dramatically than his turnovers. May not be of any consequence to you based on your distractions but a guy that chooses to handle the ball frequently on his OWN who at least had the benefit of being able to make passes is now at a 50/50 chance that he might make a play for his teammates to score or give a lucky fan in the third row a concussion.

Lemme just play Smoove hater for a second and misdirect criticism *ahem*" Smoove's continuing to take more shots, especially 3s that he is no longer hitting, to get himself more points while passing less to his teammates is what has affected their drop in FGAs and therefore points. This selfish behavior is more to blame for the team losing than anything else anyone else is doing."

Absurd? sure and at best only partially the reason but don't matter because I achieved what I wanted in the first place, I got you looking left while Al and Joe are operating on the right.

[thecampster]

I'll stop you right there because you are aweigh again on your misdirection ship. Nobody asks Smoove to handle the ball which would bring us to yet another legitimate gripe people have, him fancying himself a ball handler when he should be, as you say, a PF. Now you are also focusing on the turnovers claiming that I'm the one bent out of shape about that but why is there really no attention to his once vaunted and impactful passing disappearing? My emphasis is not on his turnovers even though you were the first to use them in his favor it's on his assisting dropping far more dramatically than his turnovers. May not be of any consequence to you based on your distractions but a guy that chooses to handle the ball frequently on his OWN who at least had the benefit of being able to make passes is now at a 50/50 chance that he might make a play for his teammates to score or give a lucky fan in the third row a concussion.

Lemme just play Smoove hater for a second and misdirect criticism *ahem*" Smoove's continuing to take more shots, especially 3s that he is no longer hitting, to get himself more points while passing less to his teammates is what has affected their drop in FGAs and therefore points. This selfish behavior is more to blame for the team losing than anything else anyone else is doing."

Absurd? sure and at best only partially the reason but don't matter because I achieved what I wanted in the first place, I got you looking left while Al and Joe are operating on the right.

Now let me play devil's advocate. If Joe hits one more shot a game on a pass from Josh, Josh's assist numbers aren't down. That is most definately a relative stat to the play of others on the team.

[yungsta]

guys we cant beat elite teams with an al and josh frontcourt.

josh may be the reason al isnt breaking out who knows.but all i know is we are too small. 1 of them needs to go. if i had to pick 1 of them to be traded it would be josh.

Josh maybe more talented than Al but there is 1 thing al has which is maturity and a better attitude. I would take heart over talent anyday.

i know no1 wants to trade him but if we want to rebuild to this and become better he HAS TO GO

Edited March 26, 2011 by yungsta

[MaceCase]

Well advocate, Joe and Al's FG% aren't far off if at all from their seasons average during that specific span but their attempts are down. Is that more a symptom of them missing shots or not receiving shot opportunities in the first place?

See, it's fun to speculate and loosely associate facts with opinion, this goes to my original gripe with you picking and choosing what you want to use to boost one player and while not applying the same thing to another.

I'll have to admit that I'm on a phone and can't really compile quotes but I think I can remember quite clearly what your original post was.

These were the things you were saying

You mentioned Smoove had an uptick in scoring while others had dropped but there was no mention of field goal attempts.

You brought up Smoove's FG% also in order to represnt it raised from his season average slightly but you gave no example or context for the other players' FG% to see whether they changed either during that span.

You called out Joe for turning the ball over more while praising Smoove for lowering his turnovers despite the fact he was still turning the ball over more than Al and Joe while assisting less than they were. There was zero mention of that for you. I pointed it out to you and then you went on to say I was obsessing over turnovers and excused it away regardless because Smoove is a PF and is therefore presumably weaker with his handles (doesn't explain why Al could keep both his assists and TOs the same though) and it's barely the difference of 4 points for or against the team. This was head scratching because why then were you claiming Joe's TOs to be too high in your OP when by your logic him being a guard who handles the ball much more shouldn't therefore be given a lower threshold for TOs but a higher one?

Another headscratcher was that you so eloquently broke down in a later post how the TO is such a minuscule difference of points to argue about while you are lambasting Joe for getting less of an opportunity to make just a singular more point at the FT line? It's not as if Joe saw a precipitous decline in FTAs to be thinking that's what made such a difference for the team right?

Then there's your sample size or better yet your sample selection that I had trouble to begin with. You say you are using February and March or a 24 game sample to draw your stats from and that Yahoo provides a 24game split that you can easily view. I checked yahoo, there isn't a 24 game split to view, the use of February is also covenient to you because it was Smoove's best scoring month of the season based on him hanging 28 points on the mostly inferior opponents we saw at the beginning of the month but the losing actually started 20 games back for the TEAM (because both our forwards missed a game or two during that stretch which would affect their samples) starting with the New Orleans debacle and it is more than well documented that the toughest part of our schedule started after the ASG which is 16 games back I believe. This makes it very easy for me because Yahoo and ESPN have a very handy pre and post all star split to look at.

Looking at that you can easily see the most glaring difference for the team from when the schedule was easy pre all star and hard post.

For Joe it's points being down around a basket or two from his season average (you chose to compare it to his season high, more dramatic that way I guess) but his FG% is the same it's just his shot attempts, FTattempts and more telling, his FT% being down.

For Al it's his rebounds being down nearly two boards. His points aren't an issue because it's clear as day there's an amazing correlation between taking one less shot and making 2 less points. Everything else is the same.

For Josh the glaring differences are the assists going down but turnovers stay steady, playing less minutes but putting up the same number of shot attempts as he had in more minutes, and of course, the one thing I've seen no attempt at explaining: his 3point percentage being at 22%. Far worse than anyone's during any point of the season yet his attempts are the same.

These are issues that I readily noticed that turned what looked like a factual post that seemed to want to correct unfounded bias into an agenda driven piece that is attempting to brow beat and distract any dissenter that doesn't have the 5 minutes to look up the stats themselves.

This thread was an opportunistic one if there ever was one. It started right off the heels of a singular strong performance and many tried to hang on to it as if it is the norm while not making any attempt to address any of the dissenters points over his shooting (22% on 3s over your arbitrary, purely positive stretch) his wildness trying to play out of position (2.7 assists to 2.3 turn overs over his all world stretch) or his mercurial attitude (I guess we'll just have to take people's opinions on this one, there's no statistical evidence to support it ;-)

Just my thoughts, the whole team is struggling but some are struggling in areas they can actually affect and change. No need to throw smokebombs or draw attention to others in a thread about a particular one just because someone pointed it out.

/longest anything I've ever written on phone.

[Guest]

I gave you a +1 just for the length of that one.