Would you consider Joe Johnson an underachiever?

[99PROBL3MS]

I agree and disagree. Joe still gets over 16 shots a game from the field in uor offense, that's even with those shots not falling as often as last year. Turn 3 of those shots into drives to the hole where he gets to the line. That's potentialy 6 more ft attempts per game where he avgs 78%,thats 4.68 more points a game he could get raising his avg to 23+ points a night, much better than what he does now

I won't debate that he could average more points if he got to the line more because that is an obvious truth. As down as his scoring is this season, there is still only 11 players who average more ppg on less shots. That is with him not getting to the line as he should. My point about his role in the offense is that it has certainly decreased over the past few weeks. It is no where near what it once was. As I posted in a previous thread, while he has averaged 16 fga/pg, he has only taken more 16+ 7 times in the last 25 games. We are 5-2 in those games. On the season, we are 21-10 when he gets at least 16 shots and 14-17 when he doesn't. I think that sample size is big enough to speak for itself.

He has only averaged 12.6 shots in the month of March at 47.7%. We are 4-6 over that span. Over that 25 game span I referred to, he is averaging 13.25 fga/pg, 5.6 of which were in the paint. That is far below that 16.3 fga/gm. In January he averaged 18.7 fga/pg 8.8 of which were in the paint. In my opinion, some of that is his fault for not being more selfish and demanding with the basketball. Some of that is also due in part to how we currently run our offense. Over that same span, Smoove is averaging 14.5 fga/pg. I don't have a problem with that because that is what he has averaged all year. I'm not saying we should go Iso-Joe at all. Nique says virtually before every game that the Hawks must make a concerted effort to get Joe going offensively. That is one of his keys to victory 99% of the time. I just think that we haven't done that as much the past two months and it is effecting us in the win/loss column. The only player on the team that is down in shot attempts is Joe. It is as if we have 3 first options on this team and as he said, "I just don't think we understand who should get the ball."

[benhillboy]

Tough question. For his size, gross underachiever. I always give credit for logging all those minutes to bloat his averages. Much better passer than he'll ever get credit for, that is when he properly decides when to pass. Up until this year, a great defender, again due to his size and invaluable ability to guard 2's and 3's well. People always like to annoint a "Kobe Stopper," but no one guarded him better since Joe's been here, even though its a small sample. I think his physique is one of the top ten in the league and the biggest reason for his "success" at this level. At 6'7, 240, you don't even need athletic ability, which he certainly doesn't have. Most defenders can't reach around you or knock you off balance on the floor. Conversely, he has the wingspan to suffocate most 2's and you never see any guard try to post him. He uses it as much to his advantage as one can hope for on terrain. It's just the total inability to run and be an aerial player that has dissappointed me over the years. If he was even an average dribble penetrator, leaper at the rim, and contact absorber, he would be the star that Carmelo (inch taller, 10 pounds

lighter) or Pierce (Same height, 5 pounds less) are. No one (me mostly) would ever gripe about him being quiet and non-engaged because plays at the rim talk for you. It seems like he has never worked at these parts of his game, that he should have, nor cared to. Some on this board bring up examples of other guys with a certain physique who are not bullies down low or near the paint. Most are valid points. But again, 6'7, 240, can dribble, can shoot? There is absolutely, positively no excuse for Joe's passiveness. If he had the drive of some of the more mentally tougher players in this league, his averages in Atlanta would be 25-6-6-1-1 and always near 50% shooting instead of 20-5-5 and average shooting. How many more games would we have won? A lot more. Attendance would've been respectable. He would be worth 100 million. Over or under achiever? Only he knows that. To be traded during your rookie year and go on to be a 5-Time All-Star is impressive. The money he will ultimately make is a great American legend considering he isnt recognizable and was employed by a poor franchise in his proffession. He has the body and fundamental skills to make himself a borderline H.O.F. type a la Pierce. But his seemingly lackluster approach to improving, adding dimensions to his game, and playing with fire only places him in the company of the Richmonds, Houstons, Redds, Steve Smiths, Grangers, Aguires, Blackmons, etc. Can score 20 all day and be the "best" player on a non-contending team, make a truckload of dough, have his number retired for that average franchise, and never appear on a Hall of Fame ballot or remotely approach a title unless they are a 3rd option that can run the second team offense like

my favorite non-star of All-Time Ron Harper, who won titles with two teams. But it takes a dedicated teammate to do that, and thats not the impression I get from Joe.

Edited March 28, 2011 by benhillboy

[Buzzard]

6'7, 245 pounds with a jump shot? If he wasn't afraid of little guys like TJ Ford its possible he could have been a great. Instead the best he could do is get us swept in the 2nd round twice. Thanks for the memories Joe..

He is now overpaid but that was a business decision. He is exactly what I expected and hoped for when we traded for him, 20, 5, and 5 SG. Not a Jordan or Kobe but a hell of a basketball player at the highest level.

I cannot blame JJ for being overpaid anymore than I can blame him for being surrounded by borderline starters since he has been here. Look at Amare, super great player and no rings due to his surrounding players and he had a all world PG to play with. Now look at JJ, solid player with no rings and he has never had a Nash or now Melo for that matter along side him since being here. Howard has not been able to do it by himself either.

Some think JJ should be able to take us to the promised land all by himself. I think those that do should check themselves and take a look at players like Amare, Howard, Nash, Deron, Paul, Durant, Dirk, and Melo et al first to get a reality check on the fact that teams win championships not individual players.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Buzzard

[Diesel]

Joe is a SF playing SG because he is afraid to drive the ball to the rim. Despite all his physical advantages over SGs he is unable to use them since he would rather hoist a jumper instead of post up or slash the lane. The fact he tries 4.3 3pt attempt but only 3.4 ft attempts lets you know all you need to about him. Stars get to the stripe for easy points, to slow momentum, and to get the defense to relax their agressiveness. Joe does not understand this, that's y I have issues with him

I disagree. Joe has a floater that is tremendous. Joe is a Sg for 2 reasons.

1. He has been tethered with Marvin.

2. Before coming here, he logged a 48% 3pt% on 370 attempts. Only two others have done better Steve Kerr and Tim Leglar.. niether guy shot more than 245 attempts. Since being here, Joe has been consistent about 37% from three, but at the same time, we haven't had the post presence he had in Phoenix. Also, his attempts has been as high as 444 and he has been our primary ball handler.

I think if you want Joe to play differently, you have to give him a different cast/coach. That starts with a PG who can control the offense. I hope Hinrich/Teague is that guy.

[Diesel]

What I don't understand about Joe is ever since the year he was averaging 25 a game he has really regressed in his ability to get in the low post and use his enormous size/weight advantage or in attacking the rim with his size/weight and forcing the smaller guards to foul him and send him to the line. I don't understand it. You'll see him at least two to three times a game have some nice low post moves or a quick drive to the rim and he either scores, gets fouled or has a high percentage shot that barely misses.

And what happens after that? He just goes back to taking jumpers. I don't get it AT ALL. I remember when Mark Jackson and Charles would defend their slow low post moves by stating that while it wasn't pretty it worked. I don't see why Joe doesn't get that lesson through his head.

Every Since Joe has been a 25 a game player, he has been double teamed most of the time. You can't go into the post with the monsters there (to post up a SG) without a great slasher or a big who can maintain the other side of the post. Our team is not built that way. It's better for Joe just to take his man outside and shot over them. This has been effective, but he still get that double team. Last year against Milwaukee, Skiles started off believing that Brandon and his other guard could maintain one on one defense on Joe and that would contain him. AND Joe ate those guys lunch. Then Skiles wised up, Doubled Joe and forced the others to beat him. When Joe is doubled, somebody has to be open and able to take advantage of that. For a few years, it was Bibby being the only guy who could nail an open shot. Horf is coming around and Smoove does what he can, but there's yet to be anybody in our ranks that can force defenses to remain honest with Joe. Our inconsistency is the problem.

[Diesel]

He is now overpaid but that was a business decision. He is exactly what I expected and hoped for when we traded for him, 20, 5, and 5 SG. Not a Jordan or Kobe but a hell of a basketball player at the highest level.

I cannot blame JJ for being overpaid anymore than I can blame him for being surrounded by borderline starters since he has been here. Look at Amare, super great player and no rings due to his surrounding players and he had a all world PG to play with. Now look at JJ, solid player with no rings and he has never had a Nash or now Melo for that matter along side him since being here. Howard has not been able to do it by himself either.

Some think JJ should be able to take us to the promised land all by himself. I think those that do should check themselves and take a look at players like Amare, Howard, Nash, Deron, Paul, Durant, Dirk, and Melo et al first to get a reality check on the fact that teams win championships not individual players.

If nothing else proves that point, the proof should be the fact that Dwayne Wade has lost to who in the last two playoff series? That's right Joe Johnson and the Atlanta Hawks. It's a team sport. I think our team has flaws and that Joe is not going to be able to overcome all of our flaws alone. I think where we really stink is big man.

I applaud to pick up of Hinrich. Though he's still adjusting, I think the improvement on defense will be a difference maker. I think next is to get a defined defensive Big and a coach who really knows what he is doing.

[Buzzard]

If nothing else proves that point, the proof should be the fact that Dwayne Wade has lost to who in the last two playoff series? That's right Joe Johnson and the Atlanta Hawks. It's a team sport. I think our team has flaws and that Joe is not going to be able to overcome all of our flaws alone. I think where we really stink is big man.

I applaud to pick up of Hinrich. Though he's still adjusting, I think the improvement on defense will be a difference maker. I think next is to get a defined defensive Big and a coach who really knows what he is doing.

We have always agreed on the fact that we need a big and a PG but I am not sold on Hinrich yet. Especially considering we gave up two 1st round picks to get him. If he pans out its great, but if he turns out to be just a bandaid I am going to hate it. Jordan Crawford is sure looking like he could fill Jamals shoes next season.

A big is next and I am going to give Hinrich until the trade deadline next season before calling this trade a total loss. My gut says it is but I am hoping like hell its not.