To the Joe Haters....

[Guest]

Lebron as the "best" player couldn't win, Kobe as "best" player couldn't win a title until Pau, Paul Pierce didn't win "nam" until KG and Ray, but everyone expects Joe to do that with this supporting cast. Dirk is finally looking good because of a veteran supporintg cast. You know what all these championship caliber teams have in common, good solid veterans surrounding their star players.

Everyone talks about Joe's production dropping but fail to take into account the change in offensive philosophy withJosh and Al getting more shots, less minutes played, and the elbow injury that required surgery.

[Diesel]

For me it's having no doubt that this team will never win a title with JJ. The Hawks will never be bad enough to get into the lottery and will never be good enough to get past LeBron James. I'm with mrhonline on this one. Time for a fresh start.

I think you need to be more truthful than this. If you're honest, you can't see any way that this team will ever win a title. JJ or not.

Be totally honest.

It's a BS line to sit here and say that you see this team winning a title if we get rid of JJ.

Because if you're honest, you can't see that. This is the purpose of my post.

If you don't want JJ, what's your plan, dream, scenario, or vision of the Hawks winning a championship?

For many of you... You can't see it because all you can see are the mistakes.

So what do you say?

1. Start Over
   
2. Get his money back.
   
3. Wish that super free agent signs here.
   
   

Today, I'm your reality check. You just want to do something for the sake of doing it. Here's the check, without Joe:

1. Kobe is not coming.

2. Lebron is not coming.

3. Howard is not coming.

4. Paul is not coming.

5. Deron is not coming.

Nobody wants to leave their situation to go to a team that would get rid of their 5 time allstar in order to make some wiggle room?

That smells like a loser.

Players respect Loyalty.

In fact, don't take my word on it...

""I'm the luckiest guy in the world," O'Neal told the New Orleans Times-Picayune. "I've had four max contracts in one lifetime. ... I could have gotten $8 million from Atlanta and Detroit, but it wasn't about that. It was about being somewhere and being seen and winning."

""These guys (the Celtics) are one step away," O'Neal said before Boston played the Hawks Monday night at Philips Arena. "But I love this town. I've had a home in Buckhead for 15 years.""

Point is that We offered Shaq 8 Million dollars to come play for us. He took Boston's 1.35 Million.

[AHF]

Where does this idea come that you need an superstar #1 option. Plenty of teams have won without a superstar #1 option. Celtics, Pistons, 76ers, Showtime Lakers. .. all these guys existed without having a true front man.

The Showtime Lakers had the leading scorer of All-Time and a 6-time MVP in Kareem along with multiple MVP Magic Johnson.

The 76ers had multiple MVP Moses Malone.

The Pistons of recent years did not have a superstar. The older Pistons had top 50 player Isiah Thomas (who was a great player).

The Celtics had multiple MVP Larry Bird.

How in the world is someone who won multiple MVPs not a superstar #1 option?

In the case of Kareem, how is the leading scorer in NBA history not a superstar #1 option?

The point is not whether these guys were so much better than their teammates that they towered overthem as the "one and only star" for their team. The point as far as winning championships goes is that it is really, really hard to win one without an MVP-level talent on your team.

I'm not advocating that we dump Joe because I would rather we remain competitive and explore every trade opportunity we can to acquire a superstar (Deron, Paul, Dwight, etc.) but that doesn't mean we should kid ourselves that we have a good shot at a championship until we acquire an MVP-level talent.

[Diesel]

The Showtime Lakers had the leading scorer of All-Time and a 6-time MVP in Kareem along with multiple MVP Magic Johnson.

The 76ers had multiple MVP Moses Malone.

The Pistons of recent years did not have a superstar. The older Pistons had top 50 player Isiah Thomas (who was a great player).

The Celtics had multiple MVP Larry Bird.

How in the world is someone who won multiple MVPs not a superstar #1 option?

In the case of Kareem, how is the leading scorer in NBA history not a superstar #1 option?

The point is not whether these guys were so much better than their teammates that they towered overthem as the "one and only star" for their team. The point as far as winning championships goes is that it is really, really hard to win one without an MVP-level talent on your team.

I'm not advocating that we dump Joe because I would rather we remain competitive and explore every trade opportunity we can to acquire a superstar (Deron, Paul, Dwight, etc.) but that doesn't mean we should kid ourselves that we have a good shot at a championship until we acquire an MVP-level talent.

As you show, no one of those guys was the true #1.

Magic ran the show, but Kareem was the finisher. Neither guy was looked at as being that Jordan (team built around me person).

I think you don't see what I'm getting at.

Teams... with multiple leaders win basketball championships.

Jordan's Bulls have propagated this myth that you have to have 1 #1 guy and he has to carry you to a championship.

BS.

I'm a fan of the Detroit Bad Boys.

Where Isiah was the front man, but it was Dumars or Johnson or somebody else that would save the day (finish games).

Now, Joe is a 5 time allstar. But like Magic, Isaiah, all the Celtics, Dr. J, Pierce, KG, and Ray Allen... he cannot win it by himself. The team has to step up.

Finally, I agree... we have to acquire more talent than we have. We have to fix our holes before we start to evaluate the one thing that is working for us.

[Guest]

The days of the perceived "one star" leading the team to a championship is over. why do you think LBJ left Cleveland as good as he is he can't do it by himself, why do you think Kobe was hollering for a trade until Pau, Boston-Big 3, San Antonio - Big 3, NY is trying to get their Big 3. Their is a perceived perception that because JJ signed his big contract it's all on him to drag this bunch to the top of the mountain.

[sasuke]

No...

I'm saying don't look at being in the 2nd round of the playoffs with a young team like every team can do that.

I'm saying don't throw the baby out with the Bathwater.

I'm saying don't forget the 10 yrs we waited the last time we rebuilt.

I'm saying don't mistake something that takes a tweak or two for something that takes a rebuild.

Do you run to get a new engine everytime your car needs a tuneup?

Do you go to buy a new computer everytime your virus protection program says that you may have a virus?

Do you go out and find a new wife after you and your current wife have an argument?

Rebuilding would be a rash over reaction that is not guaranteed to do anything but prolong our championship hopes and probably lose in the process.

With JJ's contract taking like something close to 30% of our cap, exiting his prime & entering the decline, a 8 mill bad contract in Marvin, no cash & non attractive picks to package, a ownership reluctant to spend on tax. I'll going to ask you this: What on God's green earth can you do to turn this team in to a contender with no flexibility? You can't get anything back for Marvin, & for Joe........best case scenario maybe Gasol or Deng but still sounds not very realistic cuz, man, JJ's contract is just way to much for what he does. What can we do REALISTICALLY?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

North, this entire post is steaming crap because it is one giant assumption trying to be passed off as fact. You telling me that you know for damn sure that Sund would of given Jamal a 60 mil contract to replace Joe? Cmooooooooooooooon man. Let me hold that crystal ball for my finals please, I'm sure it'll come in super handy. Chances are that the ASG would have given Jamal the same opportunity to earn a new contract as they, you know, actually did now, in actual reality, before they looked to resign him at whatever price and the reason why the ASG has had to sell the fanbase on signings such as Powell and Joe Smith is DUN DUN DUN!!! because they've been skirting the lux tax line and that's all they could afford. Shocking, I know.

Please go back and preface this post with a "fantasy scenario #1" disclaimer because you are not fooling anyone sensible with that nonsense. We had a rookie scorer in the stable that we traded away in namesake Jr, we have a sophomore that emerged as a good scorer and defender and I was able to name off the top of my head more than several young wings that are populating the league that will either be free agents or could be traded for yet you want to pretend as if your scenario is the most likely? Garbage.

And to answer the first question of your post.......uhm I'll take lucking into Joe Johnson for 300, Alex. Yea I think I should have some faith in the same management that brought us Joe Johnson in the first place to manage to replace him unless of course you forgot that glaring little historical tidbit.

Steaming crap huh . . . lol.

OK C to C . . why did we trade for "he who's name shall not be mentioned"? Remember, this was BEFORE JJ signed that contract.

JC2 was the contingency plan for if JJ didn't return, so that he could play JC1's role off the bench, and Jamal could play Joe's role as a starter ( because he would've HAD to start ). And with Jamal in a contract year, and just winning the 6th Man of the Year award, do you really think the ASG would've let him go to market with no go to guy or shot creators on this team?

For the same reason why they locked up Horford before the season started, they would've did the same thing with Jamal . . . especially if Jamal would've started talking about not getting a contract extension like he did earlier in the year.

If the ASG would've decided to let JJ go, it would've been because they felt that JAMAL could replace him. This is why Jamal would've got that contract. Maybe not 15 mill a year . . but definitely higher than the 10 mill a year that he earned in 09 - 10. Jamal would've HAD to be the man here, because he would've been the only one who could get his own shot at any time.

****************

As for the ASG selling us on Powell and Joe Smith, that's my point. We should've never brought those guys into the mix in the first place. Those weren't the type of players we needed on this team. A non-scoring, but good rebounding PF would've had more worth on the Hawks, than the limited offensive, no rebounding, and no defense that Powell and Joe Smith brought to the table. Heck . .we'd been better off keeping Solomom Jones here, if those were going to be the guys that replaced him off the bench. Solo was weak as hell and was a foul machine, but at least he could block and/or alter a shot.

Etan Thomas? Damien Wilkins? Jason Collins ( who is only good for somewhat limiting what Dwight Howard does )? Man please. Even adding another wing like a T-Mac, whom Detroit got to play for them for a minimum contract, would've had more value as a backup SF, than any of those big men we had on this team. The ASG/Sund have been poor at evaluating talent across the board. Flip Murray was the only guy that truly worked out as a low level guy.

****************

And us getting Joe Johnson was more than luck . . it was damn near the perfect storm

- JJ's former team throws him a contract offer that he thought he was worth more than

- Hawks are absolutely pitiful, but damn near 20 million under the cap

- JJ sees an opportunity to play closer to home, while playing for more money, and getting a chance to be "the man"

- Knight uses a loophole in the CBA to offer JJ what basically was a balloon payment of 20 mill in Year 1, sweetening the pot

- JJ seeing the chance to go from 3 mill to 20 million in one year, plus be the main guy on a team, asks the Suns not to match ATL's offer

- ATL gives Phoenix what they want . . Diaw + 2 first round picks, for JJ

So you tell me C to C . . where are we going to have that kind of a "perfect storm" in order to get a player at or above JJ's caliber? We can only do it via a trade. And if JJ wasn't here, we wouldn't have been far enough under the salary cap to make a serious offer at a good player. We would've only been something like 4 - 5 million under the cap without JJ signed. LOL . . which is another reason why the ASG would've locked up Jamal Crawford.

There.

There's a big pile of garbage for you to sift though. And it's all a very likely scenario, than wishing that this organization finds some "diamond in the rough" and molds him into a star or superstar.

[MaceCase]

Again you are making the assumption that the ASG would have let JJ walk cuz they liked Jamal more.....stop trying to sell me your dumb opinions man like they are fact. How bout what if JJ wanted to win a ring with Rose or join his buddy and old coach in NY rather than take the extra cash? Oh or the ASG came to their senses and said uhmmm this contract will haunt us forever and not budged off of something more palatable which JJ refused? Why are you trying to thinly veil your Jamal hate by saying he was the be all end all Joe contingency? You want to use Al as your prime example? All Star Al heading into a season where RFA's might not even exist thanks to a new CBA? Yea I can't see why Sund wouldn't prefer to get a deal done sooner than later. But wait, if we traded away Jamal's replacement how come we haven't resigned him since the ASG love him so much? Do me a favor and look up Solo's contract while you're at it and the difference between that and what the total of a vet minimum is in addition to what team actually pays on a vet minimum if you think finances aren't what dictated the team's moves.

And again your "perfect storm" scenario omits the most basic fact, the ASG threw a lot of money at a 4th option 23 year old who had only one successful season to his resume. Who cares about loopholes and playing chicken and whatever the f*** else when the fact remains that we took a young nobody paid him a lot of money and made him somebody. Did young players stop loving money all of a sudden? I must have missed that memo because those players that I mentioned are similarly young players that may be too expensive for their current teams due to them wanting to cut salary or having bigger commitment elsewhere.

Again, garbage. Pure garbage. I can't see why people want to pretend as if Joe was a 5 time all star before he came to ATL to be talking s*** about it would be impossible to find another player of his caliber. Get real, Woody and ATL MADE Joe and not the other way around. I fail to see how it would of been impossible to find another player or players that we could have similarly developed over the life of his contract but whatever "Imagine it was Jamal at 60 million!!!!!!!!! lolz"

[Crank]

The fact that Diesel is actually trying to convince someone that Magic Johnson was not a superstar is some kinda bad joke .

Isiah was a superstar

Magic and Kareem were superstars

Dr J was not a superstar ?

KG was a superstar

what ? lol roflmao

It really is laughable but also at the same time sad that its come to this .

You dont have to have a media darling but you arent sniffing a title unless you have someone playing at a elite(superstar) level consistently on your team . Pick your team and I can name someone who was playing as well as any superstar in the league when they won that title .

We barely get all star level consistently.

[Diesel]

With JJ's contract taking like something close to 30% of our cap, exiting his prime & entering the decline, a 8 mill bad contract in Marvin, no cash & non attractive picks to package, a ownership reluctant to spend on tax. I'll going to ask you this: What on God's green earth can you do to turn this team in to a contender with no flexibility? You can't get anything back for Marvin, & for Joe........best case scenario maybe Gasol or Deng but still sounds not very realistic cuz, man, JJ's contract is just way to much for what he does. What can we do REALISTICALLY?

First of all, we have very good peices for trade. We are not inflexible.

Just the other day, I read guys saying what a great player Zaza would be to trade for?

Then there's Joe, Josh, Horf, Craw, and Teague. There's also Zaza, Hinrich, Teague, and Marvin.

We are not inflexible. Anybody is tradable.

We have lots of good pieces that teams want. That is how business is done in the NBA. When have the Lakers every rebuilt from the draft? You do it with trade. However, in order to build a championship team, you have to have a plan.

Danny Ainge's plan was to get Allen, KG, and Peirce together. He was willing to give up picks and Al Jefferson.

The only way we become inflexible is when we start putting players who are not producing what we need.... on the untouchable list.

We were inflexible when it came to Marvin and Josh for the last 6 years. We are inflexible as it relates to Horf.

However ,what we need is to evaluate what they bring and where we lack and see if we should trade and how we should build.

We do have flexibility.

The question is, do we have a plan and are you ready to sacrifice.

[Diesel]

The fact that Diesel is actually trying to convince someone that Magic Johnson was not a superstar is some kinda bad joke .

Isiah was a superstar

Magic and Kareem were superstars

Dr J was not a superstar ?

KG was a superstar

what ? lol roflmao

It really is laughable but also at the same time sad that its come to this .

You dont have to have a media darling but you arent sniffing a title unless you have someone playing at a elite(superstar) level consistently on your team . Pick your team and I can name someone who was playing as well as any superstar in the league when they won that title .

We barely get all star level consistently.

I never said Magic wasn't a superstar. I'm saying that those Lakers had several guys who could step up and be the number 1 guy. Moreover, Kareem was more the #1 guy than Magic. You must be young?? Probably never watched Showtime Lakers..

Let me school you youngin... Why do you think they called Kareem " The Captain"? What do you think it meant when Pat Riley put up the double fist int he 4th quarter? Who do you think was the NBA scoring leader of all time.. Magic or Kareem??

They were both great and they comprised A TEAM...

Dr. J couldn't win until Moses Malone came on the scene. That 76er team was great... a team filled with Allstars.. but it took one more before they were a championship team. They were all great but they comprised A TEAM....

KG was and is a superstar.. but in Minny, they talked about him not being able to get it done. In fact, KG got the reputaton of a stat Padder??? Until he won with the Celtics... They are all great, but they comprised A TEAM...

I really hope you misunderstood what I said.. because if you truly believe any of these guys carried a team to the championship, you need to pass whatever it is you're smoking to he left!!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Again you are making the assumption that the ASG would have let JJ walk cuz they liked Jamal more.....stop trying to sell me your dumb opinions man like they are fact. How bout what if JJ wanted to win a ring with Rose or join his buddy and old coach in NY rather than take the extra cash? Oh or the ASG came to their senses and said uhmmm this contract will haunt us forever and not budged off of something more palatable which JJ refused? Why are you trying to thinly veil your Jamal hate by saying he was the be all end all Joe contingency? You want to use Al as your prime example? All Star Al heading into a season where RFA's might not even exist thanks to a new CBA? Yea I can't see why Sund wouldn't prefer to get a deal done sooner than later. But wait, if we traded away Jamal's replacement how come we haven't resigned him since the ASG love him so much? Do me a favor and look up Solo's contract while you're at it and the difference between that and what the total of a vet minimum is in addition to what team actually pays on a vet minimum if you think finances aren't what dictated the team's moves.

And again your "perfect storm" scenario omits the most basic fact, the ASG threw a lot of money at a 4th option 23 year old who had only one successful season to his resume. Who cares about loopholes and playing chicken and whatever the f*** else when the fact remains that we took a young nobody paid him a lot of money and made him somebody. Did young players stop loving money all of a sudden? I must have missed that memo because those players that I mentioned are similarly young players that may be too expensive for their current teams due to them wanting to cut salary or having bigger commitment elsewhere.

Again, garbage. Pure garbage. I can't see why people want to pretend as if Joe was a 5 time all star before he came to ATL to be talking s*** about it would be impossible to find another player of his caliber. Get real, Woody and ATL MADE Joe and not the other way around. I fail to see how it would of been impossible to find another player or players that we could have similarly developed over the life of his contract but whatever "Imagine it was Jamal at 60 million!!!!!!!!! lolz"

I'm saying that if the ASG liked Jamal more . . or if they didn't want to pay JJ top dollar . . then yes, they would've let him walk. That's what some people wanted right? For him to walk?

But I'll throw the ball to you. You name a scenario complete with names that we could've legitimately brought here last year, had JJ decide not to come back to ATL. Name some names. Name a scenario.

I named mine . . which was the most plausible one out there, because we could easily extend Jamal and not worry about the salary cap issues that would've prohibited the ASG from bringing in other free agents. If you can't see the scenario in which the ASG would've given Jamal the big contract if JJ wasn't here, then I don't know what to say. If they didn't, then we'd definitely be screwed and doomed for the lottery. But not a worse enough team to get one of the top picks unless we got extremely lucky.

Solo made what? 1.5 mill last year? It's not like Indiana threw the bank at him. I think he got something like a 2 yr - 3 million dollar deal or something.

As for JJ in Phoenix . . JJ was a "so-called" 4th option that was the 2nd best ballhandler and shot creator on the team . . that averaged 17 ppg - 5 rebs - 4 asst.

Some of you guys throw around that 4th option comment like he was a scrub in Phoenix or something. Like he was Marvin Williams in Phoenix as a 4th option or something.

JJ had shown even before Nash got there in 04, that he could play the point and the 2, seeing that before Nash got there, it was he, Amare, and Shawn Marion. I think the scenario was that they traded Stephon Marbury or he got hurt. I forget the circumstances. But here's what that 4th option was doing without Nash on the squad in 03 - 04

Jan - 21 ppg - 5 rebs - 5 asst - 47% FG

Feb - 18 ppg - 5 rebs - 6 asst - 43% FG

Mar - 19 ppg - 5 rebs - 5 asst - 46% FG

Apr - 16 ppg - 5 rebs - 6 asst - 38% FG

So that 4th option the following year had already shown MAJOR SIGNS of becoming a baller. But when Nash got there, he was their designated slasher/shooter, and had the ball less in his hands.

So you can keep referring to him as a 4th option, like he was some sort of scrub or something. It's straight BS is what it is. He was a 4th option in the offense only . . . not a 4th option in skilll and production.

Maybe that's what you should do C to C.

Find a player that we can get right now, that isn't one of the main guys on the team, but is putting up comparable numbers to JJ in Phoenix. Find us at the very least a 17 ppg - 4 rebs - 4 assist guy . . . and we can trade JJ for him. Maybe the Clippers will give us Eric Gordon ( which would be silly, seeing that the Clips would need more than JJ to put them over the top . . and Gordon may arguably be a better scorer than JJ right now anyway ).

But go ahead . .find us a young guy. Just don't say you'd trade him. Tell us who we could legitimately bring back.

I never said Magic wasn't a superstar. I'm saying that those Lakers had several guys who could step up and be the number 1 guy. Moreover, Kareem was more the #1 guy than Magic. You must be young?? Probably never watched Showtime Lakers..

Let me school you youngin... Why do you think they called Kareem " The Captain"? What do you think it meant when Pat Riley put up the double fist int he 4th quarter? Who do you think was the NBA scoring leader of all time.. Magic or Kareem??

They were both great and they comprised A TEAM...

Dr. J couldn't win until Moses Malone came on the scene. That 76er team was great... a team filled with Allstars.. but it took one more before they were a championship team. They were all great but they comprised A TEAM....

KG was and is a superstar.. but in Minny, they talked about him not being able to get it done. In fact, KG got the reputaton of a stat Padder??? Until he won with the Celtics... They are all great, but they comprised A TEAM...

I really hope you misunderstood what I said.. because if you truly believe any of these guys carried a team to the championship, you need to pass whatever it is you're smoking to he left!!

Diesel . . they have short memories . . or forget the history of the league.

While I do agree that you do need that star player on the team, in a lot of instances, that star player didn't become recognized as a legit star player, until he got the help that elevated the team to championship level. Charles Barkley comes to mind before he went to Phoenix. Barkley was a superstar, but he was never taken seriously as a guy who you could win a title with, until he teamed up with KJ and Dan Majerle in Phoenix. When he got better players around him, he became legit, and even won an MVP.

[Wretch]

Everybody makes this issue about "somebody." The truth is, we have a lot of talent on this team. Even truer is the fact that the talent on this team is just not working together as a unit. To get out of the 2nd round, Joe has to step up, Teague has to be for real, Josh and Al have to attack the paint, Marvin needs to hit open shots/not fumble the ball/etc., Drew has to (pick your favorite gripe). Ownership has to change.

It's too much. I like the "car", "computer", "wife" analogy...

The car has a lot of issues that keep having to get serviced. Major, recurring issues with the wiring, fuel efficiency, calipers keep sticking (despite being replaced constantly), you're on your 3rd starter, clutch keeps slipping...

The computer has all new parts, but you're still on XP, it keeps BSOD'ing, PSU keeps spiking and rebooting, CPU keeps overheating (though the cooling fan is properly secure and adequately greased)

The wife takes long lunches every day (we'll call that long jump shots lol) at the same time as the charming boss guy, keeps her phone password protected, won't let you into her E-mail, and is always coming home late despite you not being able to reach her at the office.

At some point, you've gotta stop trying to put your finger on one problem and look at the thing from a holistic perspective. The sh!t doesn't work. You do what you have to if you want things to be better. I don't know who I would deal for who, until I know who is available and who is willing to deal.

I can tell you that there ain't a damn dude on this team that I wouldn't trade. We have no untouchables and that includes JJ. And I don't care what anyone says... I would nuke this damn thing to the stone age...down to winning less than 5 games a year and wouldn't give a flying damn sh!t. Wouldn't even think twice about it. Not out of rage or anxiousness...but to break the damn cycle.

Someone brought the point up about Orlando...what what trades did for them. They won't be as good as us if we maintain what we have. Their trades forced that. However, as they slowly lose that winning core, something else will happen. They will bottom out and have nothing but money and draft picks. I hope it happens. I hope they salvage Dwight because he intends to leave.

At that point, let's see how long it takes them to get back to the top. They've gone around twice since we've been trying to GET to the ECFs. So has Miami (with a championship). So have a few teams.

Let's see what happens if we maintain and try to "tweak" this roster, while other teams are eroding and preparing to build back up.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Wretch . . I disagree with the complete blow up philosophy. There's no way I want to go back to waiting 3 - 5 years to get back to playoff level, just because I wanted to break up this team. Look how long it took the Knicks to get back to the playoffs.

Nah . . no way I'm doing a total breakdown.

People know where and what the problem is. All that needs to happen is if we want to trade him or not.

This team was a sub 500 ( really a sub .400 ) team the last third of the season. If this was the NFL, the Hawks would be a 9 - 7 team that won its wild card playoff game on the road, but lost by 10 points in the divisional playoff round.

Yeah, it's great that the team won that playoff game, but the regular season showed that there were many areas that could've been improved. So you see where you may be weak at, and make a move to upgrade the team.

Trade one of the frontline guys, and see if we can balance out this team. Trading JJ may be hard for a few years, so the best way to change the mix is to trade either Horford or Smith probably needs to be traded.

[Wretch]

Wretch . . I disagree with the complete blow up philosophy. There's no way I want to go back to waiting 3 - 5 years to get back to playoff level, just because I wanted to break up this team. Look how long it took the Knicks to get back to the playoffs.

Nah . . no way I'm doing a total breakdown.

People know where and what the problem is. All that needs to happen is if we want to trade him or not.

This team was a sub 500 ( really a sub .400 ) team the last third of the season. If this was the NFL, the Hawks would be a 9 - 7 team that won its wild card playoff game on the road, but lost by 10 points in the divisional playoff round.

Yeah, it's great that the team won that playoff game, but the regular season showed that there were many areas that could've been improved. So you see where you may be weak at, and make a move to upgrade the team.

Trade one of the frontline guys, and see if we can balance out this team. Trading JJ may be hard for a few years, so the best way to change the mix is to trade either Horford or Smith probably needs to be traded.

I understand that we're winning and that nothing is guaranteed - these are themes and common threads that I've listened to for years. Not just now, but for the past two decades. But looking at the negatives of rebuilding is just like looking at the rebuilding champions through rose colored glasses. The Knicks shot themselves far worse than we did. They piled bad contracts on top of giving away draft picks and have compounded that with dealing away all of their talent for one guy. But some teams got it right...look at OKC.

I wouldn't advocate blowing up this thing, just to roll the dice. No. I'd want things to be done the right way. Probably not all at once, but little by little...getting the right young talent and picks in the process - possibly tacking Marvin Williams on a deal in the process.

I agree though that it starts at the front line. Regardless of what we do, it starts there.

Edited May 28, 2011 by Wretch

[thescout5]

All I have to do it point to Oklahoma City, Memphis and the Bulls as teams who have built their core the right way. The Hawks have been stuck in this cycle of being eliminated in the 1st or 2nd round cycle for awhile now and don't appear to be going the distance any time soon.All 3 of those teams mentioned have young point guards who will be very good to great players for a long time. Teague,why was he on the bench for so long instead of in games trying to develop him? Like I said JJ disappears to much to be counted on against top echelon teams. I'd be willing to move anyone on the roster to build the team the right way.

[Diesel]

Everybody makes this issue about "somebody." The truth is, we have a lot of talent on this team. Even truer is the fact that the talent on this team is just not working together as a unit. To get out of the 2nd round, Joe has to step up, Teague has to be for real, Josh and Al have to attack the paint, Marvin needs to hit open shots/not fumble the ball/etc., Drew has to (pick your favorite gripe). Ownership has to change.

It's too much. I like the "car", "computer", "wife" analogy...

The car has a lot of issues that keep having to get serviced. Major, recurring issues with the wiring, fuel efficiency, calipers keep sticking (despite being replaced constantly), you're on your 3rd starter, clutch keeps slipping...

The computer has all new parts, but you're still on XP, it keeps BSOD'ing, PSU keeps spiking and rebooting, CPU keeps overheating (though the cooling fan is properly secure and adequately greased)

The wife takes long lunches every day (we'll call that long jump shots lol) at the same time as the charming boss guy, keeps her phone password protected, won't let you into her E-mail, and is always coming home late despite you not being able to reach her at the office.

At some point, you've gotta stop trying to put your finger on one problem and look at the thing from a holistic perspective. The sh!t doesn't work. You do what you have to if you want things to be better. I don't know who I would deal for who, until I know who is available and who is willing to deal.

I can tell you that there ain't a damn dude on this team that I wouldn't trade. We have no untouchables and that includes JJ. And I don't care what anyone says... I would nuke this damn thing to the stone age...down to winning less than 5 games a year and wouldn't give a flying damn sh!t. Wouldn't even think twice about it. Not out of rage or anxiousness...but to break the damn cycle.

Someone brought the point up about Orlando...what what trades did for them. They won't be as good as us if we maintain what we have. Their trades forced that. However, as they slowly lose that winning core, something else will happen. They will bottom out and have nothing but money and draft picks. I hope it happens. I hope they salvage Dwight because he intends to leave.

At that point, let's see how long it takes them to get back to the top. They've gone around twice since we've been trying to GET to the ECFs. So has Miami (with a championship). So have a few teams.

Let's see what happens if we maintain and try to "tweak" this roster, while other teams are eroding and preparing to build back up.

While i may have mistaken said Untouchable earlier, what I mean is that Joe, Hinrich, Teague, and Zaza represent a good starting point of players who fit what we need to be competitive in the shortterm. We can actually buuild off of that.

However, all can and may be traded for the right deal.

I just wouldn't trade JJ without formulating a plan of how we will win.

Your examples are still not reasons to start completely over... Especially the wife. If you suspect your wife is cheating, start with calling her on it.. not with calling a divorce lawyer. Communication is the key in a marriage and in a basketball franchise.

[Wretch]

While i may have mistaken said Untouchable earlier, what I mean is that Joe, Hinrich, Teague, and Zaza represent a good starting point of players who fit what we need to be competitive in the shortterm. We can actually buuild off of that.

However, all can and may be traded for the right deal.

I just wouldn't trade JJ without formulating a plan of how we will win.

Your examples are still not reasons to start completely over... Especially the wife. If you suspect your wife is cheating, start with calling her on it.. not with calling a divorce lawyer. Communication is the key in a marriage and in a basketball franchise.

...and you don't think we've called these guys out? We showed we could play with Boston in 08...what happened game 7? How many "players only" meetings have we had after countless blowouts? How many times has Smoove been called out? What about Joe and how stars "fight through it"? What about Marvin...lol, i'm not going to even go there.

I think we're past the point where we bark at these guys. The rebuilding started 7 years ago and the product of that is a team that really doesn't look like it's getting out of the 2nd round. Chicago will come back better. Miami will come back better (if they don't win it all). Orlando is still getting better. Free agents will come to NY and they will fill out that team. All the while we DON'T know who the next drafted Rose or Durant is going to turn out to be.

What are we going to do? Keep throwing "only if's" at this thing? Picking late 1sts...no room for FA's. I'm sorry, but I just don't share the vision that a few tweaks here or there is going to take us over the hump. Maybe a a game or two in the 2nd round, a tough game 7.

I just don't see it in this core.

If there is encouragement though, I like Jeff Teague. I'm actually excited to see a whole year of a Teague/Kirk backcourt with JJ at SF. I'd like to see Al come to training camp with some intentions on establishing himself in the post. But it just feels like more of the same. More "if only"....

If you have the means to get a new car, get a new wife, or get a new computer after all those problems...why keep dumping into it? Why set yourself up for failure? If we're not at the reboot phase yet, man I think we're VERY close.

Edited May 28, 2011 by Wretch

[Diesel]

All I have to do it point to Oklahoma City, Memphis and the Bulls as teams who have built their core the right way. The Hawks have been stuck in this cycle of being eliminated in the 1st or 2nd round cycle for awhile now and don't appear to be going the distance any time soon.All 3 of those teams mentioned have young point guards who will be very good to great players for a long time. Teague,why was he on the bench for so long instead of in games trying to develop him? Like I said JJ disappears to much to be counted on against top echelon teams. I'd be willing to move anyone on the roster to build the team the right way.

You can point to those teams. However, I wouldn't dare call it quickly. Especially not for Chicago.

Moreover, when you call those names, look at the draft picks.

Rose = #1 overall in a strong Draft. Had to get Boozer, Korvin, and Brewer.

Durant = #2 overall in a top heavy draft. Team is filled with lottery picks... Still Had to get Perk..

How many lottery picks does Memphis have? And they still had to trade for Zebo and pay for Gasol.

Now that you're finished pointing, I point to Boston, Miami, and NY...

You start off with a star player, you go get more stars and stop trying to develop.

Remember, we beat Dwayne Wade and the Heat in the playoffs. He was only going to take them so far... Did they go out and get their core from the draft? Did they say, let's trade our star and build around Haslem because he's cheaper?

Boston could have gotten rid of Pierce when they got KG and Allen, but they kept him. And it was the right thing to do.

...and you don't think we've called these guys out? We showed we could play with Boston in 08...what happened game 7? How many "players only" meetings have we had after countless blowouts? How many times has Smoove been called out? What about Joe and how stars "fight through it"? What about Marvin...lol, i'm not going to even go there.

I think we're past the point where we bark at these guys. The rebuilding started 7 years ago and the product of that is a team that really doesn't look like it's getting out of the 2nd round. Chicago will come back better. Miami will come back better (if they don't win it all). Orlando is still getting better. Free agents will come to NY and they will fill out that team. All the while we DON'T know who the next drafted Rose or Durant is going to turn out to be.

What are we going to do? Keep throwing "only if's" at this thing? Picking late 1sts...no room for FA's. I'm sorry, but I just don't share the vision that a few tweaks here or there is going to take us over the hump. Maybe a a game or two in the 2nd round, a tough game 7.

I just don't see it in this core.

If there is encouragement though, I like Jeff Teague. I'm actually excited to see a whole year of a Teague/Kirk backcourt with JJ at SF. I'd like to see Al come to training camp with some intentions on establishing himself in the post. But it just feels like more of the same. More "if only"....

If you have the means to get a new car, get a new wife, or get a new computer after all those problems...why keep dumping into it? Why set yourself up for failure? If we're not at the reboot phase yet, man I think we're VERY close.

I don't think there's nearly enough patience with the "core" of this team. Of course, Core should be redefined.. but for years we suffered with Woody ball. One year with LD and we win our first 2nd round game in the pfayoffs and we matched up with the top seed in the NBA even with our starting PG injured. Game 5 was pivotal and all of Chicago was nervous. When was the last time we had a playoff team Nervous in the Second round? Boston? when Nique and Bird faced off?

Honestly, team meetings are meaningless. It's the system. Coaching makes a difference and so does personnel. But these are not start over conditions.

[Crank]

I never said Magic wasn't a superstar. I'm saying that those Lakers had several guys who could step up and be the number 1 guy. Moreover, Kareem was more the #1 guy than Magic. You must be young?? Probably never watched Showtime Lakers..

Let me school you youngin... Why do you think they called Kareem " The Captain"? What do you think it meant when Pat Riley put up the double fist int he 4th quarter? Who do you think was the NBA scoring leader of all time.. Magic or Kareem??

They were both great and they comprised A TEAM...

Dr. J couldn't win until Moses Malone came on the scene. That 76er team was great... a team filled with Allstars.. but it took one more before they were a championship team. They were all great but they comprised A TEAM....

KG was and is a superstar.. but in Minny, they talked about him not being able to get it done. In fact, KG got the reputaton of a stat Padder??? Until he won with the Celtics... They are all great, but they comprised A TEAM...

I really hope you misunderstood what I said.. because if you truly believe any of these guys carried a team to the championship, you need to pass whatever it is you're smoking to he left!!

The problem is this you equate Joe to Kareem or Magic or Dr J or KG when the fact is that no matter how you try and spin it Joe would be there sidekick . They would be the superstar and he would be the jamal wilkes.

Joe aint a superstar so to keep saying he needs help is ridiculous there is no amount of help in the league that we can Joe sans BRINGING IN A SUPERSTAR AND PUSHING HIM DOWN TO THE THE SECOND OR 3RD OPTION HE IS .

OF course the lakers had several guys who could step up but the facts are that Kareem and Magic were two of the most consistent players ever .

You like to use KG but KG was first team all nba the fact is that if you gave 29-30 yr old KG a player of Al,Josh,jamals caliber along with a Zaza and even Marvin Williams he gets this team to the finals at least .

Thats what the underlying problem really you keep trying to slide in that you think Joe is on the same caliber of player as these HOF players and hes simply not . Thats doest mean Joe sucks but that doesnt mean we should take on the ridiculous notion that we are somehow going to be able to build a championship team headlines with his inconsistency.

Thats our problem we have 3 very good players who are very inconsistent and whose play varies from game to game between average to good with occasional glimpses of greatness thrown in .

Kareem consistently great

Magic consistently great

KG consistently great

Now when you have someone who can give you that game to game and then you can add someone else who can consistently just be GOOD well now you are working with something.

We dont have anyone we can say brings there A game every game yet we somehow want to build a team around this ?

I dont think Joe ,Al or Josh sucks but I also believe that weve seen enough of them to know that they are nearly consistent enough to be locked into the status that weve given them .