James Harden discussion (from Howard & Paul dinner thread)

[JETSET]

Houston is the most overrated team in the NBA right now. Just looking at message boards and what not, their perception doesn't match the reality.

I agree with this x100. and Harden is the most overrated player in the league along with Blake Griffin. Harden shoots a meager 30% on shots that aren't layups or 3 pt attempts. He provides nothing on defense and his assist/turnover ratio was around 1.5:1 in the regular season and 1:1 in the playoffs this year. That's a terrible ratio for a guy who is depended on to handle the ball and initiate the offense. He also has failed in his biggest moments. He shot under 40% this year against the Thunder and averaged 4.5 turnovers a game. He's a ballstopper and is propped up by the leagues decision to anoint him a superstar when he hasn't earned it. Parsons is a better all-around offensive player than Harden.

A Paul/Harden pairing would not work as both ned the ball in their hands to be at their best. Horford is easily the better fit on offense and he actually provides rebounding and defense. Paul/Howard are high BBIQ guys and it has to be obvious to them that Horford is a better fit than Harden.

[AHF]

Harden shoots a meager 30% on shots that aren't layups or 3 pt attempts.

He was the most offensively effective SG in the league last season, but if you take away the two best shots and ignore his FTs then he isn't offensively effective? Sure. Kind of like saying Dikembe wasn't a great defender if you ignore his shot blocking and rebounding.

Harden is so very effective precisely because he takes high reward shots and gets to the line.

[JETSET]

He was the most offensively effective SG in the league last season, but if you take away the two best shots and ignore his FTs then he isn't offensively effective? Sure. Kind of like saying Dikembe wasn't a great defender if you ignore his shot blocking and rebounding.

Harden is so very effective precisely because he takes high reward shots and gets to the line.

Harden's go-to move is driving in to the lane and then just barrelling in to the defender and throwing his arms up and the refs reward him with the call every time. I don't see much skill in that. He flops around like a damn fish and doesn't even attempt to actually make the shot half the time. He has one of the ugliest offensive games in the league because of this. He would be just another player if the refs didn't hand him 10+ FT's a game. He chokes hard under the big lights. Houston probably beats OKC if they gave Parsons more touches and quit with the Harden dribbling out the clock on every possession and then trying his patented run into the lane, flop, and hope they make the call.

[AHF]

Harden's go-to move is driving in to the lane and then just barrelling in to the defender and throwing his arms up and the refs reward him with the call every time. I don't see much skill in that. He flops around like a damn fish and doesn't even attempt to actually make the shot half the time. He has one of the ugliest offensive games in the league because of this. He would be just another player if the refs didn't hand him 10+ FT's a game. He chokes hard under the big lights. Houston probably beats OKC if they gave Parsons more touches and quit with the Harden dribbling out the clock on every possession and then trying his patented run into the lane, flop, and hope they make the call.

2012-13

Parsons .584 TS%, 15.5 ppg, 15.4 pp36

Harden .600 TS%, 25.9 ppg, 24.4 pp36

Total players in the NBA scoring 20 ppg with better TS% than Harden:

Lebron James

Kevin Durant

End of list.

[NBASupes]

2012-13

Parsons .584 TS%, 15.5 ppg, 15.4 pp36

Harden .600 TS%, 25.9 ppg, 24.4 pp36

Total players in the NBA scoring 20 ppg with better TS% than Harden:

Lebron James

Kevin Durant

End of list.

TS% can be a flawed stat. You have this tendency to use flawed stats too often.

Facts on Harden. He is 10% worse shooting in losses than in wins.

His game lacks diversity. It is threes, slash, foul, and repeat till it fails. Mitch Richmond is a prime example. His game lacks BBIQ, off ball movement, and post skills and mid range shooting but what he does do, he is great at which is drawing fouls, shooting threes especially in transition, and attacking the paint with reckless abandon. Let's not mention his defense. Awful at PnR defense, missing defensive rotations constantly, it reminds me of the great defensive prowess of Jamal Crawford.

Parsons is another who have a major issue with if we are talking winning Basketball. Poor off the of the ball unless it's crashing down on boards, average BBIQ but he does use his athleticism well and he a good streak shooter. Defensively, he plays with a lot of passion but his lack of agility and BBIQ leaves him on an island too much. He is like the opposite of Budinger.

Do you watch NBA games of teams other then the Hawks or just look at stat sites? Sorry, I am buying your post on Malone or your post on Harden but I will say your post on Malone merits more respect than Harden who is not at all a championship level player.

[KB21]

He was the most offensively effective SG in the league last season, but if you take away the two best shots and ignore his FTs then he isn't offensively effective? Sure. Kind of like saying Dikembe wasn't a great defender if you ignore his shot blocking and rebounding.

Harden is so very effective precisely because he takes high reward shots and gets to the line.

Harden is the TOP shooting guard in the game today.

[NBASupes]

Harden is the TOP shooting guard in the game today.

This is the most flawed statement in the NBA today. It's 100% wrong. 100%. He is not even in the top 3.

1. Kobe

2. Wade

3. George

Even then, I have guys up and coming who will be better the position Heyward, Beal, and Klay Thompson.

[KB21]

TS% can be a flawed stat. You have this tendency to use flawed stats too often.

Facts on Harden. He is 10% worse shooting in losses than in wins.

His game lacks diversity. It is threes, slash, foul, and repeat till it fails. Mitch Richmond is a prime example. His game lacks BBIQ, off ball movement, and post skills and mid range shooting but what he does do, he is great at which is drawing fouls, shooting threes especially in transition, and attacking the paint with reckless abandon. Let's not mention his defense. Awful at PnR defense, missing defensive rotations constantly, it reminds me of the great defensive prowess of Jamal Crawford.

Parsons is another who have a major issue with if we are talking winning Basketball. Poor off the of the ball unless it's crashing down on boards, average BBIQ but he does use his athleticism well and he a good streak shooter. Defensively, he plays with a lot of passion but his lack of agility and BBIQ leaves him on an island too much. He is like the opposite of Budinger.

Do you watch NBA games of teams other then the Hawks or just look at stat sites? Sorry, I am buying your post on Malone or your post on Harden but I will say your post on Malone merits more respect than Harden who is not at all a championship level player.

TS% is not a flawed stat at all. It tells you how efficient a player is at scoring, period. James Harden is one of the most efficient scorers in the NBA precisely because he doesn't take bad shots from mid range. The fact that he plays to his strength shows that his BBIQ is very high. It is not a negative to avoid the mid range shot. In fact, I were to construct the perfect team, it would be a team that attacks the basket and shoots three point shots.

James's usage rate went up 8 percentage points, and he was still the most efficient scoring guard in basketball.

[NBASupes]

KB21 and AHF, how can such a flawed player be your best SG in the NBA?

[KB21]

This is the most flawed statement in the NBA today. It's 100% wrong. 100%. He is not even in the top 3.

1. Kobe

2. Wade

3. George

Even then, I have guys up and coming who will be better the position Heyward, Beal, and Klay Thompson.

Of those, Kobe Bryant is by far the most overrated. He is the epitome of a high usage, medium efficiency player.

Let's see. High usage, High efficiency vs high usage, medium efficiency. I think I'll take the more efficient player, since efficiency and not volume is what helps you win games.

Paul George has good potential, but he's not anywhere in the ball park when it comes to efficiency. He's got a TS% of 53% on a USG% of 23. So, he's a moderately efficient, moderate usage player. I'll still take the high efficiency, high usage guy over him.

Dwyane Wade is broken down and is no longer a top shooting guard.

[KB21]

KB21 and AHF, how can such a flawed player be your best SG in the NBA?

I don't see the flaws. He attacks the basket and shoots threes. 67% of his FGA's are either at the rim or behind the three point line. That's as close to perfect as you get. If you add in shots within 10 feet of the basket, 83% of his shots come either within 10 feet of the rim or behind the three point line. That's how I would want every player on the team to shoot.

[NBASupes]

TS% is not a flawed stat at all. It tells you how efficient a player is at scoring, period. James Harden is one of the most efficient scorers in the NBA precisely because he doesn't take bad shots from mid range. The fact that he plays to his strength shows that his BBIQ is very high. It is not a negative to avoid the mid range shot. In fact, I were to construct the perfect team, it would be a team that attacks the basket and shoots three point shots.

James's usage rate went up 8 percentage points, and he was still the most efficient scoring guard in basketball.

It is a flawed stat because it doesn't tell you how. Kobe's TS% is never high but his impact is always one of the best in the NBA because...

A. He is a high BBIQ player

B. He is generally a two way player and he was at times year.

C. He can score anyway possible. He is not just a Mitch Richmond like scorer like Harden.

D. He is a superior passer than Harden.

The mid range shot is a great shot as it clear pressure and causes the defense to collapse which gives freedom to outside shooters and inside players. It is part of the reason why SA, Miami, LA with prime Kobe, the Bulls with MJ, Jazz with Malone have been so efficient.

Mid range shot is a key part of championship Basketball next to being able to score an easy basket and post scoring. The three point shot is great when it is used correctly like SA but bad when it is overused without ball movement like Houston. GS is the best three point shooting team in the NBA and even they were halted because of their lack of mid range scoring and low post scoring.

Stats are good when used in the right context.

[KB21]

The midrange shot is the worst shot in basketball. The average FG% on a mid range jump shot is around 41%. You don't have to shoot three point shots very well to be able to outscore a 41% midrange shooter.

[NBASupes]

Of those, Kobe Bryant is by far the most overrated. He is the epitome of a high usage, medium efficiency player.

Let's see. High usage, High efficiency vs high usage, medium efficiency. I think I'll take the more efficient player, since efficiency and not volume is what helps you win games.

Paul George has good potential, but he's not anywhere in the ball park when it comes to efficiency. He's got a TS% of 53% on a USG% of 23. So, he's a moderately efficient, moderate usage player. I'll still take the high efficiency, high usage guy over him.

Dwyane Wade is broken down and is no longer a top shooting guard.

You overrate efficiency moreso than impact.

For me impact>efficiency>usage

talent<skill<athleticism

Harden is an average impact, extremely high usage and efficiency player.

The Rockets are a better team when Harden is not on the court. His impact on the game is average. While he outproduces his opponent greatly, he does more harm on a game to game bases than good.

Kobe is a high impact, extremely high usage and med efficiency player.

Kobe team is better with him then without him and he outproduces his opponents greatly.

You are using your own opinion of Wade because if it was just about numbers like you been doing, Wade>>Harden by a country mile and you know it. .528 to .500 efg to Harden.

George team is much better with him on the court than without him. Geroge may not greatly outproduce his opponent but his impact on the game is higher because he bring a lot more value to the table than scoring which is mainly what Harden does.

[NBASupes]

The midrange shot is the worst shot in basketball. The average FG% on a mid range jump shot is around 41%. You don't have to shoot three point shots very well to be able to outscore a 41% midrange shooter.

It's is the hardest shot in the NBA today because of length, quickness and the complexity of defenses today. Which is why Phil Jackson and other coaches are a proponent for making the court longer.

[NBASupes]

James Harden is the new Blake Griffin. An overrated loser who doesn't really help his team win if he is not playing his game. I can see why OKC bring him off the bench and traded him. You will not be able to replace his efficiency and scoring but you can replace his production without missing a beat if Westbrook, Ibaka, and Durant is healthy.

[NBASupes]

I don't see the flaws. He attacks the basket and shoots threes. 67% of his FGA's are either at the rim or behind the three point line. That's as close to perfect as you get. If you add in shots within 10 feet of the basket, 83% of his shots come either within 10 feet of the rim or behind the three point line. That's how I would want every player on the team to shoot.

You do not see the defensive flaws? The horrible off ball and PnR defense, the epic lapses on defense. He is basically Jamal when defending out there. Then his game is threes, slash, foul and repeat with little change in variation. If he is your best SG in the NBA. The position of SG in the NBA is a bigger joke than the center position the year after Yao retired.

It amazes me that you either don't see it or refuse to see it. You keep going on about 83% of his shots being what everyone is saying it is.

I want to say sorry to Blake. Even Blake is superior in comparison to Harden in terms of overall impact.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Leadership

[AHF]

Bad comparisons. Harden's weakness is his defense. No one has been talking about defense. If you took Paul George's defense and combined it with Harden's offense, you would have a player that is MUCH better than either Harden or George (or Wade or Kobe). If you use TS% as your primary metric, the dream offensive team for last season is: Chris Paul / Stephen Curry (top ts% among PGs scoring 15 ppg or more) - note Parker is basically tied with CurryJames Harden / Dwayne Wade (top ts% among SGs scoring 15 ppg or more) - note Kobe is basically tied with WadeKevin Durant / Lebron James (top ts% among SFs scoring 15 ppg or more)Blake Griffin / Al Horford (top ts% among PFs scoring 15 ppg or more with 8+ rpg)Dwight Howard / Nikola Petrovic (top ts% among centers scoring 15 ppg or more with 8+ rpg) That is without considering defense but that is a pretty good starting point to layer defense onto that group. Once I layer defense on for total game, Harden comes off the bench; Griffin is dropped from the team in favor of Duncan (also a top ts% PF/C); and not too much else changes. I don't know how you rate "impact" offensively outside of scoring, passing, turnovers and efficiency of scoring but for pure scoring impact (which I view fundamentally as points x ts% with floor spacing/system layered in), no SG was close to Harden last season other than Kobe who had one of his most efficient seasons in his entire career and Wade who didn't match either player offensively but offers more defensively than Harden (when healthy).

[NBASupes]

Bad comparisons.

Harden's weakness is his defense. No one has been talking about defense.

If you took Paul George's defense and combined it with Harden's offense, you would have a player that is MUCH better than either Harden or George (or Wade or Kobe).

If you use TS% as your primary metric, the dream offensive team for last season is:

Chris Paul / Stephen Curry (top ts% among PGs scoring 15 ppg or more) - note Parker is basically tied with Curry

James Harden / Dwayne Wade (top ts% among SGs scoring 15 ppg or more) - note Kobe is basically tied with Wade

Kevin Durant / Lebron James (top ts% among SFs scoring 15 ppg or more)

Blake Griffin / Al Horford (top ts% among PFs scoring 15 ppg or more with 8+ rpg)

Dwight Howard / Nikola Petrovic (top ts% among centers scoring 15 ppg or more with 8+ rpg)

That is without considering defense but that is a pretty good starting point to layer defense onto that group. Once I layer defense on for total game, Harden comes off the bench; Griffin is dropped from the team in favor of Duncan (also a top ts% PF/C); and not too much else changes.

I don't know how you rate "impact" offensively outside of scoring, passing, turnovers and efficiency of scoring but for pure scoring impact (which I view fundamentally as points x ts% with floor spacing/system layered in), no SG was close to Harden last season other than Kobe who had one of his most efficient seasons in his entire career and Wade who didn't match either player offensively but offers more defensively than Harden (when healthy).

There are numerous ways. I will example how to find it offensively tonight. It's hard because stats do not tell the story.

I will create a post based on what to look for when building a championship team.

[AHF]

There are numerous ways. I will example how to find it offensively tonight. It's hard because stats do not tell the story.

I will create a post based on what to look for when building a championship team.

George is not a stud offensive player. Stats tell the story very well on that. He shot less than 42% from the floor and scored at a modest .531 TS% (Gerald Henderson, Jeremy Lin, JR Smith territory). George had a lower assist % and a higher TO% than Harden. Harden had 9.8 offensive win shares to 2.7 offensive win shares for George. So Harden scored more, scored more efficiently per shot, passed better, turned the ball over less (when adjusted for pace), and actually led his less talented team to a similar record (49 wins for IND to 45 wins for HOU).

George isn't in Harden's realm offensively anymore than Harden is in his defensively.

Edited June 12, 2013 by AHF