ESPN WARP Rankings - Where are the Hawks?

[Plainview1981]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ellismo01.html

Take a look at how awful the win shares are for Monta Ellis.

One year his WS were 1.3 and another year in the 2's. Yuck.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Hotlanta1981

[gurpilo]

I know about that stats but there is one fact, Monta Ellis is a star on the league and Lou is a 6th man at best, he is a better offensive player than Lou and better also defensively although he is not good, but the fact is that Lou is a defensive liability.

He has carried the offensive load in all teams he has played and they were bad teams, that also affects your WS, now in Dallas we will see what kind of player he is but I'm sure he will take less forced shots and we will see again the kind of shooting percentage he had at GS and we will see what kind of WS he has, I like what Dallas has done so far.

[Plainview1981]

Dallas is a team made of leftovers that other teams mostly don't want.

Monta Ellis is no star.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Hotlanta1981

[gurpilo]

I just don't agree with that, a guy capable of scoring more than 20 ppg consistently with FG% 0,450 are not usually found. The last 2 seasons he has gone down a little bit but he will find his touch again.

[AHF]

Monta Ellis is an albatross. If you gave me the option to have Ellis or Lou at the same salary, I would pick Lou. I can build a championship team with Lou playing a significant role in the rotation. I can't build a championship team that starts a ball-hogging inefficient chucker like Monta Ellis who also sucks defensively. He presents all the problems of Allen Iverson but isn't as good (and I didn't want Iverson for the same team building concerns).

[gurpilo]

You are free to have your own opinion but for all of you wanting Lou over Ellis at the same price... I would like you to go out and check comments, because out there you will not find much supporters to that idea.

[Bahamut]

Crack cocaine.

[AHF]

[gurpilo]

Correct me if I'm wrong but that does not make Lou better isn't it?

Just don't tell me, call Cuban or Ferry or Kings, Bobcats, Kings, Nuggets, Knicks, Bulls, Spurs, Suns GM, all expressed interest on signing Ellis, I don't remember much teams interested on Lou...

[gurpilo]

In fact downgrading him by comparison to Lou Williams in fact suggest that Lou is considered a worst player which is exactly what I was stating.

[AHF]

Correct me if I'm wrong but that does not make Lou better isn't it?

Just don't tell me, call Cuban or Ferry or Kings, Bobcats, Kings, Nuggets, Knicks, Bulls, Spurs, Suns GM, all expressed interest on signing Ellis, I don't remember much teams interested on Lou...

Being a dingier version of another player is a bad thing. It means you are a worse version. That was in the context of the SI article where they said letting him walk was the right move. That means negative value. Mark Jackson likewise implied he was addition by subtraction so you figure he only views Monta as a better asset if he views Lou Williams as an even more negative value player. Since Lou plays under control and in a more limited role, I find that hard to believe.

For other Lou comparisons, the ESPN panelists had him as being the same value as Lou (1 with exact same mid-level; 2 above slightly above; 2 slightly below).

The Dallas Blog by ESPN said he was a bad signing at 3 years and $25M but didn't compare him directly to Lou. Haberstroh said he needs to be a bench player but didn't compare him directly. Considering that Lou is a more efficient bench player, I am having a hard time seeing that as a bad comparison.

All in all, there are lots of people who are highly critical of Monta and for good reason. Implying that no one else would view Monta as less desirable than Lou doesn't seem to have much support when some people think teams are better off not having him.

I will concede that there is a range of opinion on Monta that includes people who think he has potential if he can stop shooting his team in the foot with his...well...shooting and D. I just think those people are wrong - not that they don't exist.

[AHF]

In fact downgrading him by comparison to Lou Williams in fact suggest that Lou is considered a worst player which is exactly what I was stating.

You don't seem to know what the word dingier means. If I have a car and someone says it is a dingier version of another car, that is suggesting that my car is worse than the other car.

Saying Kobe is a dingier version of MJ means that MJ is better than Kobe.

[AHF]

This was a fun little read on Monta Ellis. Short version: Monta Ellis wins over Josh Smith in competition for worst mid-range player in the NBA.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/68279/the-2012-13-courtvision-awards-the-bricklayers

[gurpilo]

You don't seem to know what the word dingier means. If I have a car and someone says it is a dingier version of another car, that is suggesting that my car is worse than the other car.

Saying Kobe is a dingier version of MJ means that MJ is better than Kobe.

Understand what dingier means, thanks for explaining... it's just that he needs to compare Ellis to a bench player like Lou or Terry to show how much he downgrades him, Ellis is a starter in more than half of the teams, Lou is a bench player on all teams, that is a fact and we can be arguing all day but that will not change.

If you want to downgrade Kobe you would not compare him to MJ, you will compare him to Paul Pierce, the important thing is not the word is the player you compare with, that does mean Pierce is better than Kobe? No, you just need to compare Kobe to a worst player to show that you rank him lower than the majority.

Edited August 5, 2013 by gurpilo

[AHF]

Understand what dingier means, thanks for explaining... it's just that he needs to compare Ellis to a bench player like Lou or Terry to show how much he downgrades him, Ellis is a starter in more than half of the teams, Lou is a bench player on all teams, that is a fact and we can be arguing all day but that will not change.

If you want to downgrade Kobe you would not compare him to MJ, you will compare him to Paul Pierce, the important thing is not the word is the player you compare with, that does mean Pierce is better than Kobe? No, you just need to compare Kobe to a worst player to show that you rank him lower than the majority.

Saying he is a dingier version of Lou Williams means he is worse than Lou Williams. There is no other way to read that.

I find it amazing that anyone could read this and think it is speaking positively of Ellis' value relative to Lou Williams:

a dingier Lou Williams or a range-less Jason Terry

Edited August 5, 2013 by AHF