Discussion from game thread about Hawks attendance

[lethalweapon3]

BTW last nights reported attendance was 10k. In Josh Smith's return game to Atlanta, the guy who many LOVED and many LOATHED, we had our average 13k attendance, which is still pathetic and 2nd worst in the league. When we played the Clippers with Chris Paul and Blake Griffin we had 12k in attendance. Both of those were Wednesday night games against teams and stars much brighter than the Kings and still there was very little difference in the sad, sad numbers.

Smoove unfortunately has to settle for Liked and Despised. Dunk contest trophy comment applies to Smoove here, too. And you too, Kia Jumper.

~lw3

[Admin]

Smoove unfortunately has to settle for Liked and Despised. Dunk contest trophy comment applies to Smoove here, too. And you too, Kia Jumper.

~lw3

Chris Paul and Blake Griffin are in the top 10 in NBA jersey sales for this year so they are about as big as you're going to get, outside of Miami, of a fan draw for non-Hawks fans.

[lethalweapon3]

We won over 50 games and took the Celtics to 7 games and were always contenders. If your argument is that we have to win an NBA championship to get fans in the seats then that says all you need to know about the fans in Atlanta.

You have to win AND look good doing it. "Taking a team to 7 games" only to get blown out in Boston every time won't cut it here. If you lose playoff series by epic, history-making margins to teams with the Dwights and LeBrons on them, it says all you need to know about what those fans in Atlanta are going to do. In fact, most of those fans that don't come already saw that conclusion coming.

~lw3

Chris Paul and Blake Griffin are in the top 10 in NBA jersey sales for this year so they are about as big as you're going to get, outside of Miami, of a fan draw for non-Hawks fans.

You can buy a jersey without ever going to the game. (I'm looking at you, South DeKalb Mall.)

~lw3

[Admin]

You have to win AND look good doing it. "Taking a team to 7 games" only to get blown out in Boston every time won't cut it here. If you lose playoff series by epic, history-making margins to teams with the Dwights and LeBrons on them, it says all you need to know about what those fans in Atlanta are going to do. In fact, most of those fans that don't come already saw that conclusion coming.

~lw3

You can buy a jersey without ever going to the game. (I'm looking at you, South DeKalb Mall.)

~lw3

Come on man you are really coming up with excuses here. Does that sit right with you if that's what you honestly believe? Does that say anything good about the fans in the Atlanta area that you have to win AND look good doing so to draw fans? I mean really?

[Guest]

So $7 difference is the reason we are down 2,000 fans per game.... riight. And even still last year's 15k were still pitiful. Atlanta hasn't had attendance even hit an average of 17k since at least before 2001 so what's the excuse there?

Did you seriously not read the last paragraph in my post you were responding to? Read it, because I addressed that specific issue of posters misinterpreting what I said. You misinterpreted it exactly as I described. That is one example of how I know you aren't taking time to read my posts on this issue.

Why not spend some actual time digesting what has already been said on the board about this exact topic? You responded within 4 minutes one time to a post that I spent at least a solid 30 minutes on. I combed through archived threads to get the most important points out from what has already been addressed. I tried to not have my arguments within there, if you want to look at my arguments then a good starting point is here for a thread that went on for 8 pages. I could rehash other arguments I have made on this board where I back up my statements with data, but why should I? You won't take the time to read through it and are going to dismiss it without much basis. You will go back to your original unfounded opinion of "these fans suck" even though you haven't taken the time to examine an alternative explanation.

I'm done with this. Enjoy spouting off about a narrative that isn't true.

Edited December 19, 2013 by hawksfanatic

[lethalweapon3]

Come on man you are really coming up with excuses here. Does that sit right with you if that's what you honestly believe? Does that say anything good about the fans in the Atlanta area that you have to win AND look good doing so to draw fans? I mean really?

That's just it. I'm not trying to say anything kind about Atlanta fans. We're the Honey Badger. There's nothing kind to say about the Honey Badger. But if your product relies on drawing Honey Badgers to see your product live and in person, rather than staying burrowed away in their dens, you'd better have one hell of a draw.

~lw3

[Admin]

That's just it. I'm not trying to say anything kind about Atlanta fans. We're the Honey Badger. There's nothing kind to say about the Honey Badger. But if your product relies on drawing Honey Badgers to see your product live and in person, rather than staying burrowed away in their dens, you'd better have one hell of a draw.

~lw3

Gotcha. I can agree with that, but I certainly don't have to like it.

[Admin]

Did you seriously not read the last paragraph in my post you were responding to? Read it, because I addressed that specific issue of posters misinterpreting what I said. You misinterpreted it exactly as I described. That is one example of how I know you aren't taking time to read my posts on this issue.

Why not spend some actual time digesting what has already been said on the board about this exact topic? You responded within 4 minutes one time to a post that I spent at least a solid 30 minutes on. I combed through archived threads to get the most important points out from what has already been addressed. I tried to not have my arguments within there, if you want to look at my arguments then a good starting point is here for a thread that went on for 8 pages. I could rehash other arguments I have made on this board where I back up my statements with data, but why should I? You won't take the time to read through it and are going to dismiss it without much basis. You will go back to your original unfounded opinion of "these fans suck" even though you haven't taken the time to examine an alternative explanation.

I'm done with this. Enjoy spouting off about a narrative that isn't true.

You can't go off and give an excuse and then put a disclaimer at the bottom that says hey if you respond and refute my one excuse then blah blah blah. Yes I read what you said but if you're going to use an excuse I'm going to refute it and I don't think a $7 difference in "fan experience" or whatever that site is about makes that much of a difference.

You are making the assumption that I haven't read those old threads before, but I have, multiple times. That's why it didn't take me long to respond to you because I knew you were using the same old tired excuses that didn't fly then and don't fly now.

There is no excuse for the Atlanta fans not to show up and support a quality product. None. The best you can do is what Lethal did and excuse their behavior because we aren't a championship team that has an exciting product. It's a sad excuse but at least it's a valid one.

[Guest]

God dammit, broke my ESPN ban on accident. Oh well. This is some relevant information. Check out the attendance numbers so far, in particular look at Road Attendance % by Team. Notice who is in last place?

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/sort/awayPct

Take a hint Kings announcers, you are going to see less full Arenas on the road more than any other team in the NBA. Your product stinks.

You can't go off and give an excuse and then put a disclaimer at the bottom that says hey if you respond and refute my one excuse then blah blah blah. Yes I read what you said but if you're going to use an excuse I'm going to refute it and I don't think a $7 difference in "fan experience" or whatever that site is about makes that much of a difference.

You are making the assumption that I haven't read those old threads before, but I have, multiple times. That's why it didn't take me long to respond to you because I knew you were using the same old tired excuses that didn't fly then and don't fly now.

There is no excuse for the Atlanta fans not to show up and support a quality product. None. The best you can do is what Lethal did and excuse their behavior because we aren't a championship team that has an exciting product. It's a sad excuse but at least it's a valid one.

Excuse? No. I am saying price is not the only reason. Yet, what did you assume I claimed was the reason for attendance drop? Oh. That is right. Price, even though I claimed it is not the only reason. Which would be a misinterpretation of what I said.

[Admin]

Just looked through the box score of every home game for us so far this year and we've had 1 really impressive showing by the crowd, 18k for our home opener against Toronto. It was against a bad team with nobody worth loving or loathing and it was on a Friday night, which does help attendance some vs a Wed night game, but still 18k fans showed up. Now that's impressive! Ticket prices were still the same, transportation was still the same, all of the external factors were still the same as they are for every other game and yet somehow we drew a very impressive crowd for Philips arena.

We won that game, went on the road and went 1-2 losing the 2 games by 2 points each, came home to face Orlando on a Saturday night and attendance was down to 15k. We won that game, went on the road and beat Charlotte, returned home to face the Knicks and on Wed and attendance was still up at 15k. We lost by 4 in that game and then the next home game, on Friday night against the Sixers only drew 12k fans and almost all of our home games since have been in that range. We had 2 games on the weekend against the Celtics and against the Mavs that brought in 15k but the weekday games only get between 10-12 on average and that includes a game on a Tuesday against the Thunder.

[Admin]

God dammit, broke my ESPN ban on accident. Oh well. This is some relevant information. Check out the attendance numbers so far, in particular look at Road Attendance % by Team. Notice who is in last place?

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/sort/awayPct

Take a hint Kings announcers, you are going to see less full Arenas on the road more than any other team in the NBA. Your product stinks.

Excuse? No. I am saying price is not the only reason. Yet, what did you assume I claimed was the reason for attendance drop? Oh. That is right. Price, even though I claimed it is not the only reason. Which would be a misinterpretation of what I said.

Yeah the Kings stink, but guess what we drew 12k to see the Thunder and 12k to see the Clippers. A whopping 2k more than the Kings.

I know you didn't say price was the only reason. But you did say that price is AN factor and I dispute that it is. So that's why I disputed the single point that you listed as a reason.

[Guest]

And also, tell me what's changed this year that we are DOWN 2,000 fans per game on average at home this year. What's changed?

Those 2000 people were Josh Smith fans not Hawks fan. The basketball fans who live in Atlanta determined at the start of the season that this team would not be exciting because they hear it on National TV, even local radio (790) when they talk about the Hawks sound so disdainful. It's like Hawks won last night but who cares. People hear what the Hawks are instead of actually watching the games and making their own determination. Edited December 19, 2013 by JayBirdHawk

[Admin]

Those 2000 people were Josh Smith fans not Hawks fan. The basketball fans who live in Atlanta determined at the start of the season that this team would not be exciting because they hear it on National TV, even local radio (790) when they talk about the Hawks sound so disdainful. It's like Hawks won last night but who cares.

People hear what the Hawks are instead of actually watching the games and making their own determination.

We drew over 18k fans in home opener and that was against Toronto and there was no Josh Smith. Plus in Josh's return we only drew I think it was 13k, so right at average. I would have expected a lot of his old fans or non-fans to show up and cheer or boo him but it didn't seem to make any difference.

[lethalweapon3]

Just looked through the box score of every home game for us so far this year and we've had 1 really impressive showing by the crowd, 18k for our home opener against Toronto. It was against a bad team with nobody worth loving or loathing and it was on a Friday night, which does help attendance some vs a Wed night game, but still 18k fans showed up. Now that's impressive! Ticket prices were still the same, transportation was still the same, all of the external factors were still the same as they are for every other game and yet somehow we drew a very impressive crowd for Philips arena.

We won that game, went on the road and went 1-2 losing the 2 games by 2 points each, came home to face Orlando on a Saturday night and attendance was down to 15k. We won that game, went on the road and beat Charlotte, returned home to face the Knicks and on Wed and attendance was still up at 15k. We lost by 4 in that game and then the next home game, on Friday night against the Sixers only drew 12k fans and almost all of our home games since have been in that range. We had 2 games on the weekend against the Celtics and against the Mavs that brought in 15k but the weekday games only get between 10-12 on average and that includes a game on a Tuesday against the Thunder.

Hawks marketing does a decent job drawing some extra on-the-fence fans to the game, if you can give them a few months to prep for it. Season openers are also prime candidates for ticket giveaways.

Getting a decent winning streak going sure wouldn't hurt, but as the 1997-98 Hawks will tell you, it doesn't guarantee booties in the seats around here unless MJ or the Knicks are coming.

~lw3

[Admin]

Hawks marketing does a decent job drawing some extra on-the-fence fans to the game, if you can give them a few months to prep for it. Season openers are also prime candidates for ticket giveaways.

Getting a decent winning streak going sure wouldn't hurt, but as the 1997-98 Hawks will tell you, it doesn't guarantee booties in the seats around here unless MJ or the Knicks are coming.

~lw3

Good points! Doesn't make it any less sad that we have to give away hundreds or more tickets and market the heck out of a game to get fans in the seats though.

★★★Houston has called off all Asik trade talks★★★

Hey we're having an argument over here quit trying to distract!

[Bahamut]

Sigh. This is the type of post that is typical of the narrative of bad fans in Atlanta. This type of post has been beaten down time and time again on this board with actual facts about how Atlanta is set up and what we should expect. Examples? I know Niremetal has discussed the transit and transplant issues relevant to Atlanta multiple times:

http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/347346-is-this-a-championship-level-fan-base/page-2#entry449848

http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/350373-hawks-being-too-passive-in-free-agent-market/#entry468461

^Those have to do with the ineptitude of Atlanta's Urban/Regional Planning that contribute to the awful traffic to the game. Let me ask you Dolf, when was the last time you spent time on the Connector to get to the Williams St Exit for the game? Or maybe you are coming from the other side and need to get off at Central Ave? Or possibly you are coming from I-20 and get off at the Spring Street Exit? Whatever the case may be, all the routes have horrible traffic. Do you know this? Or are you just taking a guess from Houston? This isn't meant as an insult, this is meant to illustrate that you do not understand the costs since you haven't driven in Atlanta to go to a game in Philips Arena.

Then there have been those that debunk the market size myth:

http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/343713-if-we-dont-make-a-move-were-giving-up-on-this-season/page-4#entry431604

This exact scenario was also touched on by lw3 a few years ago:

http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/343713-if-we-dont-make-a-move-were-giving-up-on-this-season/page-5#entry431734

I mean, all this stuff has been touched on. I am not even quoting my own material on this matter where I really rail after the pricing that we have for tickets as well as the expected demand and what the correct response should be. All of this fan behavior is explainable, where as a story that claims our fans "suck" is a story that *somehow* our fans perform worse than expected. We don't perform worse than expected. Our fans don't suck. And complaining about them not showing up is lazy and is just like what the A$G did a few years ago of complaining about our fans. The A$G seem to be changing on this from when Gearon Junior pulled the:

http://blogs.ajc.com/hawks/2010/05/19/atlanta-hawks-why-j-j-may-be-more-worth-more-than-you-think-to-the-hawks/

Solid post on all accounts. And A$G used the same lazy argument to cover their asses when they sold the Thrashers. People that live here use that same lazy argument, especially in sports media. The party-town factor is something that only people who live here (and intown) would fully understand about Atlanta. Plus, in today's NBA, it's all about stars to generate walk-up fan interest. "Just being a fan of basketball" is more of a Midwest/New England/blue-collar thing, especially in cities that have sniffed the Eastern Conference Finals, well, ever.

[Bahamut]

Another issue are all the bums. They don't bother me. I graduated from GSU, in downtown, and am used to them. They hang out in the CNN Center and take up tables in the food court as they beg. For those who don't live in Atlanta, but follow the team. The CNN Center is connected to Phillips Arena and is where a tone of fans go for food and drinks before the game. The bums there scare people off and make them feel uncomfortable. I actually gave some money to an old man last night and gave another guy a dinner. I feel for them but they hurt image of downtown. You don't have this issue in Charlotte at all.

I used to work in Charlotte, and the area around the train terminal (i.e. directly across the street from TWC Arena) was full of panhandlers. I saw panhandlers all around E. Trade, in fact.

[Bahamut]

I think it is more likely that the A$G pushed for this game to not be shown than Fox SportsSouth declining coverage of the game in favor of showing something else in their inventory. We generally have 3-5 games not broadcast and mid-week December games against a crappy team usually get the "don't broadcast!" vote for SportSouth.

It would make sense for them, but it sucks for us. There was practically nothing on last night besides a game on ESPN, and local sports fans could have stumbled upon this great Hawks game by chance and given the hometeam a second look.

As far as price, which isn't the only factor as you said, the Hawks should have flexible pricing like the Braves (f*ck them, btw) used last year. That way, less compelling matchups would simply cost less from the start. Tickets in my usual seat were nearly half-price for games vs. weak baseball teams. Since I tend to prefer Hawks games against no-name teams just to avoid the bandwagoners/hipsters/nuthuggers, I'd get to many more games if these matchups had their prices slashed. I paid $90 each for the homeopener against the Raptors, and based on the prices, I may not get to another game this season (unless I make it to London).

Speaking of the Raptors, I made it to a Raptors-Nuggets game while I was in Toronto for Falcons-Bills, and it was a great crowd for a Sunday afternoon (the Maple Leafs had a road game the night before and weren't in town). In some towns, having a popular team, or a winning team (even if it was decades ago), is enough to win and maintain enough goodwill with the fanbase. Moral victories like taking big name teams to 7 games and playoff berths (when half of the NBA makes the playoffs) doesn't amount to much in a town with one title in 50 years and 1,000's of options any night of the week, especially during the holidays.

Whether a factor is an excuse or a solid explanation is simply a matter of whether it supports or undermines your point of view. I know Atlantans aren't bad sports because I am an Atlantan and actually know Atlantans, unlike almost everyone that I hear bashing our fans, and that includes many people that call themselves "Atlantans."

Edited December 19, 2013 by Bahamut

[Admin]

It would make sense for them, but it sucks for us. There was practically nothing on last night besides a game on ESPN, and local sports fans could have stumbled upon this great Hawks game by chance and given the hometeam a second look.

As far as price, which isn't the only factor as you said, the Hawks should have flexible pricing like the Braves (f*ck them, btw) used last year. That way, less compelling matchups would simply cost less from the start. Tickets in my usual seat were nearly half-price for games vs. weak baseball teams. Since I tend to prefer Hawks games against no-name teams just to avoid the bandwagoners/hipsters/nuthuggers, I'd get to many more games if these matchups had their prices slashed. I paid $90 each for the homeopener against the Raptors, and based on the prices, I may not get to another game this season (unless I make it to London).

Speaking of the Raptors, I made it to a Raptors-Nuggets game while I was in Toronto for Falcons-Bills, and it was a great crowd for a Sunday afternoon (the Maple Leafs had a road game the night before and weren't in town). In some towns, having a popular team, or a winning team (even if it was decades ago), is enough to win and maintain enough goodwill with the fanbase. Moral victories like taking big name teams to 7 games and playoff berths (when half of the NBA makes the playoffs) doesn't amount to much in a town with one title in 50 years and 1,000's of options any night of the week, especially during the holidays.

Whether a factor is an excuse or a solid explanation is simply a matter of whether it supports or undermines your point of view. I know Atlantans aren't bad sports because I am an Atlantan and actually know Atlantans, unlike almost everyone that I hear bashing our fans, and that includes many people that call themselves "Atlantans."

Didn't someone (coach maybe?) say that tickets against lesser teams are always cheaper? I could have sworn I read that recently.

[benhillboy]

It makes it a little easier to stomach for me when I look at the Heats fanbase. They have arguably the best team in the league for 3 years running and they might as well open the doors to the arena at the 8:00 mark of the fourth quarter. They're awfully late to the start of halves and are pretty disinterested, disengaged, and unknowledgable. Just a pseudo-Laker crowd with less money and a bit creepier. I wanna think if we were a true contender, we wouldn't have these discussions. We aren't New York where there are millions of people attached to the history regardless of how bad the team is, and we aren't OKC where there isn't much to do at night. I certainly don't expect the average sports fan or Atlanta resident to get excited about high assist totals and fringe All-Stars. I do, but I have strange affinities for lots of sh@t.

Edited December 19, 2013 by benhillboy