Seattle So Very Stupid

[AHF]

One interesting aspect of this to me is New England's clock management.  NE should have called TO with a minute left by my thought as a I was sitting watching the game.  To not call timeout gave Seattle total control over the clock.  They could keep the time and maximize their remaining 3 plays, they could run the clock down and ensure that NE didn't have a chance to do anything with the ball, etc.  To me, that put Seattle in the position of being able to comfortably run the ball all it wanted due to its timeout and to simultaneously bleed some of the opportunity for NE to come back off the clock.

 

By not calling the TO, Belicheck put Seattle on the spot to make the call on 2nd down.  With a timeout and more time to discuss, someone probably talks the offensive coordinator out of passing the ball and even if they run the same play the players get instruction on making sure they run the pick, throwing the ball away if the guy isn't picked, etc.  Even though the play was obvious and shouldn't have been missed and certainly couldn't be counted on being missed, by not calling the TO Belichek put more pressure on Seattle to make a mistake and they did it.  

 

Even though I thought he should maximize the clock and keep 40 seconds or so to counterstrike, his clock management arguably won them the game.  

[HawkItus]

Wasn't pass interference, DB and WR have equal rights to the ball @AHF

[AHF]

Wasn't pass interference, DB and WR have equal rights to the ball @AHF

The way the NFL calls pass interference that could easily have been called if it wasn't the end of the game.  The fact that you say the DB and WR have equal rights to the ball is not at all the way the game is called and I think you know that.  If that play happens in the middle of the field in the 2nd quarter, I think there is a high risk they get tagged for pass interference since he collides with the receiver before the ball gets there.  

 

Look at the :38 and :46 second marks of this:

 

 

Pass interference gets called a lot for ticky-tack contact as or just before the ball gets there.  This contact was hard enough to actually reverse the receiver's momentum and take him completely out of the play.  In contrast, the game is usually called to let the offensive players do all kinds of grabbing and pushing off.  So the real world version of things is that it is not equal rights between the DB and WR.  It is a much tighter collar on the DB than the WR.

 

So I am saying that I wouldn't fault a Seattle fan for griping about the fact that their receiver was contact before the DB touched the ball and that the contact took him out of the play, however my point was fundamentally that you can't rely on getting a call at that point in the game and that spot on the field.  By putting that risk in the equation when it was totally unnecessary, Seattle made a huge mistake.

[AHF]

I will further add this if coaches believed this was a legit way of defending passes, you would start seeing DBs knocking WRs on their @#$ on every play just before the ball arrives but they don't because they know it will get called for pass interference too high a % of the time to go with that strategy.  If you could collide with the receiver every play before either player touches the ball as long as you tried to catch the ball that would revolutionize pass defense and produce turnovers a good, what, 25% of the time?  Nobody will coach to this tactic, though, because everyone knows that play can't be replicated during a normal game with that result.

 

This was a one-off play that nobody can count on but one with a huge upside for NE (they win the game) versus almost no downside (a good chance the ref won't call the contact in that situation and half a yard penalty if they do).  Smart for NE, but not sustainable or viable for most situations.

[HawkItus]

@AHF there is a difference between going for the ball and defending a pass:

 

Actions that constitute defensive pass interference include but are not limited to: 

(a) Contact by a defender who is not playing the ball and such contact restricts the receiver’s opportunity to make the catch. 

(b) Playing through the back of a receiver in an attempt to make a play on the ball. 

© Grabbing a receiver’s arm(s) in such a manner that restricts his opportunity to catch a pass. 

(d) Extending an arm across the body of a receiver thus restricting his ability to catch a pass, regardless of whether the defender is playing the ball. 

(e) Cutting off the path of a receiver by making contact with him without playing the ball. 

(f) Hooking a receiver in an attempt to get to the ball in such a manner that it causes the receiver’s body to turn prior to the ball arriving. 

 

 

Look he is playing the ball

 

[macdaddy]

isn't contact with the receiver viewed differently within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage? 

[AHF]

He hits the receiver before the ball hits his hands.  That is normally pass interference.  Refs don't give the DB an equal shot at the ball normally.  Butler stopped the receiver's momentum preventing him from making a play on the ball before Butler actually touched the ball.  That is very dangerous and if it was allowed on every play then coaches would absolutely start having guys do that every play because even if you got penalized 75% of the time the huge number of turnovers you would generate would be well worth it.

 

 

If this was always seen as legal, the safety could come flying into a lot of plays and ram the receiver while trying to catch the ball all in the name of two guys just going for the ball.  Instead, DBs contort themselves to avoid that kind of contact while making a play on the ball.  It isn't because they don't want to catch the ball, it is because they know contact usually draws a flag.

Edited February 4, 2015 by AHF

[AHF]

isn't contact with the receiver viewed differently within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage? 

 

Not while the ball is in the air.  It is contact before the pass is made that can happen within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage.  Guys routinely grapple with eachother before separating from the line of scrimmage but the ball isn't in the air.  On a screen play, the defender can't use that same contact on the WR while the pass is coming to the WR.

[HawkItus]

He hits the receiver before the ball hits his hands.  That is normally pass interference.  Refs don't give the DB an equal shot at the ball normally.  Butler stopped the receiver's momentum preventing him from making a play on the ball before Butler actually touched the ball.  That is very dangerous and if it was allowed on every play then coaches would absolutely start having guys do that every play because even if you got penalized 75% of the time the huge number of turnovers you would generate would be well worth it.

 

 

If this was always seen as legal, the safety could come flying into a lot of plays and ram the receiver while trying to catch the ball all in the name of two guys just going for the ball.  Instead, DBs contort themselves to avoid that kind of contact while making a play on the ball.  It isn't because they don't want to catch the ball, it is because they know contact usually draws a flag.

I disagree, he had already established his position and was playing the ball.  He is in front of the receiver.  I have seen many interceptions like this not called Pass Interference.  Look at the rules.  They clearly state a right to the ball and also hedge that "contact" when not playing the ball is the main initiator.  

[AHF]

The rule:

 

It is pass interference by either team when any player movement beyond the line of scrimmage significantly hinders the progress of an eligible player of such player’s opportunity to catch the ball. Offensive pass interference rules apply from the time the ball is snapped until the ball is touched. Defensive pass interference rules apply from the time the ball is thrown until the ball is touched.

 

Actions that do not constitute pass interference include but are not limited to: 

(a) Incidental contact by a defender’s hands, arms, or body when both players are competing for the ball, or neither player is looking for the ball. If there is any question whether contact is incidental, the ruling shall be no interference.

 

The reason no one runs this as a normal defense is that it is generally not viewed as incidental to knock a WR off his feet and it usually is considered to significantly hinder a WR when he is knocked off his feet.  The WR goes from a 95+% chance of catching the ball to a 0% chance of catching the ball - a significant hindrance to the opportunity to catch the ball.

 

In theory, the DB can move on the ball just like the WR but that isn't ordinarily how it plays out.  If both guys are moving twoards spot X where the ball is then the DB can't run there and truck the WR and then catch the ball.  DBs ordinarily try to reach an arm around the WR to knock the ball away and to avoid contact or try to get in front of the WR so they can catch or knock the ball away to avoid contact precisely because the rule is not ordinarily interpreted to allow the defender to knock someone off their feet like Butler's did.  

 

 

[HawkItus]

The rule:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actions that do not constitute pass interference include but are not limited to: 

(a) Incidental contact by a defender’s hands, arms, or body when both players are competing for the ball, or neither player is looking for the ball. If there is any question whether contact is incidental, the ruling shall be no interference.

 

The reason no one runs this as a normal defense is that it is generally not viewed as incidental to knock a WR off his feet and it usually is considered to significantly hinder a WR when he is knocked off his feet.  The WR goes from a 95+% chance of catching the ball to a 0% chance of catching the ball - a significant hindrance to the opportunity to catch the ball.

 

In theory, the DB can move on the ball just like the WR but that isn't ordinarily how it plays out.  If both guys are moving twoards spot X where the ball is then the DB can't run there and truck the WR and then catch the ball.  DBs ordinarily try to reach an arm around the WR to knock the ball away and to avoid contact or try to get in front of the WR so they can catch or knock the ball away to avoid contact precisely because the rule is not ordinarily interpreted to allow the defender to knock someone off their feet like Butler's did.  

 

 

I stand by the NFL rules which state

 

 

 

Actions that constitute defensive pass interference include but are not limited to: 

(a) Contact by a defender who is not playing the ball and such contact restricts the receiver’s opportunity to make the catch. 

(b) Playing through the back of a receiver in an attempt to make a play on the ball. 

(e) Cutting off the path of a receiver by making contact with him without playing the ball. 

 

Just because it is not consistently called correctly(which I do not concede is true)  does not mean this call was in error.  Furthermore:

 

Actions that do not constitute pass interference include but are not limited to: 

(a) Incidental contact by a defender’s hands, arms, or body when both players are competing for the ball, or neither player is looking for the ball. If there is any question whether contact is incidental, the ruling shall be no interference. 

(b) Inadvertent tangling of feet when both players are playing the ball or neither player is playing the ball. 

© Contact that would normally be considered pass interference, but the pass is clearly uncatchable by the involved players. 

(d) Laying a hand on a receiver that does not restrict the receiver in an attempt to make a play on the ball. 

(e) Contact by a defender who has gained position on a receiver in an attempt to catch the ball. 

 

 

I think e is clearly shown in these photos.

Edited February 4, 2015 by HawkItus

[AHF]

I have seen many interceptions like this not called Pass Interference.  

 

Show me some clips.  I have seen tons of pass interference calls over the last 30 years of watching football on MUCH less contact than this.  

 

 

 

Etc.

[HawkItus]

Show me some clips.  I have seen tons of pass interference calls over the last 30 years of watching football on MUCH less contact than this.  

 

 

 

Etc.

They were not playing the ball.  In a trailing position with no clear access to the ball these will always be called.  

[AHF]

I stand by the NFL rules which state

 

Just because it is not consistently called correctly(which I do not concede is true)  does not mean this call was in error.  Furthermore:

 

I think e is clearly shown in these photos.

He absolutely did not have position on the receiver.  Both guys moved to the same spot at the same time.  The receiver was blindsided while the other geared up and hit the receiver.  As the pass was being thrown, neither player had position.

 

They were not playing the ball.  In a trailing position with no clear access to the ball these will always be called.  

 

You and I are not going to agree on this and the proof will be in the pudding.  Start showing me defenses utilizing this technique of playing the ball and knocking the receiver on his #$# and then you can persuade me.  

[AHF]

They were not playing the ball.  In a trailing position with no clear access to the ball these will always be called.  

No they won't.  Are you seriously trying to convince me that there is anything about pass interference that is "always" called?  

 

#$*&#  there is a degree of contact equal to those clips on 40-50 plays every game.  Only a very small fraction of plays with that kind of minimal contact get called.

 

I could pull a dozen youtube clips of plays like that with minimal contact that get called for pass interference and plays with more contact that don't get called.

 

What I can't find is on any given Sunday is dozens of plays where the receiver and DB make a play on the ball, the DB knocks the WR on his rear, and nothing gets called.  DBs work very hard to avoid that kind of contact before they are in a position to touch the ball.

[HawkItus]

He absolutely did not have position on the receiver.  Both guys moved to the same spot at the same time.  The receiver was blindsided while the other geared up and hit the receiver.  As the pass was being thrown, neither player had position.

 

 

You and I are not going to agree on this and the proof will be in the pudding.  Start showing me defenses utilizing this technique of playing the ball and knocking the receiver on his #$# and then you can persuade me.  

I can agree to disagree, because there is no way to so show you a counter argument better than Butler's interception and the resulting photos.  The examples you showed are all different circumstances that clearly are against the rules.  A better proposition is for you to show me where that same play was called a pass interference against the defender.

[HawkItus]

PI.pdfPI2.pdf

 

These are screen captures where the player obviously grabs an arm and impedes. They aren't playing the ball.  Classic PI.  Butler did none of this, had position, and played the ball.  I really don't see the difficulty of this.  

[Dejay]

I can tell you from experience officiating games that we're instructed to never throw the flag late in the game unless the infraction is so obliviously clear that you just have to. No official wants to ever be known to affect the outcome of a game because of his whistle or flag; hence, the term 'let the players decide the outcome of the game, not you' mantra we're all instructed to follow. Even if it possibly look to be DPI (defensive pass interference) or defensive holding, an official will likely keep that flag in his pocket if the defender is making a play on the ball.

 

If that wasn't the case, Navarro Bowman would've been called for DPI on Roddy White on that 4th and 4 play late in the 2012 NFC Title game because he all but put White in the cobra clutch while appearing to go for the ball.  

[AHF]

I can tell you from experience officiating games that we're instructed to never throw the flag late in the game unless the infraction is so obliviously clear that you just have to. No official wants to ever be known to affect the outcome of a game because of his whistle or flag; hence, the term 'let the players decide the outcome of the game, not you' mantra we're all instructed to follow. Even if it possibly look to be DPI (defensive pass interference) or defensive holding, an official will likely keep that flag in his pocket if the defender is making a play on the ball.

 

If that wasn't the case, Navarro Bowman would've been called for DPI on Roddy White on that 4th and 4 play late in the 2012 NFC Title game because he all but put White in the cobra clutch while appearing to go for the ball.  

 

That is one reason why I hated the call so much. Why waste a play on a dangerous pass when you know you aren't going to get the call unless the guy strips down the receiver and bends him over a table when you have Beast Mode waiting?

 

I am pretty positive that you will not see many plays resembling Butler's next season because DB's know they can't get away with knocking a receiver over before the ball arrives.  NE was in very different position on the 1 yard line with seconds left in the game:  a position of desperation where a half yard penalty and new downs would be well worth avoiding a TD especially with the upside that the refs "let the players decide the game."