The Case for JC...

[Diesel]

JC Not Tradable...

Not that he's not tradable.   Atlanta Shouldn't trade him.  It's an interesting read. 

Here's a tidbit:

Quote

This season, Collins increased his defensive rebounds, steals, and held steady at one block per game. According to most advanced states, including FiveThirtyEight's RAPTOR rating, only Clint Capela and Delon Wright were better defenders this season.

Collins is capable of playing defense without fouling while still providing adequate rim protection. Couple that with his switchability, and it makes him an integral part of the Hawks' defense.

 

[swanlee]

I think it's silly people are still wanting to trade him and CC yet complain about our defense, without JC and CC we'd be giving up alot more point during the season.

[Diesel]

Hawks fans are very reactionary. 

We played Miami with no CC and a hobbled JC .  Miami was able to take advantage of a Young OO and a poor rotation at PF.    They were able to run defensive sets that would not be as possible had we been 100% healthy.   But then Hawks fans say..

Trade them all away. 

I recognize the upgrade that Gobert would be on defense.  But I also recognize that in important games, his defense doesn't make a difference for a Utah team that would look like our team if we had to give up so much to get him. 

I recognize the offensive upgrade that Ayton would be.  However, I also realize that on defense, we would give up some stuff (perimeter defense to be specific). 

Right now, the trade to get them is meaningless because we have pieces and picks to do it.   The question that we're not really trying to answer is would it make a difference?

I would rather us Keep CC/OO and bring in a young 7 footer who could help us situationally. 

And let JC get back healthy.  This piece clears a lot of confusion about JC.  If used correctly, he's one of the best 4s in the game because of his diversity. 

[JTB]

I don’t think JC should be traded but more so have a plan put in place to help him be better just like there’s obvious plans to help Trae become better…we need to do the same with JC.

 

when @thecampster gave us some inside info a few weeks ago one of his insiders stated that the Hawks front office believes JC would benefit more with a longer and stronger top center in the league.

 

I personally believe that this is very possible depending on the center. Gobert for example will definitely help JCs defense possibly become really good team defense so that part is intriguing putting Gobert next to Collins. But offensively unless there’s another move in place Gobert does nothing to help collins expand offensively.

 

Lets say we get Ayton. I personally think Ayton is the opposite of Gobert and he will help Collins become a better offensive player simply because Ayton and Trae would be the 1 - 2 punch offensively and force much the opponents defensive focus on them which should free up JC whom I’ve said for years is a more than perfect 3rd option because he’s so efficient at all levels. Defensively I do not believe Ayton would be too much of a difference than what capela is and maybe slightly worse but Ayton is better all around of course.

[NBASupes]

I don't see any case for JC as long as we are in the Eastern conference  and you got 

Giannis

Tatum

Siakam

Randle

Embiid

Allen

Bam

Vecevic 

And Durant

 

The 4/5 is strongest in the east. You gotta be able to be able to guard both positions and his salary is high even if he's clearly worth it.

To me, Okongwu needs to replace him. Obviously, Okongwu can't replace JC offensive production even if he adds range and he MUST add range in 2022-23. 

You gotta be able to guard both the 4 and 5 in the east. Collins can only guard the 4 and he struggles against the best individual offensive players at the 4. 

Collins is very versatile, high BBIQ, elite movement player, tremendous shooter when healthy, and he's a good defender who communicates exceptionally well and he is pretty good at switching on defense. 

I wouldn't give him away by any stretch but I would gladly seek an upgrade. He's a top 10 PF and if we can get a top 5 Center or SG for him, I'll do it if the fit is right. 

Edited May 8, 2022 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

21 minutes ago, JTB said:

I don’t think JC should be traded but more so have a plan put in place to help him be better just like there’s obvious plans to help Trae become better…we need to do the same with JC.

 

when @thecampster gave us some inside info a few weeks ago one of his insiders stated that the Hawks front office believes JC would benefit more with a longer and stronger top center in the league.

 

I personally believe that this is very possible depending on the center. Gobert for example will definitely help JCs defense possibly become really good team defense so that part is intriguing putting Gobert next to Collins. But offensively unless there’s another move in place Gobert does nothing to help collins expand offensively.

 

Lets say we get Ayton. I personally think Ayton is the opposite of Gobert and he will help Collins become a better offensive player simply because Ayton and Trae would be the 1 - 2 punch offensively and force much the opponents defensive focus on them which should free up JC whom I’ve said for years is a more than perfect 3rd option because he’s so efficient at all levels. Defensively I do not believe Ayton would be too much of a difference than what capela is and maybe slightly worse but Ayton is better all around of course.

There is a clear defensive gap between Capela and Ayton and I don't believe age is going to fix that. Capela is really an elite paint protector and that's hard to find and if Ayton hasn't shown it yet by year 4, he don't got it. Ayton is a superior offensive player to Capela. I strongly believe you are underestimating Gobert. 

[georgia]

I know this won’t put us over the top.    But would we be after Drummond and offer him the mid level?     Supposedly we tried for him a couple years ago.   He’s cheaper than Ayton and Gobert and we could upgrade other areas.    Just an idea.  

[JTB]

3 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I don't see any case for JC as long as we are in the Eastern conference  and you got 

Giannis

Tatum

Siakam

Randle

Embiid

Allen

Bam

Vecevic 

And Durant

 

The 4/5 is strongest in the east. You gotta be able to be able to guard both positions and his salary is high even if he's clearly worth it.

To me, Okongwu needs to replace him. Obviously, Okongwu can't replace JC offensive production even if he adds range and he MUST add range in 2022-23. 

You gotta be able to guard both the 4 and 5 in the east. Collins can only guard the 4 and he struggles against the best individual offensive players at the 4. 

Collins is very versatile, high BBIQ, elite movement player, tremendous shooter when healthy, and he's a good defender who communicates exceptionally well and he is pretty good at switching on defense. 

I wouldn't give him away by any stretch but I would gladly seek an upgrade. He's a top 10 PF and if we can get a top 5 Center or SG for him, I'll do it if the fit is right. 

To me all of this is fair but I do want to make one point about Collins that really upsets me when he’s facing these other top star forwards and that’s the fact that he doesn’t do the things in my opinion that will make himself succeed against them and that may not be his fault it could just be a lack of coaching.

For example JC seems to try to go up and use his athleticism vs everyone even when the opponent is just as athletic or longer and more powerful….and majority of the time JC gets blocked a lot or just completely shut out.

 

INSTEAD…when he’s facing a longer opponent like Siakam, or more powerful opponent like Randle, or more powerful, longer and athletic opponent like Giannis he need to learn to use those very good skills he’s developed in matchups like this and he NEVER does!
 

TO ME Collins may never actually win the matchup if he doesn’t physically get stronger (which will help a lot) but I do believe at the very least right now he could make these matchups even or  somewhat close to even maybe except for a select few ( like Giannis) but by all means Collins need to make these matchups close as possible using his skills!…off ball movement, shooting ability, high bbiq.

Collins tends to try to dunk on these guys all the time and I love the passion (he shows he’s not afraid to attempt a contact dunk on anyone and I love that) but after you get blocked so many times by these guys it stops being about passion and starts to just be a lack of understanding how to beat your opponent.

 

Like I said though this may be another result of the fact that Collins need to be featured offensively a lot more and a ton more plays called for him.

[JTB]

1 hour ago, georgia said:

I know this won’t put us over the top.    But would we be after Drummond and offer him the mid level?     Supposedly we tried for him a couple years ago.   He’s cheaper than Ayton and Gobert and we could upgrade other areas.    Just an idea.  

He’s terrible on defending the pick and roll. He is better than capela offensively in my opinion but in this era way worse with all these spaced offenses nowadays.

[NBASupes]

14 minutes ago, JTB said:

He’s terrible on defending the pick and roll. He is better than capela offensively in my opinion but in this era way worse with all these spaced offenses nowadays.

I'll rather Capela offensively. At least Capela makes others better due to his screens and ability to role. Drummond is back to the basket big with average efficiency. Those players are vet mins in today's NBA. 

[JTB]

3 hours ago, NBASupes said:

There is a clear defensive gap between Capela and Ayton and I don't believe age is going to fix that. Capela is really an elite paint protector and that's hard to find and if Ayton hasn't shown it yet by year 4, he don't got it. Ayton is a superior offensive player to Capela. I strongly believe you are underestimating Gobert. 

That’s fair…but I don’t think I’m hiding that either.

I think Gobert is certainly an elite defensive center but to me if capela was gifted with the same height and length then he could match the same defensive advanced stats as Gobert. Height and length are the only reasons TO ME Gobert is better than Capela defensively (again in my opinion). Skill wise on defense they are extremely similar.

 

That doesn’t mean I don’t think Gobert would be an upgrade because I do! Unfortunately you can’t teach height and well a taller defensive version of Capela would be great! But on the flip side I also do believe from an offensive standpoint Gobert is a better finisher than Capela around the goal and I believe for Gobert, despite not being truly good offensively, Gobert would be a 20 - 22 point scorer with and solely because of Traes playmaking!

So my reasoning in upgrading from Capela to Gobert leans more on the fact that I believe Gobert will bring slightly better defense than what capela brings but he’s also an easy walking bucket, shooting  at 65% or better from the field and a 20+ scorer in Atlanta.

 

I don’t care how you get your 20+ points as long as you’re efficient and you can sustain it. 
 

Oddly I would bet Gobert would look like a two way player once he’s with Trae  if someone judged him solely from just looking at the stat sheet.

 

A few years ago the hawks were one of the best paint teams back to back in terms of scoring and I think they really need to get back to that. In the playoffs Traes floaters are our best paint shots followed by JCs and Capelas rolls to the goal which really takes a hit in the playoffs. Gobert would be a big help in this area when the playoff physicality hits since he can use his length to muscle some baskets in.

[Diesel]

The issue with Gobert is that Gobert makes a lot of money.

The other issue with Gobert is that more often than not, he's going to be a drop back defender.  This is not the days when you can funnel players into the big man and shut down an offense.   Mutombo days are gone.   This is the day when the offensive team spreads the floor and makes your Center defend in Space or watch you eat three pointers. 

What do you think Miami does?

So when the playoffs come, every team has a squad of three point shooters that they line the arc with and make your center work.

Clint.. for all of his short comings, he does this well.   OO does it well but he's too reactionary.   

This year, Dallas hit 93 of 251 3 pters against Utah in 6 games.   That's 41.833 Three point attempts per game. 

Last Year, Clips hit 97 of 224 3 pters against the Utah Jazz in  6 games.   That's 37.33 Three point attempts per game. 

Now, let's do some comparing...  This year, GS beat Denver in 5.  They hit 74 of 180 three pointers.   That's 36 three point attempts per game. 

Think about it..  GS is known as a three point shooting team.  They made less attempts than Dallas did playing Utah.

For these playoffs, there is a 33.7 three point attempts per game overall. 

All this together tells me that when playing Utah, the thing to do is spread em out,  get your three point shooters ready and take the shots. 

 

 

[NBASupes]

51 minutes ago, JTB said:

That’s fair…but I don’t think I’m hiding that either.

I think Gobert is certainly an elite defensive center but to me if capela was gifted with the same height and length then he could match the same defensive advanced stats as Gobert. Height and length are the only reasons TO ME Gobert is better than Capela defensively (again in my opinion). Skill wise on defense they are extremely similar.

 

That doesn’t mean I don’t think Gobert would be an upgrade because I do! Unfortunately you can’t teach height and well a taller defensive version of Capela would be great! But on the flip side I also do believe from an offensive standpoint Gobert is a better finisher than Capela around the goal and I believe for Gobert, despite not being truly good offensively, Gobert would be a 20 - 22 point scorer with and solely because of Traes playmaking!

So my reasoning in upgrading from Capela to Gobert leans more on the fact that I believe Gobert will bring slightly better defense than what capela brings but he’s also an easy walking bucket, shooting  at 65% or better from the field and a 20+ scorer in Atlanta.

 

I don’t care how you get your 20+ points as long as you’re efficient and you can sustain it. 
 

Oddly I would bet Gobert would look like a two way player once he’s with Trae  if someone judged him solely from just looking at the stat sheet.

 

A few years ago the hawks were one of the best paint teams back to back in terms of scoring and I think they really need to get back to that. In the playoffs Traes floaters are our best paint shots followed by JCs and Capelas rolls to the goal which really takes a hit in the playoffs. Gobert would be a big help in this area when the playoff physicality hits since he can use his length to muscle some baskets in.

The biggest difference is he's a tremendous floor raiser. We don't have that right now. You add Gobert, you talking 45 wins with just him, add Trae to that mix, you got 55 wins and potentially more depending on the others. 

For 5 years, it will be a beautiful marriage. 

[NBASupes]

19 minutes ago, Diesel said:

The issue with Gobert is that Gobert makes a lot of money.

The other issue with Gobert is that more often than not, he's going to be a drop back defender.  This is not the days when you can funnel players into the big man and shut down an offense.   Mutombo days are gone.   This is the day when the offensive team spreads the floor and makes your Center defend in Space or watch you eat three pointers. 

What do you think Miami does?

So when the playoffs come, every team has a squad of three point shooters that they line the arc with and make your center work.

Clint.. for all of his short comings, he does this well.   OO does it well but he's too reactionary.   

This year, Dallas hit 93 of 251 3 pters against Utah in 6 games.   That's 41.833 Three point attempts per game. 

Last Year, Clips hit 97 of 224 3 pters against the Utah Jazz in  6 games.   That's 37.33 Three point attempts per game. 

Now, let's do some comparing...  This year, GS beat Denver in 5.  They hit 74 of 180 three pointers.   That's 36 three point attempts per game. 

Think about it..  GS is known as a three point shooting team.  They made less attempts than Dallas did playing Utah.

For these playoffs, there is a 33.7 three point attempts per game overall. 

All this together tells me that when playing Utah, the thing to do is spread em out,  get your three point shooters ready and take the shots. 

 

 

 

[JTB]

22 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

The biggest difference is he's a tremendous floor raiser. We don't have that right now. You add Gobert, you talking 45 wins with just him, add Trae to that mix, you got 55 wins and potentially more depending on the others. 

For 5 years, it will be a beautiful marriage. 

Yeah I don’t need to be convinced I want Gobert here but more so Ayton . Either way get one of them and I’m happy  but with Gobert we need to get Malcom Brogdan too who I believe we could really land.

 

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, NBASupes said:

 

Yeah, Originally, I brought this video to the Squawk.   It is 100% true that DMitchell is a terrible defender.   Sadly, you say when it comes to defense, Trae is the WOAT.    After we have spent all the collateral getting Gobert,  how would we be different than Utah??  So the defense may or may not be Gobert's fault but the way he plays defense and the way that you are forced to use him because of his size leads to teams Spreading their offense and working off of three point shooting. 

In both of the videos that I presented, you see the same thing. It's the blueprint to beating Gobert. 

So yes, we would have better rim protection.  Yes, we would have a slightly better rebounder.  However, the thing we would miss is having a Center who can step out and help out.  I'd hate to see us spend the money, go into the LT, and put forward a team that can get a high seed and lose in the first round. 

 

[REHawksFan]

7 hours ago, NBASupes said:

The biggest difference is he's a tremendous floor raiser. We don't have that right now. You add Gobert, you talking 45 wins with just him, add Trae to that mix, you got 55 wins and potentially more depending on the others. 

For 5 years, it will be a beautiful marriage. 

At what cost though?  I'm not against Gobert but we'd be paying him $56M more than Clint over the next 3 years.  Is Rudy $19M per year better than Clint?  

I think we need to upgrade the C position but I'm concerned that trading for Gobert will cost a lot in assets to acquire AND cost a King's Ransom in salary.  

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

Yeah, Originally, I brought this video to the Squawk.   It is 100% true that DMitchell is a terrible defender.   Sadly, you say when it comes to defense, Trae is the WOAT.    After we have spent all the collateral getting Gobert,  how would we be different than Utah??  So the defense may or may not be Gobert's fault but the way he plays defense and the way that you are forced to use him because of his size leads to teams Spreading their offense and working off of three point shooting. 

In both of the videos that I presented, you see the same thing. It's the blueprint to beating Gobert. 

So yes, we would have better rim protection.  Yes, we would have a slightly better rebounder.  However, the thing we would miss is having a Center who can step out and help out.  I'd hate to see us spend the money, go into the LT, and put forward a team that can get a high seed and lose in the first round. 

 

Atlanta is better defensively than Utah if you remove Gobert, if you add Gobert to Atlanta, that's a top 5 defense regardless of WOAT who will be neutralized on that end. 

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, REHawksFan said:

At what cost though?  I'm not against Gobert but we'd be paying him $56M more than Clint over the next 3 years.  Is Rudy $19M per year better than Clint?  

I think we need to upgrade the C position but I'm concerned that trading for Gobert will cost a lot in assets to acquire AND cost a King's Ransom in salary.  

If we didn't have Trae who spammed the 1/5 PnR I would actually say Capela is simply a better value but with Trae weaknesses and strengths. I believe both players can take each other to different heights. 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Atlanta is better defensively than Utah if you remove Gobert, if you add Gobert to Atlanta, that's a top 5 defense regardless of WOAT who will be neutralized on that end. 

I don't think that Gobert is the genie in the bottle that you think he is.   We'd rearrange our defense to accommodate his drop defense (rim protection) and then what... we'd still have a glaring hole at SG.   Kev just haven't stepped up enough to be a fulltime guy and Bogi will not be consistent on the defensive end.   Along with that, the acquisition of Gobert will put us in the LT for the remainder of his contract so we would have to make do with whatever we could find on the boards or in the draft. 

I don't see the great improvement that it will give us being worth the other issues we will have.