Why Do Hawks Fans Hate JC??

[AHF]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

You're right!  Gobert and Lavine have been so much better in the playoffs than John!  Oh Wait!

Gobert has been demonstrably better.  Not sure there is any category where JC has been better.  In the playoffs, he has scored more than JC, scored more efficiently than JC, rebounded more than JC, had a higher steal rate, much higher block rate, better PER, better WS/48, better VORP, better BPM, better offensive rating, better defensive rating, etc.

Lavine averages 19.3 points, 6.0 assists, and 5.3 rebounds per game in the playoffs.  Not shabby but the smallest sample size of any of the three.

If you are making a value per dollar argument, you have a MUCH stronger case vs Gobert there since Gobert has disappointed in the playoffs particularly relative to his regular season impact and costs way more than JC ($23M) and LaVine ($19.5M) did this season.

[NBASupes]

48 minutes ago, Mikey said:

Hes the definition of mid lol. His best role is as one position (center) on offense but on defense he can't guard that position and can only guard 4s. We paid a lot for a guy that is just an excellent role player. Look at this post season numbers and you'll see he isn't some guy that elevates his game by any means.

The dude wanted max level money and got a huge deal to be the second option and he just isnt that. Hes in all trade packages cause he makes the money and is a good enough player to acquire us the most value. Its no hate to him but he just isn't the guy you need next to trae. This was further proven when we played our best play without him this season

He's superior to mid. I don't think anyone we have qualifies as mid outside of Delon. But he's not a star or superstar. He's the same tier as Millsap and Ayton. Fringe all star. He was really good in the 1st half of the season. Probably our best player on both ends during that period. The injuries limited him and his metrics fall because he wanted to be a great team player and fight through adversity. That doesn't bother me any, if he was bigger and built like let's say Jabari Smith, none of us would want to get rid of him but if he was built like him, he wouldn't have went 19th. JC impact is real. His talent is real. His work ethic is real. His intangibles are real. His feel for the game is real. His movement skills is real. His offensive ability is real. I respect and love him.

[Peoriabird]

10 minutes ago, AHF said:

Gobert has been demonstrably better.  Not sure there is any category where JC has been better.  In the playoffs, he has scored more than JC, scored more efficiently than JC, rebounded more than JC, had a higher steal rate, much higher block rate, better PER, better WS/48, better VORP, better BPM, better offensive rating, better defensive rating, etc.

Lavine averages 19.3 points, 6.0 assists, and 5.3 rebounds per game in the playoffs.  Not shabby but the smallest sample size of any of the three.

If you are making a value per dollar argument, you have a MUCH stronger case vs Gobert there since Gobert has disappointed in the playoffs particularly relative to his regular season impact and costs way more than JC ($23M) and LaVine ($19.5M) did this season.

Looking at playoff advanced metrics and I won't include this year's Collins..  This is how Collins stacks up

 

Player                        ORTG                                        DRTG

Lavine                       102                                            112

Collins                       121                                             111

Gobert                       130                                           110

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

Looking at playoff advanced metrics and I won't include this year's Collins..  This is how Collins stacks up

 

Player                        ORTG                                        DRTG

Lavine                       102                                            112

Collins                       121                                             111

Gobert                       130                                           110

By the way, at age 24 Gobert was  121         105

[Peoriabird]

If Bmp/Vorp/per are your favorite stats

 

Player                                      BMP                                 VORP                        PER

Lavine                                     1.9                                       .1                             13.7

Collins                                      .9                                       .4                             15.3

Gobert                                     2.3                                     .2                              19.3

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, AHF said:

I think that is about the perception of the best roles for Trae and JC.  Trae is a potential MVP candidate who is your superstar.  

As North put up pretty accurately, imo:

That puts them in different buckets as far as whether you consider them untouchable or not.

It also doesn't mean North (or I) hate JC.

The problem is supply chain...

There's a supply chain problem with good PFs.   That means that regardless of what you think his ceiling is, his value has to be higher.  I agree that if we find a star player for him, then he's tradable.. but there also must be a plan for PF... and that plan can't be putting somebody at PF who has never played there before... or playing an undersized player who is better served as a  wing player there.  

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, Mikey said:

Look at this post season numbers and you'll see he isn't some guy that elevates his game by any means.

 

You're kidding right??  This is the dribblings of somebody who woke up and watched game 3, 4, and 5 vs Miami and had no knowledge of anything that had gone on prior to that.  You just lost all credibility..

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

Gobert has been demonstrably better. 

I watched the playoffs with Gobert.  I watched him get Cooked.

The problem is.. defense is his specialty? right?  

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 hours ago, Diesel said:

You know who else has really Good trade value???

Trae Young...

Do you get my point yet.   When you value the players that you have, you don't go off trading them because they got good trade value.  The reason JC has good trade value is because there are several PFs in the league that suck at this and suck at that.   JC is one that doesn't suck at this and suck at that.   If you trade him, who do you replace him with... if you say Randle.. you need to be beat. 

 

 

You replace him with a greater talent.  Randle isn't a greater talent and no one in this organization would trade JC for Randle.

Trae has good trade value AND Trae has Box Office value.  The guy putting butts in the seats isn't going to get traded, unless you get something greater or he wants out.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Looking at playoff advanced metrics and I won't include this year's Collins..  This is how Collins stacks up

 

Player                        ORTG                                        DRTG

Lavine                       102                                            112

Collins                       121                                             111

Gobert                       130                                           110

 

LaVine has "superstar responsibilities".

Collins and Gobert don't.

Plus the other two get great looks at the rim via assists from their PG.

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

LaVine has "superstar responsibilities".

Collins and Gobert don't.

Plus the other two get great looks at the rim via assists from their PG.

Gobert has to carry his team. You can't be serious with that statement

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Gobert has to carry his team. You can't be serious with that statement

 

Dead serious.

Gobert isn't being asked to score 25 - 30 ppg at the drop of a hat.  Gobert is being asked to be the defensive anchor of the team.  He's not being asked to be the offensive engine of the team, which is what a player with "superstar responsibilites" is being asked to do.

Mitchell has "superstar responsibilities" because he's being asked to produce at a high offensive level in order for his team to win.  Trae has "superstar responsibilities" from a scoring and facilitating standpoint.

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Dead serious.

Gobert isn't being asked to score 25 - 30 ppg at the drop of a hat.  Gobert is being asked to be the defensive anchor of the team.  He's not being asked to be the offensive engine of the team, which is what a player with "superstar responsibilites" is being asked to do.

Mitchell has "superstar responsibilities" because he's being asked to produce at a high offensive level in order for his team to win.  Trae has "superstar responsibilities" from a scoring and facilitating standpoint.

LMAO, man, our fans....

[Mikey]

8 hours ago, Diesel said:

You're kidding right??  This is the dribblings of somebody who woke up and watched game 3, 4, and 5 vs Miami and had no knowledge of anything that had gone on prior to that.  You just lost all credibility..

Yup it is I no credibility guy. Im sure the moderators will delete that comment like they do mine when I say something like that right?

But yes look at the numbers and tell me he elevates his game come playoff time. You wanna give him the benefit of the doubt for injury this post season go for it. Watch the post season games from last year the dude was not good. He had a couple spark plays here and there and thats it. Literally scored 4 points with trae out and we won. He is not impactful to the hawks winning certainly not at his price point

[AHF]

Gobert is tasked to carry his team on defense and contribute on offense.  LaVine is expected to be co-lead (3 way tie basically for CHI this year) on offense and not stink on defense.  JC is tasked with contributing solidly everywhere but not expected to lead anywhere.

Glad we are on the same page with the numbers, Peo.

[Peoriabird]

8 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

LaVine has "superstar responsibilities".

Collins and Gobert don't.

Plus the other two get great looks at the rim via assists from their PG.

Superstar???? Lavine wasn't even the best player on his team.  laughable!

[Peoriabird]

32 minutes ago, AHF said:

Glad we are on the same page with the numbers, Peo.

Confused...not only are lavine's advanced metrics not so much better the Collins in the playoff...they are all worse except BMP

[TheNorthCydeRises]

11 hours ago, NBASupes said:

LMAO, man, our fans....

Shaq had superstar responsibilities. So did Hakeem.

So Gobert's impact on a game is close to what they did?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Superstar???? Lavine wasn't even the best player on his team.  laughable!

I said "superstar responsibilities".

Just because a guy isn't a superstar, doesn't mean that his team doesn't place superstar responsibilities on him. Like I said; we did that to Joe Johnson, despite Joe never being a top 15 player as a Hawk.

[AHF]

8 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Confused...not only are lavine's advanced metrics not so much better the Collins in the playoff...they are all worse except BMP

I didn't say anything about LaVine's advanced metrics.  You posted that Gorbert's advanced metrics were the best of all 3 in basically every category.  What I posted about was a comparison of JC and Gobert.  Thus, we agree.