List of the Day 8-17... Most Overrated.

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Yes.  Kobe averaged 32 points on 43% shooting.  That is volume scoring.  Ie he only scored that many because he took that many shots.  Look at my list again.  Volume scorers are getting killed on my list.

Kobe is a great player but not among the very best in the game but a lot of people include him in that discussion.  Thus, overrated.  Carmelo didn’t make the list for me because I think his rep has fallen pretty hard over the years where he is now viewed as better than Glen Robinson but not a truly great player which is much closer than when he was actually playing and had his overblown rep.  I suspect that will be what happens with Ja.  Ja is maybe the most overrated player in the game today but I don’t think time will be kind to him.  

I dunno man.. metrics aside .. Kobe was a killer. Hard to keep him out of the top 10 but definitely out of the top 20 without question.

[Diesel]

27 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

I dunno man.. metrics aside .. Kobe was a killer. Hard to keep him out of the top 10 but definitely out of the top 20 without question.

I don't even think that's a question.   HIs 5 rings puts him in every top 10 conversation.  These are not Robert Horry glad to be there rings... these were rings where Kobe put the team on his back. 

[AHF]

35 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

I dunno man.. metrics aside .. Kobe was a killer. Hard to keep him out of the top 10 but definitely out of the top 20 without question.

Throw out the metrics.  Let me ask you this about what Diesel thinks is the most impressive moment of Kobe’s career: averaging 32 PPG against Orlando.

How many points do you think the top scorers in NBA history would average in that series if you gave them 27 shots a game like Kobe had?  How many wouldn’t average 32 points per game with 27 shots a game?

Take Larry Bird.  He averaged 27.4 a game against Magic’s Lakers.  Is that less impressive than Kobe’s 32?  Bird took 18.3 shots a game to get his 27.4.  Does anyone think if Bird took another 8.7 shots a game that he doesn’t add more than 4.6 points to that total and thereby exceed Kobe’s career peak moment scoring against the Magic’s amazing wing defenders?  No one believes that right?  We can all agree that scoring 27.4 on 18.3 shots is a ton better than 32 on 27 shots, right?  So we can all agree that Bird’s best finals series craps on Kobe’s before we start into the fact that Bird was pulling down 14 rebounds a game while out scoring Kobe.

I just don’t value guys who are willing to keep shooting to pump up their stats even when they aren’t shooting particularly well.  Making 3 game winners is impressive but if you take 10 shots to do it then it becomes a lot less impressive.  Kobe isn’t someone who routinely hurt his team by chucking (maybe outside of his insistence on taking low % hero ball shots at the end of games so he could have his MJ moments).  I do not put him in the same category as AI for example.  But he is also being compared against a different tier of competition.  People rate him routinely over the absolute best players in history but when you compare him to someone like a LeBron he isn’t close and shouldn’t be in that discussion.

Now let’s not miss the first for the trees.  Kobe was an All-Time great.  I rank him above Nique for example who was also an All-Timer.  But I put him closer to Nique than I do LeBron and Jordan and he is actually above one or both of those guys along with Kareem, Magic, Bird, Wilt, etc. on a lot of lists and I think that is serious overrating.  So again this is a push back to the people who have him on their Mount Everest and there are a lot of them because he was very popular and died in tragic circumstances.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Yes.  Kobe averaged 32 points on 43% shooting.  That is volume scoring.  Ie he only scored that many because he took that many shots.  Look at my list again.  Volume scorers are getting killed on my list.

Kobe is a great player but not among the very best in the game but a lot of people include him in that discussion.  Thus, overrated.  Carmelo didn’t make the list for me because I think his rep has fallen pretty hard over the years where he is now viewed as better than Glen Robinson but not a truly great player which is much closer than when he was actually playing and had his overblown rep.  I suspect that will be what happens with Ja.  Ja is maybe the most overrated player in the game today but I don’t think time will be kind to him.  

Let's say that Kobe was a volume scorer...  Let's say that he was low efficiency all that...

Name one Low efficiency volume scorer that won 1 NBA championship?

[AHF]

12 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Let's say that Kobe was a volume scorer...  Let's say that he was low efficiency all that...

Name one Low efficiency volume scorer that won 1 NBA championship?

I wouldn’t call him a low efficiency scorer in the abstract.  He is a low efficiency scorer compared to the best scorers in NBA history.  He is a much more efficient scorer than guys like AI.  This is a matter of who you are comparing him against.  I would say he was a moderately efficient scorer.  His best years he was scoring at an efficiency comparable to how efficiently Trae scored last season.  Is that amazing?  Not to me but it is much better than the Russel Westbrooks of the world who usually hurt their team so much that they can’t get over the hump and win a ring to your point.  Kobe was not at that level of inefficiency.  
 

His efficiency was fine as second banana to Shaq and then he was lucky to be playing in the league at a time when he had Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Derek Fisher, Andrew Bynum, etc and LeBron didn’t have nearly the same level of talent on his team.  No Jordan, Duncan and Manu past their peaks in their 30’s, LeBron with his underwhelming Cleveland cast, etc. opened a nice window for Kobe and Gasol to win a couple rings.

He is an all-time great but are you grouping him with Jordan, Kareem and LeBron (in which case he is overrated) or pushing him down the list a ways from there to matchup with his true peers?  If the latter, then you aren’t overrating him.  But many people put him above Kareem on their list for example which is a travesty.

[Diesel]

16 minutes ago, AHF said:

Throw out the metrics.  Let me ask you this about what Diesel thinks is the most impressive moment of Kobe’s career: averaging 32 PPG against Orlando.

How many points do you think the top scorers in NBA history would average in that series if you gave them 27 shots a game like Kobe had?  How many wouldn’t average 32 points per game with 27 shots a game?

Take Larry Bird.  He averaged 27.4 a game against Magic’s Lakers.  Is that less impressive than Kobe’s 32?  Bird took 18.3 shots a game to get his 27.4.  Does anyone think if Bird took another 8.7 shots a game that he doesn’t add more than 4.6 points to that total and thereby exceed Kobe’s career peak moment scoring against the Magic’s amazing wing defenders?  No one believes that right?  We can all agree that scoring 27.4 on 18.3 shots is a ton better than 32 on 27 shots, right?  So we can all agree that Bird’s best finals series craps on Kobe’s before we start into the fact that Bird was pulling down 14 rebounds a game while out scoring Kobe.

I just don’t value guys who are willing to keep shooting to pump up their stats even when they aren’t shooting particularly well.  Making 3 game winners is impressive but if you take 10 shots to do it then it becomes a lot less impressive.  Kobe isn’t someone who routinely hurt his team by chucking (maybe outside of his insistence on taking low % hero ball shots at the end of games so he could have his MJ moments).  I do not put him in the same category as AI for example.  But he is also being compared against a different tier of competition.  People rate him routinely over the absolute best players in history but when you compare him to someone like a LeBron he isn’t close and shouldn’t be in that discussion.

Now let’s not miss the first for the trees.  Kobe was an All-Time great.  I rank him above Nique for example who was also an All-Timer.  But I put him closer to Nique than I do LeBron and Jordan and he is actually above one or both of those guys along with Kareem, Magic, Bird, Wilt, etc. on a lot of lists and I think that is serious overrating.  So again this is a push back to the people who have him on their Mount Everest and there are a lot of them because he was very popular and died in tragic circumstances.

Some people value the details more than the results. 

The way I view it, Kobe did what he needed to do to win.  You have a whole lot of efficient guys who didn't win Jack.  You also can't find nobody in the category you placed Kobe in that has any rings. 

16 minutes ago, AHF said:

His efficiency was fine as second banana to Shaq and then he was lucky to be playing in the league at a time when he had Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Derek Fisher, Andrew Bynum, etc and LeBron didn’t have nearly the same level of talent on his team.  No Jordan, Duncan and Manu past their peaks in their 30’s, LeBron with his underwhelming Cleveland cast, etc. opened a nice window for Kobe and Gasol to win a couple rings.

The big three in Boston were no slouches and I think you are overrated  Odom, Derek Fisher, and Bynum.  That cast was not that good.  For example...  KG, Paul Pierce, and Rondo were allstars and Ray Allen should have been an allstar.  Only Kobe and Gasol got the nod.