Question of the Day. 8-27...

[Diesel]

 

If we replaced Trae with Allen Iverson in his prime... 

Are we better, worse, or the same...  Explain.

[AHF]

Worse.  AI was a very inefficient scorer and not much of a playmaker.  To be successful in his prime, he needed a team that deferred completely to him on offense while playing elite defense.  We don’t have the defense to make up for what would be a very subpar offense in today’s NBA.  Even worse than in his era where during his age 24-29 years, Philly’s offensive rating was near the worst in the league in the 20’s the vast majority of the time (four times) and at its best (twice) was in the middle of the pack (13th out of 29 the year they went to the finals).

Atlanta has at least been elite on offense with Trae.  AI would not make them elite on defense and would primarily just make the offense much worse.

[Diesel]

Some things to consider. 

AI did lead the league in steals on three separate occasions.  So while his defense wasn't Gary Payton, he could do the stuff. 

AI was an inefficient scorer, but he played on a team with no real shooters and no real second option. 

[AHF]

14 hours ago, Diesel said:

Some things to consider. 

AI did lead the league in steals on three separate occasions.  So while his defense wasn't Gary Payton, he could do the stuff. 

AI was an inefficient scorer, but he played on a team with no real shooters and no real second option. 

He was a gambler on defense and generated steals for sure.  He wasn't useless on defense but I do feel like his contributions were overrated similar to his scoring based on his counting stats.  What worked well for that with Philly is they had a bunch of stud defenders playing with him so his gambles didn't hurt the team as much as you see with a weaker defensive lineup and a similar gambler like Russell Westbrook.  

AI played with Jerry Stackhouse, Derrick Coleman, Toni Kukoc, Keith Van Horn, Glenn Robinson, Chris Webber, Kyle Korver, Iggy, Andre Miller, Carmelo Anthony, KMart, Rip Hamilton, Rasheed Wallace, etc. over the course of his career.  Most of those guys were good enough to make All-Star games and all of them were impactful options on offense (with the possible exception of KMart who was a good contributor there but made his AS game on the back of his D more than his offense).  None of them enjoyed their best seasons playing with AI.

No matter who else was on the court with him, AI was a terribly inefficient scorer who always wanted the offense to revolve around him despite his lack of playmaking for others.  If you toss out Trae's rookie season (which was near AI's career high TS%), then every single season of AI's career was worse than Trae's worst (non-rookie) season by a significant margin.  Even with his rookie season, Trae has a career .580% TS% as compared to AI's .518% TS%.  Teammates do not explain that difference - it is all about how good a job those guys do putting the ball in the hoop.  AI earned his scoring titles on volume alone.

[Diesel]

7 hours ago, AHF said:

No matter who else was on the court with him, AI was a terribly inefficient scorer who always wanted the offense to revolve around him despite his lack of playmaking for others. 

 

 

It's interesting to me that AI's best shooting years came while he was playing with Carmelo.     You mentioned a lot of guys who were out of their prime or Ai was out of his prime when he played with them.   That Philly team did a terrible job of pairing AI with another scorer.  In Denver, he found his spot because he played with a young Melo in his prime. 

 

[AHF]

15 hours ago, Diesel said:

 

 

It's interesting to me that AI's best shooting years came while he was playing with Carmelo.     You mentioned a lot of guys who were out of their prime or Ai was out of his prime when he played with them.   That Philly team did a terrible job of pairing AI with another scorer.  In Denver, he found his spot because he played with a young Melo in his prime. 

 

In Denver, he had his best season because he was no longer taking as many bad shots.  And he was still worse than Trae's rough year last season every season in Denver.  (His age 31 season was his 3rd best season ever for TS% versus Trae's worst since his rookie season.  The next season his minutes increased but his rate of shots dropped further from the season you cited.)

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, AHF said:

In Denver, he had his best season because he was no longer taking as many bad shots.  And he was still worse than Trae's rough year last season every season in Denver.  (His age 31 season was his 3rd best season ever for TS% versus Trae's worst since his rookie season.  The next season his minutes increased but his rate of shots dropped further from the season you cited.)

Stop moving the goalposts @AHF.   You said that AI didn't show a better performance playing with better players.   I just showed that when paired with Carmelo in his prime, he played better.   He "took better shots" because he had less defensive pressure.   Denver put him with poor shooters and scorers who were out of their prime.   They played good defense and all..  But Eric Snow shooting 23.8%, George Lynch shooting 39% and Hughes and McKie shooting sub 20% from Three is not going to keep good defenses off of AI.   I meanlook at the three point % and attempts..

 

This is freakin pathetic... Lynch had a good percentage but he put up 0.5 attempts per game.  Come on Man.  This is what AI had to work with.   He was the only person who would put up more than 1 three pointer a game.  Well you had Thomas.... shooting 26%.  I have some exclusive footage of Iverson's teammates...

 

 

[AHF]

22 hours ago, Diesel said:

Stop moving the goalposts @AHF.   You said that AI didn't show a better performance playing with better players.   I just showed that when paired with Carmelo in his prime, he played better.   He "took better shots" because he had less defensive pressure.   Denver put him with poor shooters and scorers who were out of their prime.   

First, he didn't improve when playing with better players...until he became a second option on offense.  Jerry Stackhouse and Derrick Coleman didn't get him there.  Chris Webber didn't get him there.  Kyle Korver didn't get him there.  Etc.  

Second, I am pretty sure you meant "Philly" when you typed "Denver" and for Philly it varied by season.  His worst scoring efficiency season of his career was when he was out there with Kyle Korver (historically good 3pt shooter who shot over 39% that year), Glenn Robinson (solid 3pt threat), and Aaron McKie who shot 44% from 3 that season.  Can't blame the supporting 3pt shooters for his grotesque .478% TS% that season.

Third, I didn't say he didn't improve when he went to Denver.  In my first post, I said he was terribly inefficient throughout his career even though he played with like a dozen different All-Star players (not including people like Dikembe who were defensive focused). In my second, I conceded that he improved when he went to Denver and pointed out that becoming the team's second option was really good for reducing his bad shots which was the driver for that improvement.

But saying he was "terribly inefficient" is an overstatement for his first two seasons in Denver.  Fair enough.  I'll damn AI with faint praise and accurately describe his efficiency there.

When AI played with that list of All-Stars he never became an efficient scorer whether in Philly, Denver or Detroit.  To put his career peak for scoring efficiency (his first two Denver seasons) it in Hawks terms, his first season in Denver he improved to "not as efficient a scorer as DeAndre Hunter's career scoring efficiency" level and his second season there he went all the way up to "DeAndre Hunter in 2022-23" level.  Wow!  That is some HOF **** right there. 

In fairness to him, improving to that level of mediocrity it is a big step up from his career norm of "less efficient scorer than Aaron Holiday with many more shots taken" level scoring so kudos to him.

[capstone21]

Steals do not equal defense at all 

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, AHF said:

h better players...until he became a second option on offense.  Jerry Stackhouse and Derrick Coleman didn't get him there.  Chris Webber didn't get him there.  Kyle Korver didn't get him there.  Etc. 

Chris Webber...

 

Derrick Coleman....

 

So your argument is that in his rookie year.... that's the year he played with Stack and Coleman... he was supposed to be a better shooter?

 

It's a shame we don't hold everybody to that rookie year shooting expectations...

 

 

 

[AHF]

Not sure why you cherrypicked that one statement.  Bottomline is even in his career best scenario he was only mediocre and for most of his career he was dreadful.  Being Aaron Holiday level scoring efficiency for your career stinks.  Reaching a career best of 2022-23 DeAndre Hunter is nothing to write home about.  In his absolute career peak season, he couldn't even match Huerter's last Atlanta season or AJ Griffin's rookie season or Trae's underwhelming 2022-23 or Bogi's 2021 or 2023 seasons or for scoring efficiency.  If AI did something really well other than score, I might be convinced but that was his primary contribution and it was purely a volume driven one.

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, AHF said:

If AI did something really well other than score, I might be convinced but that was his primary contribution and it was purely a volume driven one.

You mean like lead the league in steals on 3 separate occasions??

Oh.. steals don't count.  I forgot. 

I don't think that we will agree.  I mean, I recognize the inefficiency and I recognize that he was a volume scorer but he was also a volume play maker.   His gravity was good enough to allow others on his team to score easily.   Unlike you I will not discount the scoring.   You win the game by scoring more than your opponent.. so a player that can score the ball is a good player. 

 

 

[AHF]

34 minutes ago, Diesel said:

You mean like lead the league in steals on 3 separate occasions??

Oh.. steals don't count.  I forgot. 

 

Do you think AI was an impact defender?  My apologies if you do.  I disagree.  For example, Shawn Bradley was an elite shot blocker but not a particularly good defender.  AI is in this category for me as a defender.   He was a better defender than Trae but not a particularly good or impactful one.  The great Philly defenses were build around Mutombo and others not around AI.  He was not Giannis or something on D.

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I don't think that we will agree.  I mean, I recognize the inefficiency and I recognize that he was a volume scorer but he was also a volume play maker.   His gravity was good enough to allow others on his team to score easily.   

AI did not have amazing gravity nor was he an exceptional playmaker.  If he was, his teams would not more often than not rank in the bottom half of the league in ORTG.  You saying that his amazing gravity allowed his teammates to "score easily" combined with his teams having dismal offensive ratings suggests that he took so many shots that he ruined his team's efficiencies.  I don't think that was the case.  He neither made it especially easy for his teammates to score through his gravity and playmaking nor ruined his teams by dragging down their "easy scoring" to low levels.  Instead, he was not a good playmaker and a typical Philly possession was AI holding the ball trying to score for himself and then passing if he got stopped before he shoot.  

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Unlike you I will not discount the scoring.   You win the game by scoring more than your opponent.. so a player that can score the ball is a good player. 

Remember the frame for this discussion.  I discount the scoring in part because your question was do I want to give up Trae for AI.  In that context, you have to show me that giving up Trae's scoring and Trae's playmaking is worth what you get from AI.

You win the game by scoring more than your opponent.  Agreed.  Your team must score more points per possession compared to their opponent to win.  You can do that by scoring more efficiently than your opponent does and by holding your opponent's scoring efficiency down through your defense.  

A player that can score the ball is a good player is an incomplete statement.  A player that can score the ball efficiently is a good scorer is the correct statement.   When you score by volume that means you are taking more shots.  If you are scoring less per possession than your opponent, then you lose the game regardless of how many points you score.  By  extension this means that a particular player's scoring has to be viewed through the lens of whether a possession of that player trying to score is worth more points than both (a) the opponent's possession and (b) your alternative offensive possession (i.e., AI shooting more instead of feeding Steph Curry probably doesn't make sense).  And in the context of this thread, you have to compare that against what a possession of Trae Young running an offense looks like.

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Can we agree that if AI's teammates "scored easily" by virtue of his being a great playmaker and showing impressive gravity and AI individually scored the ball effectively that his team's offense should be great?

Here are AI's team's offense ratings when he was the lead scorer on his team:

1997 - #21 Bottom Third

1998 - #21 Bottom Third

1999 - #23 Bottom Third

2000 - #25 Bottom Third

2001 - #13 Middle Third

2002 - #23 Bottom Third

2003 - #11 Middle Third

2004 - #26 Bottom Third

2005 - #24 Bottom Third

2006 - #15 Middle Third

2007 - #26 Bottom Third (partial season)

 

11 Seasons as the Lead Scorer

0 Seasons in the Top Third

2 Seasons in the Middle Third

9 Seasons in the Bottom Third

[Diesel]

But it was no secret that Philly went out to get a more defensive team around AI.  Not offensive.  So you would not have expected them to be an offensive team. 

I mean, show me why Dikembe Mutombo, Tyrone Hill, Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, and many of the other guys who were his teammates put up offensive stats.  These were defensive guys.

About scoring and scoring efficiency... I don't think you just get to put efficiency in there.   Kyle Korver was efficient.  Had some season where he scored nearly 50% of his shots.    But he never scored over 14 ppg.   Where do you think History remembers Korver?

Do you think he makes the HOF?

Probably not.. that's because being able to score the ball efficiently is not as important as being able to score the ball. 

That's why Iverson will always be celebrated. 

 

 

[AHF]

20 minutes ago, Diesel said:

But it was no secret that Philly went out to get a more defensive team around AI.  Not offensive.  So you would not have expected them to be an offensive team. 

I mean, show me why Dikembe Mutombo, Tyrone Hill, Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, and many of the other guys who were his teammates put up offensive stats.  These were defensive guys.

 

 

Ok.  Let's use Dikembe as an example.  

Deke played two seasons in Philly so we'll use that as our baseline and compare his first two seasons in every place through his Philly tenure.

He averaged 16.6 points and 13.8 points his first two seasons in Denver.

He averaged 13.3 points and 13.4 points his first two seasons in Atlanta.

He averaged 11.7 points and 11.5 points his two seasons in Philly.

Am I supposed to be impressed by this amazing offensive production created by AI through Mutombo?

 

Aaron McKie played most of his career in Philly.  He averaged 2.2 points, 3.9 points, 4.8 points, 8.0 points, 9.0 points, 9.2 points, 11.6 points, and 12.2 points a game over those seasons for a total average of 7.7 points per game.  Is that impressive offensive stats?  Am I supposed to ignore that McKie averaged a much higher point per minute number in Portland before joining Philly?

 

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About scoring and scoring efficiency... I don't think you just get to put efficiency in there.   Kyle Korver was efficient.  Had some season where he scored nearly 50% of his shots.    But he never scored over 14 ppg.   Where do you think History remembers Korver?

Do you think he makes the HOF?

Probably not.. that's because being able to score the ball efficiently is not as important as being able to score the ball. 

That's why Iverson will always be celebrated. 

Being able to score the ball with both high production and high efficiency is the mark of scoring greatness.  A failure to be highly efficient or to be highly productive is reflective of serious weakness that holds you back from greatness.  The reason Trae's 2022 season was so much better than his 2023 season was not that he scored 2 more points a game.  It was because of how much more efficiently he scored.

 

So you can debate AI vs Korver.  AI would be a detriment to truly great offensive teams so maybe Korver is better.  Add Korver to Magic's Lakers and he makes them even better.  Add AI to the Lakers and he hurts them because every shot he takes is one fewer that much better scorers like Kareem, Magic, Worthy, etc. don't take and him playmaking instead of Magic would really hurt the offense.  But on the other hand, you can't have Korver as the focus on your offense.  He just can't produce the volume you need for that.  He needs to be a cog in the machine so to speak.  In contrast, you can have an offense based around AI even if it isn't going to be a great one.

But you can't debate AI or Korver versus the best scorers in the game who provide you with both volume and efficiency.  They make any offense better because they don't take shots away from better scorers and they can create in significant volumes so you can base your offense around them.

 

Back to the OP here, Trae scores in volumes.  He opens things up for his teammates more than AI.  He scores much more efficiently than AI.  Why would I think the Hawks would be better with AI than Trae?

[Spud2nique]

On 8/31/2023 at 11:21 PM, capstone21 said:

at all 

They do a little bit agree not the entire story.

[Spud2nique]

On 8/27/2023 at 11:17 PM, AHF said:

Worse.  AI was a very inefficient scorer and not much of a playmaker.  To be successful in his prime, he needed a team that deferred completely to him on offense while playing elite defense.  We don’t have the defense to make up for what would be a very subpar offense in today’s NBA.  Even worse than in his era where during his age 24-29 years, Philly’s offensive rating was near the worst in the league in the 20’s the vast majority of the time (four times) and at its best (twice) was in the middle of the pack (13th out of 29 the year they went to the finals).

Atlanta has at least been elite on offense with Trae.  AI would not make them elite on defense and would primarily just make the offense much worse.

Worse. Got this also. Too much iso, too much one on one without Trae’s passing skills equals worse. 
 

If we win 50 games with Trae, Iverson would get us 41-45 wins imo.