Tanking / Building a Championship Discussion

[KB21]

8 minutes ago, Mikey said:

This option is horrible lol. By far the worst option. Being competitive with a Murray team and your pick means like the 10 best odds again.

Help*

Wrong!  This option is the best option if you move away from Trae.  You stay competitive and create an environment where player development is done correctly.  The option you want to go with, you might as well fire Quin and hire another stooge like Lloyd Pierce to intentionally lose games.  The problem with that is that you don't develop young players properly without a competitive environment.  

[Mikey]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

Wrong!  This option is the best option if you move away from Trae.  You stay competitive and create an environment where player development is done correctly.  The option you want to go with, you might as well fire Quin and hire another stooge like Lloyd Pierce to intentionally lose games.  The problem with that is that you don't develop young players properly without a competitive environment.  

Do you think wemby isn’t developing on a bottom team rn? Your coaching staff and environment is what’s important to development not the win loss. You know why the pistons suck? Because they have awful coaches and front office. you know why okc is good despite being bottom feeder in recent szns? because they hired the right coach to develop their players.

Intentionally keeping Murray to hurt your odds and take away minutes from your young guys is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. As long as Quin and staff are there the players would develop 

[JeffS17]

7 minutes ago, Mikey said:

This option is horrible lol. By far the worst option. Being competitive with a Murray team and your pick means like the 10 best odds again.

Help*

How is it horrible? That's pretty much how every championship is built-- slowly, over time, developing culture and chemistry with a solid core.  Nuggets, Warriors, Bucks, Spurs teams, etc. 

 

It's actually quite rare for these all-in type of moves to work because quality rotation depth typically gets gutted trading for the star player.  The only exception I can think of is when the Raptors went all-in on Kawhi.  They won their championship, primarily due to Golden State injuries, and have been ass ever since.  Maybe you can argue Anthony Davis as well, but he had Lebron.  Big difference between Lebron and Trae.

But then you have a laundry list of teams that made win-now moves and failed, and have bleak futures: Harden x3, Philly, Nets, and Clips.  KD to Suns, Paul George to Clips, Lillard to Bucks, etc.  Honestly, I see these types of moves as ticket-selling strategies more so than winning moves.  We're not one Giannis away from a chip right now, especially if we're offloading our second best player in the process and a number 1 pick.  Feels desperate and we should not be desperate as Trae is only 25 years old.

 

[KB21]

1 minute ago, Mikey said:

Do you think wemby isn’t developing on a bottom team rn? Your coaching staff and environment is what’s important to development not the win loss. You know why the pistons suck? Because they have awful coaches and front office. you know why okc is good despite being bottom feeder in recent szns? because they hired the right coach to develop their players.

Intentionally keeping Murray to hurt your odds and take away minutes from your young guys is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. As long as Quin and staff are there the players would develop 

Wemby is developing because they aren't actively trying to play to lose games like we did with the idiot Pierce and the idiot Schlenk for choosing that route.  

[Mikey]

Just now, KB21 said:

Wemby is developing because they aren't actively trying to play to lose games like we did with the idiot Pierce and the idiot Schlenk for choosing that route.  

Guess Trae didn’t develop while we were losing games! The spurs legit tanked they didn’t sign a POINT GUARD to give their superstar even decent guard play all season. They INTENTIONALLY LOST GAMES. 

[macdaddy]

Hey guys let's start a separate thread about tanking in general if y'all are interested in that.  

[JeffS17]

2 minutes ago, Mikey said:

Yup tell that to OKC. You don’t have a single clue what tanking is or what it’s for 

Organic to the fact they intentionally wanted to be bad. But you’ll spin this convo however you want just like you did with edeys good numbers at the combine. 

There's a big difference between the Spurs trying to win with not a ton of talent versus letting Trae chuck up shots from 35 feet while the rest of the roster gets cardio

Just now, BangHolman said:

I have only met my direct manager once in person over 3 years. He lives in another country. Video calls are a thing.

Yes, I just got off a virtual board call, I get some meetings might be in person but there's no reason to assume they will be.  Trae is 25, not 65.

[Mikey]

4 minutes ago, KB21 said:

OKC didn't tank either.  They had 1 top 3 pick in this rebuild.  SGA was acquired in a trade.  Josh Giddey was the 8th pick.  Jalen Williams was the 13th or 14th pick.  Cason Wallace was the 12th pick.  

Got to love these fans who think bottoming out and being bad for the next 5-6 years is the best way to build a championship team.  No one has ever blitzed their roster to bottom out and gone on to win a championship.  

Where their pick lands doesn’t define what they were doing. Hawks landed 1 we didn’t tank. We had 3,6,and 8 in years we actually tanked. Pick placement means nothing but good spin just like I said you would. 

Not to mention nobody has to tank for 5-6 years when you already have most of your core. You literally have no idea what “tanking” is. You play your young guys a ton of minutes, naturally they lose and you have a chance of adding high level talent. The process worked to do that. Hawks turned a roster with Dwight Howard as their best player to Trae young. Sixers turned a roster with nobody to embiid. The point is churning your roster to add high level talent. Every team that’s tanked as done that. You have to add the *right* talent if you want to win the chip. There is no one right way to win a championship. There is a guaranteed wrong way and that’s staying in the middle just like you want 

[KB21]

3 minutes ago, Afro said:

I'm having a hard time understanding the point of trading Trae to get our picks back(plus a salary filler), just for us to stay competitive. 

If you're trading Trae, don't we want/need lottery picks? Not middling 15-20s picks. 

No.  You don't need high lottery picks.  You just need picks, a great culture where winning habits are developing, and great scouting/analytics.  

[KB21]

1 minute ago, Mikey said:

Where their pick lands doesn’t define what they were doing. Hawks landed 1 we didn’t tank. We had 3,6,and 8 in years we actually tanked. Pick placement means nothing but good spin just like I said you would. 

Not to mention nobody has to tank for 5-6 years when you already have most of your core. You literally have no idea what “tanking” is. You play your young guys a ton of minutes, naturally they lose and you have a chance of adding high level talent. The process worked to do that. Hawks turned a roster with Dwight Howard as their best player to Trae young. Sixers turned a roster with nobody to embiid. The point is churning your roster to add high level talent. Every team that’s tanked as done that. You have to add the *right* talent if you want to win the chip. There is no one right way to win a championship. There is a guaranteed wrong way and that’s staying in the middle just like you want 

Do you like being this wrong?  The is one guaranteed way to never win a championship.  Tanking.  

[Mikey]

1 hour ago, JeffS17 said:

There's a big difference between the Spurs trying to win with not a ton of talent versus letting Trae chuck up shots from 35 feet while the rest of the roster gets cardio

Yes, I just got off a virtual board call, I get some meetings might be in person but there's no reason to assume they will be.  Trae is 25, not 65.

The same thing would happen with the hawks I don’t get how y’all do understand. They would be playing Quin ball with jalen and sarr at the forefront. Not watching Murray jack 25 shots a game and not be a high level playmaker while simultaneously take minutes from Kobe and any other guard and make them the 7th seed. There youngins will play and learn but lose that’s how it ALWAYS works 

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

No.  You don't need high lottery picks.  You just need picks, a great culture where winning habits are developing, and great scouting/analytics.  

[insult removed] The jokics of the world are anomaly’s. You need top picks 

[Afro]

Just now, KB21 said:

No.  You don't need high lottery picks.  You just need picks, a great culture where winning habits are developing, and great scouting/analytics.  

You're trading Trae for not high picks?

That's what doesnt make any sense for me.

You're actively rooting to trade our star for 2 picks in a bad draft, and some #15th picks(or worse)

 

If your sole goal is to be good and the position of the picks doesnt really matter, trading solely with the Spurs doesnt really make any sense. 

Shit, if middling 1sts is the goal, just trading DJM for whatever pick package you can get makes far more sense. 

[Mikey]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

Do you like being this wrong?  The is one guaranteed way to never win a championship.  Tanking.  

Wait till you realize what the warriors did before they were a dynasty. Or what the spurs did to land Duncan. 

1 hour ago, Afro said:

You're trading Trae for not high picks?

That's what doesnt make any sense for me.

You're actively rooting to trade our star for 2 picks in a bad draft, and some #15th picks(or worse)

 

If your sole goal is to be good and the position of the picks doesnt really matter, trading solely with the Spurs doesnt really make any sense. 

Shit, if middling 1sts is the goal, just trading DJM for whatever pick package you can get makes far more sense. 

[insult removed]

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, Afro said:

You're trading Trae for not high picks?

That's what doesnt make any sense for me.

You're actively rooting to trade our star for 2 picks in a bad draft, and some #15th picks(or worse)

 

If your sole goal is to be good and the position of the picks doesnt really matter, trading solely with the Spurs doesnt really make any sense. 

Shit, if middling 1sts is the goal, just trading DJM for whatever pick package you can get makes far more sense. 

I'm not actively rooting for a trade.  I'm coming up with possibilities to remain competitive and still have a chance to be in the playoffs if we trade Trae.  

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, Mikey said:

Wait till you realize what the warriors did before they were a dynasty. Or what the spurs did to land Duncan. 

Warriors - Didn't tank.  They were bad for 100 years before they lucked into Steph Curry with the 8th pick.

Spurs - Didn't tank.  Star players were hurt, and they lost because of that.  They added Duncan to Robinson, Elliot...etc when they returned from injury.  

Are we really going to rehash an argument I've already won?

[Hawkish]

Just now, KB21 said:

Warriors - Didn't tank.  They were bad for 100 years before they lucked into Steph Curry with the 8th pick.

Spurs - Didn't tank.  Star players were hurt, and they lost because of that.  They added Duncan to Robinson, Elliot...etc when they returned from injury.  

Are we really going to rehash an argument I've already won?

I agree that these are poor comparisons, especially SA.  They are the definition of lucky with Tim Duncan.  

[macdaddy]

@Mikey @KB21

Move general tanking talk to another thread.  And please refrain from personal insults.  

[Mikey]

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Warriors - Didn't tank.  They were bad for 100 years before they lucked into Steph Curry with the 8th pick.

Spurs - Didn't tank.  Star players were hurt, and they lost because of that.  They added Duncan to Robinson, Elliot...etc when they returned from injury.  

Are we really going to rehash an argument I've already won?

Name a team that has won a championship being competitive. Just constantly in the 10-17ish range. It doesn’t exist 

you’re gonna say the bucks but just like the warriors who you say lucked into curry, they lucked into Giannis 

1 minute ago, Hawkish said:

Mikey — Do you think Quin would be on board with a youth-er movement?

For an extended period of time absolutely not. For one year he could get behind it 

[REHawksFan]

2 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

@Mikey @KB21

Move general tanking talk to another thread.  And please refrain from personal insults.  

Y'all gonna have to just move their posts to another thread I think.  There's no stopping it once it gets going.  

Or here's an idea......just dig into the archives and pull out the 600-page tanking thread from 2017.  It's not like there's any new thought on the topic.  

[KB21]

5 minutes ago, Mikey said:

Name a team that has won a championship being competitive. Just constantly in the 10-17ish range. It doesn’t exist 

you’re gonna say the bucks but just like the warriors who you say lucked into curry, they lucked into Giannis 

For an extended period of time absolutely not. For one year he could get behind it 

Denver Nuggets.

Next?