Tanking / Building a Championship Discussion

[Mikey]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

Denver Nuggets.

Next?

They drafted their best player in the second round. Good luck using that philosophy for team building

[shakes]

34 minutes ago, KB21 said:

No they didn't.  Their record is organic.  It wasn't a forced move.  They still focus on winning habits, which tanking teams do not do.  

oh yea, starting Sochan at PG for half the season while Jones rode the pine was definitely "organic" and "focusing on winning habits" 

[AHF]

Creating this thread for those who want to discuss all things tanking or about construction of a champion.

This can be things like:

1. What is tanking?  Is it the GM intentionally getting rid of good players or holding out good players in order to lose games and get a higher pick?  Is it the coach intentionally adjusting rotations to lose games to get higher picks?  Is it playing young players and not surrounding them with proven vets?
2. Does tanking work?  What results are achieved and how do they compare with teams who didn't tank?

I'm going to be transparent that we had several posters who absolutely spammed the boards after Budcox ruined the roster and Ressler/TS pulled the plug and decided to tank.  Right or wrong we are going to moderate this pretty aggressively if it becomes something that starts taking over threads.  Bring that discussion here to engage in it without any risk of being put on moderator preview, etc.

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, Mikey said:

They drafted their best player in the second round. Good luck using that philosophy for team building

You wanted an example of a team who built from being competitive to being a championship team.  I gave you an example.  I'll give you another example.  Milwaukee.  Two of the more recent championship teams.  Neither tanked.  Neither team had the #1 overall pick like the Hawks do now.  

[JeffS17]

10 minutes ago, Mikey said:

Name a team that has won a championship being competitive. Just constantly in the 10-17ish range. It doesn’t exist 

This framing is just off, dude.  That is how every single team wins a championship.  They consistently improve their record because their players develop together, get better, and build chemistry.  This is how the Spurs do it, this is how Golden State did it, this is how the Nuggets did it, etc.  Name a team that intentionally lost games with a losing culture then became competitive and won a chip?  Has that ever happened?  Look at Philly, Detroit, Charlotte, Knicks, Rockets, Magic, etc.  The list goes on.  

 

[Hawkish]

12 minutes ago, Mikey said:

They drafted their best player in the second round. Good luck using that philosophy for team building

What about Murray?

[KB21]

See my sig.

"Put it all together, and you get hopes and dreams of greatness -- but nothing remotely resembling assurances. Any objective look through NBA history suggests that "the Thunder model" is no model at all. Good luck with your tanking. If you get bad, you will get a high pick and you may even get a good player. But by far the most likely thing is that you'll be tanking again long before you make it to the promised land, or even the conference finals." -- Henry Abbott

 

[Mikey]

7 minutes ago, KB21 said:

You wanted an example of a team who built from being competitive to being a championship team.  I gave you an example.  I'll give you another example.  Milwaukee.  Two of the more recent championship teams.  Neither tanked.  Neither team had the #1 overall pick like the Hawks do now.  

Go look at the best players in the league and history. More often than not they are top 1-3 picks. If you think you’re just gonna luck into drafting the best players at a random spot in the draft then idk what to tell you. The hawks aren’t just gonna be competitive next year and land the best player in the class at pick 12 or whatever. But if they are bad and developing young players then add Flagg or whoever at the mix 1-3 they have a better chance at being good 

this is inherently truly and if you are saying otherwise you just are lying. Nobody is saying we need to actively be losing games for a string of years. We have our core what we just need is someone to be that guy and if the hawks trade for our picks back getting it in a loaded 25 and 26 draft class is much more possible with better odds 1-8 then being a play in team or luck into the 8th spot 

[Spud2nique]

Wait you started a thread by quoting somebody? That might be a first

[KB21]

“’Making our team worse’ is language that I would never use around our office,” Fields said. “I think that a competitive spirit is always gonna be at play. And that’s always going to be subjective. Maybe to you, we got worse. But to me, we got better.

[Mikey]

10 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

This framing is just off, dude.  That is how every single team wins a championship.  They consistently improve their record because their players develop together, get better, and build chemistry.  This is how the Spurs do it, this is how Golden State did it, this is how the Nuggets did it, etc.  Name a team that intentionally lost games with a losing culture then became competitive and won a chip?  Has that ever happened?  Look at Philly, Detroit, Charlotte, Knicks, Rockets, Magic, etc.  The list goes on.  

 

This example is an anomaly not the standard. You don’t draft franchise players in the secodn round or 13th overall 

[KB21]

1 minute ago, Mikey said:

Go look at the best players in the league and history. More often than not they are top 1-3 picks. If you think you’re just gonna luck into drafting the best players at a random spot in the draft then idk what to tell you. The hawks aren’t just gonna be competitive next year and land the best player in the class at pick 12 or whatever. But if they are bad and developing young players then add Flagg or whoever at the mix 1-3 they have a better chance at being good 

this is inherently truly and if you are saying otherwise you just are lying. Nobody is saying we need to actively be losing games for a string of years. We have our core what we just need is someone to be that guy and if the hawks trade for our picks back getting it in a loaded 25 and 26 draft class is much more possible with better odds 1-8 then being a play in team or luck into the 8th spot 

This is why teams who pick high in the lottery tend to continue to pick high in the lottery.  Atlanta has a golden opportunity right now.  They got lucky and won the lottery.  They can take a future star in Sarr.  There is no need to try and get a #1 pick in the next two drafts.  It never works.  It has never worked.  It will never work.  

[Mikey]

12 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

This framing is just off, dude.  That is how every single team wins a championship.  They consistently improve their record because their players develop together, get better, and build chemistry.  This is how the Spurs do it, this is how Golden State did it, this is how the Nuggets did it, etc.  Name a team that intentionally lost games with a losing culture then became competitive and won a chip?  Has that ever happened?  Look at Philly, Detroit, Charlotte, Knicks, Rockets, Magic, etc.  The list goes on.  

 

Not to mention you act like I said we need to string multiple years of tanking together? I said we need to maximize our odds of being bad for a ONE year to land a top pick to add to this core. Not keep Murray around to be the 12th best team 

if yoy want to try your luck drafting franchise talent 8-14 every year go for it. That is not realistic. Picks 1-3 maximize those chances 

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

This is why teams who pick high in the lottery tend to continue to pick high in the lottery.  Atlanta has a golden opportunity right now.  They got lucky and won the lottery.  They can take a future star in Sarr.  There is no need to try and get a #1 pick in the next two drafts.  It never works.  It has never worked.  It will never work.  

Sarr is not a franchise guy. He is NOT the player you build around. He is a player you build WITH

[Mikey]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

This is why teams who pick high in the lottery tend to continue to pick high in the lottery.  Atlanta has a golden opportunity right now.  They got lucky and won the lottery.  They can take a future star in Sarr.  There is no need to try and get a #1 pick in the next two drafts.  It never works.  It has never worked.  It will never work.  

Not to mention we don’t even need 1. We just need to get into 1-6 range for next class 

[KB21]

1 minute ago, Mikey said:

Not to mention we don’t even need 1. We just need to get into 1-6 range for next class 

Ask Detroit how helpful that is.  

[Mikey]

Just now, KB21 said:

Ask Detroit how helpful that is.  

You problem is you think all drafts and front offices are equal. 

[JeffS17]

8 minutes ago, Mikey said:

This example is an anomaly not the standard. You don’t draft franchise players in the secodn round or 13th overall 

Again, you're framing this incorrectly -- no one drafts championship caliber players out of college, you still have to develop them.  You're missing the massive component of a championship team that is the development of not only the top top talent, but all the players.  Don't get twisted because the NBA markets individuals so heavily that one player is the difference maker.  The best player on a championship team might get all the credit, but that is on the back of a well developed team and team chemistry.  Plenty of talent gets wasted in shitty programs because of shitty orgs.  And no well respected coaching staff is going to want to intentionally lose games, including the GM intentionally not fielding competitive rosters or sidelining guys for "contusions" all season.

When you have a well-oiled development program, you can turn high potential draft picks that want to put work in into very good players.  See: Kawhi Leonard, Jamal Murray, Klay Thompson, and many many more.  You don't need to tank and try to get a top 5 pick.  That's, literally and figuratively, praying for a lottery ticket and a quick n easy path to a chip.  We're not winning a chip by subscribing to a get rich quick scam.

[KB21]

1 minute ago, JeffS17 said:

Again, you're framing this incorrectly -- no one drafts championship caliber players out of college, you still have to develop them.  You're missing the massive component of a championship team that is the development of not only the top top talent, but all the players.  Don't get twisted because the NBA markets individuals so heavily that one player is the difference maker.  The best player on a championship team might get all the credit, but that is on the back of a well developed team and team chemistry.  Plenty of talent gets wasted in shitty programs because of shitty orgs.  And no well respected coaching staff is going to want to intentionally lose games, including the GM intentionally not fielding competitive rosters or sidelining guys for "contusions" all season.

When you have a well-oiled development program, you can turn high potential draft picks that want to put work in into very good players.  See: Kawhi Leonard, Jamal Murray, Klay Thompson, and many many more.  You don't need to tank and try to get a top 5 pick.  That's, literally and figuratively, praying for a lottery ticket and a quick n easy path to a chip.  We're not winning a chip by subscribing to a get rich quick scam.

The pro tanking guys have always had the belief that all you have to do is be bad, draft a top player, and you will suddenly be a championship team.  It's so foolish!  

[Hawkish]

6 minutes ago, Mikey said:

You problem is you think all drafts and front offices are equal. 

If we believe our coaching staff is championship caliber and they support this significant retooling, I’m on board.  I just have more negative rebuilding memories than positive.  

My primary hesitation trading Trae is helping SA build a juggernaut.  Envy is a personal problem. 
 

Trae | Vassell | Sochan | Wemby is a really nasty core.  
 

Pumping the brakes on a rebuild for a moment.  
 

Can Trae | [DJ return] | JJ | Sarr rival the SGA | Williams | Giddy | Chet core?

Edited May 15 by Hawkish

[BangHolman]

Hawks tanked for roughly 3 seasons. Drafted their best player in season one (Luka) and traded him for Trae (Lucky is semi-worked) and a Pick, then drafted Hunter and Cam in the lottery the following season, and the Onyeka the next. We lucked into a quicker than normal turnaround. Intentionally tanking, doesn't turn your team around. Look at how long teams sit in a dumpster fire, looking at you Detroit, Washington, Charlotte, Orlando for years, Sacramento for 20 years, Minny for years. It took Philly forever to get it right, and OKC is an exception to the rule. The best player we've drafted since Trae is Jalen at 20.