Tanking / Building a Championship Discussion

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

The Hawks aren't better without Trae than with him.  Just stop with that nonsense.  They were better with DJM as PG than they were with DJM as SG and Trae as PG.  But they are FAR better with Trae as PG and anyone else as SG than they are with DJM as PG.  Trae is the far better player.  

That's debatable but for sure he doesn't transform them into this championship caliber team either

[REHawksFan]

3 minutes ago, Afro said:

It's picks. And good picks. To me this is arguing to trade Trae for worse picks than we traded to get DJM(even though theyre the same lol).

The Spurs got unprotected picks with the chance that the Hawks might suck. The Hawks are taking those same picks back, in this scenario, KNOWING they wont be(at least as far as the whole "were not gonna be bad, theyll be 15-25 picks" point)

It's convoluted because they're *our* picks, and this isnt something that really ever happens. 

 

But when Boston traded away the big 3 or the Nets traded KD, they got picks that at least had some chance at being a lottery ticket. Trading with the Spurs and continuing to be good is the opposite of that. 

 

That all makes sense, but I disagree that it really matters.  You don't do the deal aiming to get the 25 pick and 26 pick swap.  You do the deal A. because Trae forces it; and B. to get Vassell and the current picks.  The earlier you get picks, even in a perceived poor draft, the sooner you can develop them into quality players.  I just don't think what you are arguing about is that big of a deal.  I understand it better now, but I think I was missing it earlier because it just doesn't seem like a big deal to me.  

Also, I don't think there's any world where NOP trades Jones/Ingram/Daniels/LAL pick for Trae.  I could be way off, but I don't see it.  

[Afro]

I never argued we should tank. I never argued we should trade trae. I think retooling is fine(if Trae asks out)

I am specifically discussing one single argument. 

That the Spurs offer is a good deal/best deal. 

You can get good picks for Trae from somewhere. The Pels for example. 

Arguing for picks in the 15-25 range over the chance at a lottery ticket is weird. 

 

Lets take the whole "our picks" out of it and replace them another team and lottery protected picks(what in theory getting our picks back is if we stay good). These aren't supposed to make financial sense lol

Boston offers derrick White, pritchett, tillman and 3 of their own lottery protected picks(needs something else but use your imagination lol)

Pelicans offer Herb, Dyson, LA pick, Ingram(who reroutes for other stuff/picks)

Even if you factor in long term development, good g league, yada yada, the Pelicans offer is much better and the Boston offer isn't even really all that great. 

Edited May 15 by Afro

[Afro]

5 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

That all makes sense, but I disagree that it really matters.  You don't do the deal aiming to get the 25 pick and 26 pick swap.  You do the deal A. because Trae forces it; and B. to get Vassell and the current picks.  The earlier you get picks, even in a perceived poor draft, the sooner you can develop them into quality players.  I just don't think what you are arguing about is that big of a deal.  I understand it better now, but I think I was missing it earlier because it just doesn't seem like a big deal to me.  

Also, I don't think there's any world where NOP trades Jones/Ingram/Daniels/LAL pick for Trae.  I could be way off, but I don't see it.  

I don't know how we can argue that a chance at role players, and maybe something slightly better with pick 4, is a better plan than getting guys who are already good role players and a chance at cooper flagg(just an example. I dont care who you pick). 

 

It feels like a lot of this discussion is happening in a Spurs only vacuum. I'm not trying to say to not take it if its the ONLY thing. Just that arguing like it is the only thing and the best thing, when it most certainly wouldnt be, is weird. 

[macdaddy]

31 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

That's debatable but for sure he doesn't transform them into this championship caliber team either

But that's almost everyone in the league on their own.   Tatum by himself doesn't transform a team.  Embiid, Booker, SGA.  Almost no one can transform a team on their own.  Even Jokic couldn't win in the playoffs without Murray.  Doesn't mean he can't be the best or second best player on a championship team. 

[KB21]

IMO, the best thing for the Hawks is to convince Trae that while he may not compete for a championship this year with a core of him along with JJ, Sarr, OO, and Kobe, that's the best way for him to compete for a championship before his contract is up in Atlanta.  

[AHF]

33 minutes ago, KB21 said:

IMO, the best thing for the Hawks is to convince Trae that while he may not compete for a championship this year with a core of him along with JJ, Sarr, OO, and Kobe, that's the best way for him to compete for a championship before his contract is up in Atlanta.  

I'm excited about the idea of this too.  We'll need to show it on the court but you can add Hunter, CC and DJM (or whoever they are traded for if one or more is moved which I expect to be the case) to the mix along with the potential for impactful play from AJ, Gueye, and CC (or whoever CC is traded for if he is moved).  The prospect of a strong 8 or 9 man rotation emerging from that is pretty good.

[KB21]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

I'm excited about the idea of this too.  We'll need to show it on the court but you can add Hunter, CC and DJM (or whoever they are traded for if one or more is moved which I expect to be the case) to the mix along with the potential for impactful play from AJ, Gueye, and CC (or whoever CC is traded for if he is moved).  The prospect of a strong 8 or 9 man rotation emerging from that is pretty good.

There has been some talk that Brooklyn has a little buyer's remorse over Cam Johnson's contract.  I'd be willing to swap Hunter for Johnson 1 to 1.  Johnson isn't a great POA defender, but offensively, he's a better fit beside Trae.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

There has been some talk that Brooklyn has a little buyer's remorse over Cam Johnson's contract.  I'd be willing to swap Hunter for Johnson 1 to 1.  Johnson isn't a great POA defender, but offensively, he's a better fit beside Trae.

The 82games data from last year suggests that Johnson is more effective as a defender at the SF spot.  Not sure if that is because of how he was used or not.  His high volume, high efficiency shooting would definitely work offensively with Trae and his ability to play both SF and PF would work nicely if you are running a shooting challenged frontcourt of JJ, Sarr and OO.

[Afro]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

IMO, the best thing for the Hawks is to convince Trae that while he may not compete for a championship this year with a core of him along with JJ, Sarr, OO, and Kobe, that's the best way for him to compete for a championship before his contract is up in Atlanta.  

Completely agree. 

And Im not really sure how "pissed off" Trae really is or if I believe some of the reports that hes demanding a star right now. 

Trae seems calculated. Trae has said he wants to be in Atlanta and compete in Atlanta. Those are the things we know. We also can assume that he's unhappy with the direction the Hawks have taken since the ECF, we all are. Idk if all of that translates into "Get me Giannis or I bounce" rather than just "make the team better than this mess we had last year"

I also think since Trae is calculated, he's not going to want the personal blowback of demanding a trade after his team makes legitimate moves to improve the roster. Which at this present moment, the Hawks look like they are trying to do. Even if it's just trading DJM for a better wing and adding Sarr. That is the Hawks trying. I don't think demanding out after that earns Trae the rosiest of reputations, which I believe matters to him. 

 

All that to say, I don't think we should all be panicking that Trae is gonna ask out tomorrow. 

Edited May 15 by Afro

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

IMO, the best thing for the Hawks is to convince Trae that while he may not compete for a championship this year with a core of him along with JJ, Sarr, OO, and Kobe, that's the best way for him to compete for a championship before his contract is up in Atlanta.  

Convince Trae? If you have to appease a guy who is barely an all-star of anything, It is time to move on.  Keep the team player in Murray.  You'll be better off

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Convince Trae? If you have to appease a guy who is barely an all-star of anything, It is time to move on.  Keep the team player in Murray.  You'll be better off

Trae is a top 15 player and the #1 PG in the entire league.  

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Trae is a top 15 player and the #1 PG in the entire league.  

If teams still believe that then good.  Get that Haul and keep it moving

[Mikey]

3 hours ago, KB21 said:

The pro tanking guys have always had the belief that all you have to do is be bad, draft a top player, and you will suddenly be a championship team.  It's so foolish!  

Wait till you guys realize you can develop the 5th player as good as the 11th. But inherently the 5th ranked player is going to be who you believe is better. 

Y’all logic is so flawed it makes no sense. The rookie isn’t going to be in a better environment suddenly because you are in the middle vs bottom 5. Your environment is the same. You’d rather the 5th pick over 12th every time 

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, Mikey said:

Wait till you guys realize you can develop the 5th player as good as the 11th. But inherently the 5th ranked player is going to be who you believe is better. 

Y’all logic is so flawed it makes no sense. The rookie isn’t going to be in a better environment suddenly because you are in the middle vs bottom 5. Your environment is the same. You’d rather the 5th pick over 12th every time 

What makes the environment different?  "We are trying to win games" vs "We are trying to lose games".  That makes all the difference in the world.  You don't develop winning habits when you are actively trying to throw/lose games.  

[Mikey]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

What makes the environment different?  "We are trying to win games" vs "We are trying to lose games".  That makes all the difference in the world.  You don't develop winning habits when you are actively trying to throw/lose games.  

Nobody is throwing games lmao. Young teams are bad for a reason. They aren’t throwing games they just don’t have the talent or experience. Keeping a player like Dejounte isn’t helping winning habits when he’s a locker room cancer and would just take all the shots 

[KB21]

12 minutes ago, Mikey said:

Nobody is throwing games lmao. Young teams are bad for a reason. They aren’t throwing games they just don’t have the talent or experience. Keeping a player like Dejounte isn’t helping winning habits when he’s a locker room cancer and would just take all the shots 

The 76ers absolutely threw games.  The Hawks intentionally hired a bad coach to lose games when they hired Pierce.  

[Mikey]

27 minutes ago, KB21 said:

The 76ers absolutely threw games.  The Hawks intentionally hired a bad coach to lose games when they hired Pierce.  

We aren’t talking about the sixers. We are talking about the potential 24-25 hawks. And your comment about Lloyd shows your lack of knowledge about how he was an how he was viewed as an assistant. He was wifey regarded and hired as a DEVELOPMENTAL coach which is exactly what happened under him. When it was time to win games it was time to move on 

[Mikey]

29 minutes ago, KB21 said:

The 76ers absolutely threw games.  The Hawks intentionally hired a bad coach to lose games when they hired Pierce.  

Not to mention the sixers lack of championships isn’t because of tanking. It’s because of health and poor draft choices and other mismanagement like giving Tobias Harris a max contract. The hawks are not in the position today because of tanking they are in the position because of bad lottery luck, weak classes, and poor choices again. Luka doesn’t want to come here and then our star makes us trade for djm. None of that is because of tanking 

[KB21]

4 minutes ago, Mikey said:

We aren’t talking about the sixers. We are talking about the potential 24-25 hawks. And your comment about Lloyd shows your lack of knowledge about how he was an how he was viewed as an assistant. He was wifey regarded and hired as a DEVELOPMENTAL coach which is exactly what happened under him. When it was time to win games it was time to move on 

You can't develop talent without focusing on winning habits, and you can't focus on winning habits when you are trying to lose games.  Lloyd Pierce was hired for one reason and one reason only.  He was hired to lose games, and they knew he wasn't good enough to win games.  Bud was forced out because they knew he could milk more wins out of the group they gave him than a bad coach would.  So, we hired Pierce.  We lost games.  We didn't develop players properly.  That's the result of tanking.  That's the only result you will ever get with tanking.