You guys really kill me

[phoostal]

I know people have debated this to death. So I'm not going to argue the fact of some us rooting us to lose.

But, what I do have a beef with is that you root for us to lose a game like we lost last night. That in my opinion is ridiculus.

If we are going to lose I would much rather get our A@#'s handed to us. Then go into double OT and lose to a team with 48 wins. It reminds of the triple OT game we lost to Houston.

These games the Hawks don't deserve to lose. They played their butt's off tonight. And what do they get for it? Is their so called fans saying I'm glad they lost. When you play with that much effort and heart, you don't deserve to have fans rooting you on to lose.

Last night we lost and I was just sick to my stomach on the way we lost. I understand the fact that losing helps the draft position. But, last night this team did not deserve to lose and it should have the support of their fans. To leave it out there on the court like they did and to have people say I'm glad they lost is mind boggling.

The kicker is people on here want them to play these kind of games every game. Well, I'm not in that boat I would rather not be in the game at all and lose, then actually come up short in the final minutes. When a team plays like they did last night, I want them to win. They don't deserve to lose with the passion they displayed last night.

P

[CHORO44]

You are right this has been debated enough already. That being said this is the only year I want the Hawks to tank as we should end up with two good picks to build with. I have to give our current team love for competing but the makeshift team is not the future.

[Wretch]

I don't feel right rooting for the Hawks to lose - especially in games like last night when they go out and fight hard.

At the same time, these games are absolutely meaningless. Most of these guys are playing for a contract that has a damn good chance of coming from some other team; and with nobody coming to the games now anyway, do we think that these same players care about a) the fairweather fans that come out and root for the Lakers, Kings, Knicks, 76ers, or Magic or b) The very small sect of actual Hawks fans that watch them on TV?

But we should care about what they do...

It is VERY likely that these "ending contract" players could care less about the laughable fanbase in Atlanta, are playing hard simply to earn a contract, and will jet at the drop of a hat come summer - giving us...a few extra nights to cheer for the franchise. Yay. Additionally, I'm sure many of these guys just want the season to be over with so they can spend time with their families and vacation.

Right now, wins are pointless. Winning is pointless to everyone except those guys looking to get paid. Even in Chicago where they don't need the lottery and have all those young guys who NEED to win - Scott Skiles has gone on record questioning the value of the remainder of the season.

So, while I don't root for my team to lose because it feels wrong, seeing them win now does absolutely nothing for me. If anything, it's actually frustrating to see them pick up the pace, fighting to win meaningless games now...as opposed to early in the season when it mattered...with a bunch of "rented" players no less - who could give a sh#t less about the franchise. And all that says nothing about how the wins push us further away from drafting the potential that we need.

Anyone catch this:

"Who's this [famous Hawks player inside the nesting dolls] Bob Sura?"

"Uhh, I dunno...I ain't brushed up on my Hawks history."

Pfft...

End already.

[phoostal]

My main point is I understand losing and I accept it. I agree it will help us with the lottery. Even though the funny thing is that we could lose the rest and still not finish any lower than 4th worst (5th in the draft thanks to Charlotte).

Anyways when a team plays as hard as it did last night, regradless of what type of players the roster has on it. They should have some support from their fans. If you weren't disappointed last night that they lost that game.

Then I have to question if you really are a fan of this team.

I understand that losing will help their draft position, but the way they played last night deserves some support. Other than geez I hope they lose they are ruining it for the draft. I enjoy seeing a team compete.

But, let's hope we get a top 3 pick and it doesn't turn out to be a E. Curry or T. Chandler and these guys give this kind of effort next year. If not do we root for them to keep losing every year until they strike gold with their draft pick?

P

[Nicholasp27]

u enjoy seeing a team compete

yet u'd rather see them get blown out if they are going to ultimately lose a game?

i love seeing a team compete AND I realize we must lose these games, thus I WANT them to compete EVERY night and also lose EVERY night...that is a win-win situation in my book

[phoostal]

Not really. How is it good to see a team give it's heart and soul to a game to ultimately lose everytime in the end?

That makes you happy. You really must enjoy torturing and suffering.

It's just demoralizing to lose that way. I'd rather them just not show up and lose. That is a win/win situation. Not having a chance to win is better than possiblly winning, right?

Nothing is accomplished this year by this team competing I agree with everyone on this matter. But, if this team does show up and compete, especially against teams they aren't suppose to win against. They should have support from their so called fans to win. Otherwise they should just lay down.

That's what everyone wants from them anyways. You guys want them to lose. They should just lay down. Why do you guys care if they compete? Answer me that. Why would you want them to play hard, if you want them to lose?

P

[Nicholasp27]

i want them to play hard because

I enjoy a close game more than a blowout

I want our team to embrace a new "leave it on the court, run-n-gun, try your hardest" philosophy

I want Terry's value to raise for the impending trade that needs to happen

I want them to show the random fans that come to the odd game that we still have a competitive team without the 4 semi-allstar core that we had

I want them to attract some fans by their fun style of play

I want them to learn how to stay in it until the last minute as opposed to the blowing it in 3rd quarters they love to do

I want free agents to respect us

I want free agents to feel we're just a lotto pick plus them away from more wins

[CBAreject]

Nicholas, you have lectured me about being a jerk, and I deserved it. See, it's frustrating trying to construct logical arguments on this board, only to have them fall on ign'ant ears.

There are two things at work here:

1) It seems our only hope as a franchise is a little lotto luck. That said, we need to lose as much as possible so that we can improve our chances at a high pick. Winning does nothing now but decrease those chances. What's to debate?

2) We also agree that we need to be able to sign a high profile free agent with all of our newfound cap space. BUT, be advised--that will not happen this offseason. No, it will happen next. All things equal, we'd prefer to have something going into next season to pair with said lotto choice, so that we can be a team on the rise. What we need is a skeleton of a team that hustles and will give enough effort next year. SO! we want to lose, but we want to lose close, dammit. We want to say, 'Dang, with just one more player, we're a playoff team next year!'

Why is this hard for people to understand, Nicky? I tell Phoostal that 29 wins is no better than 26, and he responds with what? "Well, if some team with 29 wins gets the #1 pick, you'll wish that we had won some extra games."

GUH? I repeat, GUHHHHH? That makes no sense, Nick. You can never say, 'Oh, if we'd won more games we would've probably picked higher.' It just doesn't work that way, and it's far too draining to try to explain the reason why to someone like Phoostal...so I didn't. You, sir, shouldn't, either. That's a whole lotta commas for such a short sentence, but I assure you that they all were necessary. Perhaps I'm trying to appear intelligent again

[Wretch]

I've been a Hawks fan since 1985 and I'm a fan of the game. I could root for anyone and still call myself a Hawks fan.

But who would I be supporting right now? I watched JT since we traded Mookie for him. I was there when Crawford went off for 30 with a screwed up shoulder in the playoffs. I was heartbroken when Hendu sat out with viral pancreatitis and was uplifted during his subsequent "breakout" season.

The rest of these guys? Where were they last year this time? Most were not here less than 2 months ago and there is a chance that NONE of them will be here this off season. Even if there were scores of fans out there rooting for them, the reality is that these guys are playing with the intent of signing anywhere that will pay them. They are mercenaries in effect, who neither come out to entertain me nor have any serious interest in the franchise beyond April 14th. Yet, I owe them my loyalty as a fan???

I've watched Stephen Jackson for a season now, and I like him. If you were to ask him what's more important to him right now...winning or getting paid, what do you think his response would be.

...?

You wouldn't have to ask him because he has implied as much since the day he turned down San Antonio.

As for everyone else who has not been with the franchise longer than 3 months...they have their fans from wherever they came, but just because they put on that red, black, and gold it doesn't mean that they've won instant loyalty from me.

More than any player on the court right now, I am a fan of the franchise. These mercenaries go out and win these meaningless games and they hurt the franchise. So in essence, they are the opposition. Yet, they are Hawks players, and NBA players...and as a fan of the game and of the Hawks...I don't feel right rooting against them.

There's really no positive way to look at it. It's a you're damned if you don't and you're damned if you do situation. For me, it's simple: these guys owe me nothing and I owe them nothing. The games are absolutely meaningless - except in the loss column, where they have MUCH value. I appreciate their losses and thier wins do nothing for me. In the long run, the losses help the franchise - which I root for above all else, so here's hoping that these guys finish "bad" enough to get us the greatest chance of drafting our future.

...

As for who we draft and how long we hope to be in the lottery... It's all a roll of the dice. It's up to chance and good management. We need to be looking at improving the franchise in anyway we can. Packaging JT with Milwaukee's pick may be the answer. TMac could play a big role in reshaping our future. Okafur or Howard or Smith or Livingston may change things for us...we just need to go with the best option at the right time.

And our plans change as we acquire pieces to the puzzle. As long as we are a team devoid of talent, I say let it go until we strike gold or sign a premier free agent. If we got young studs like Chicago, LAC, Denver, or Phoenix...then what's the point of the lottery? I'll scream my guts out for them to win even if our record completely sucks. I did so before and I will again.

Right now though, we just need to let this season slide and start looking at June (or the lottery drawing during the playoffs).

[phoostal]

CBAReject, I have also tried to explain to you reasons before we traded off Wallace that it would be better to keep him, but only to fall on deaf ears. So why bother to explain that again as well.

Let me ask you this what if the team with a higher win total gets a better draft pick? What will you say? What if this team is a failure next year and their pick doesn't pan out? What happens? Then do you promote losing again next season. When do you stop promoting losing?

I gave you an option of how this team could have been rebuilt without trading Wallace and still trying to win. Only to fall on deaf ears.

It's funny you and Nicholas give me the same reasons in losing, I gave you for keeping Wallace and trying to make the last playoff spot.

It's very ironic. I said everything Nicholas said in his last post(along with a couple of other options)that would help this team. What making the playoffs would look to the eyes of others in this league and so on. But you dismissed it with a laugh and that losing and improving our draft position is better.

Now, according to you guys we should lose and demonstrate those traits I said we should do by winning. It doesn't work both ways. When you lose you lose. No matter how close or if you get blown out.

Free agents don't want to come to a loser period, no matter how close the games. Do you think high profile free agents know that the Hawks just gave the Grizz a run for their money? Or that they have played well against teams over 500? I don't think so they are worried about their own team to care about what the Hawks are doing or how they are losing I should say. The time people take notice is in the playoffs.

Rookies that we draft that may end up being good don't want to stay with a loser. Look at the Clippers with Brand, Magetter, Odom and Miller. None of them wanted to stay the only reason Brand and Magette are there is because the Clips matched their offers.

CBAReject you can sit there and think you know all. That's fine. But your opinion is no better than mine. Just don't try to say you know how it is going to work you don't. Or that you are so intellegent compared to others, that I just don't have time to write or waste my breath. Please get off your high horse. Your S(&* stinks like everyone else.

You don't know what players think, neither do I. But, I can guess that players want to play for a team that is winning.

You bring up this argument of winning 29 to compare to 26. I don't give a rat's a@# about that. The point that I was making in this post to begin with, is that the team played hard last night. They deserve support for what they did on that court. Not guys like you coming on saying geez I'm glad they lost.

I agree. With the shape this team is in, they need to lose to get the most balls in the lottery. Because right now there is no better option for this team. We have to rely on trying to get a superstar in the lottery. Even though that isn't an exact science. According to some though it is a sure thing. But, when they play like they did lastnight, I hope they win. I think that effort should be rewarded.

The fact is the Hawks are not going to be worse than the Bulls or Magic. The Wizards are the only team that matters right now and they are a game ahead of them.

We will see how it unfolds. Bottom line is the team deserved more support for their effort last night than saying I'm glad they lost. That is all I'm trying to say. I'm not arguing the fact that it is better for the team to lose to improve draft position. But, last night's effort didn't deserve us getting a loss or fans saying I'm glad we lost. Thus that is why I said if we lose I would rather get blown out. It doesn't matter.

Nicholas please don't hand me that crap that you gave me either. It doesn't matter how they lose at this point. Give me a break.

The arguments you guys give me for why this team needs to lose in order for it to be successful in the long run. Has no justification on how they lose to end this year. So please save the drama.

You claim I want them to try hard and still lose for these reasons. It doesn't matter a loss is a loss. To improve Terry's trade value it isn't going to get any higher unless he starts averaging over 50pts a game in the last eight.

So really I can't agree with those reasons. You lose, you lose, no matter how it is done.

I forgot Cleveland was losing some heart breakers last year. Didn't they? No, they were getting their butt's handed to them. They were tanking to make sure they finished in last. To be honest do you think people other than Cleveland fans remember how they were losing last year. So who cares how you lose, just so they lose. Right? That's what you guys want.

CBAReject maybe you aren't seeing my philosophy and maybe I'm not seeing yours. But, the fact is that no one's opinion is better than the others. The only difference is that we are going to see if yours works first hand. Mine we will never know because we didn't keep Wallace. Just don't try to come across as the almighty in your posts.

I will always support this team and I am all for getting the best draft position. This team just deserved better support from last night's effort. But, you best beleive I will be picking this rebuilding process apart if things don't start going the Hawks way. Starting with the draft.

If we don't end up with a top 3 pick, then it was really stupid to give up Wallace. Like I have said maybe Knight can trade into the top 3. As a matter a fact it would be a must for Knight to trade up into the top 3. For this rebuilding process to get off on the right foot.

P

[phoostal]

Not arguing your point in losing, just thought the team deserved more support than geez that was a close one I'm glad we lost. They deserved to win and it would have been nice to see them pull it out from their effor they gave us.

Also, get ready for the next phase in sports were there won't be franchise there will be corporations. Not to say they aren't now. But, meaning they are going to be the following teams:

Nike Lakers, Reebok Knicks, McDonalds Bucks, etc.

Teams won't be aasociated with a city soon. Just the way things are going. I guess you will be able to root for your favorite business.

P

[Wretch]

I'll be long dead before that happens. Still, my team will be my team no matter who holds them up financially. Where a team is based doesn't matter...what matters is watching them stomp the sh#t out of someone and rubbing it in someone else's face!

Seriously, though...

A team is a team. If they were the Microsoft Hawks, I'd still want them to be in the best possible position to improve. I would want them to do what's best for the franchise. If my team is losing and is composed of 80% mercenaries...then I am really not interested in them winning; and losing helps more.

What's really funny is that these damn dudes don't care about winning! I mean, it's nice for them to go out and say, "hey, we kicked Dallas' @ss!" And it looks good on their NBA resume...but above all else, they are looking to get paid, some are just looking to stay in the NBA.

They aren't draft picks that we've locked up for 3 years. They aren't signed to long, fat contracts and they could care less about MY opinion of them. And that's fine with me, there is no reason why they should. At the same time, I don't owe them anything. If you want them to go out and give it their all and fatten up that resume...that's cool.

Me...?

I could care less. I will care when our roster is filled out and the games start to matter. Yes, they deserve some support - from whoever their fans are; if I were at the game and they won...and I got to speak to JT or Sura, the last thing on my mind would be damning them for winning. I'd tell them how I feel, but I would tell them how much I like their game and how hard they played - then I'd ask for an autograph.

[phoostal]

Very funny. Believe me I don't think any NBA player gives a damn. I learned that by gambling on BBall. That is the stupidest sport you could bet on. I learned that the hard way. I think college is worse than pros. The pros don't give a damn. Like you said they are probably discussing which nightclub they are going to that night or which chick they will be banging once the game is over. That's why it was nice to see some effort last night.

By the way I suggest just gambling on football than any other sport. It's harder to fix those games.

P

[Nicholasp27]

yes, a loss is a loss is a loss

however, I, personally, would rather watch us fight till the last seconds tick off the clock and lose by 1-3 points rather than lose by 30, never being closer than 7 points from the opponents

that is my opinion, and i'm sticking to it

if u'd rather they lose big, then that's fine, to each his own

but i'd rather watch an exciting game, which at the very least may spark the hawks organization to build an energetic, running give-it-your-all team instead of a pass, back-up, wait 10 seconds, backup some more, wait 5 seconds, pass out to the guarded man on the perimeter and take the wild shot with a hand in the face with 1 second on the shot clock

that these scrubs are playing teams so closely may make the difference between us having a great fun team in 4 years and us having a mediocre boring team in 4 years

and even if not, it's still more fun for me and i'm sure it's more fun for the casual fans as well...

and u can stop talking about lotto positioning and what the results end up being this year...i don't care if the last lotto team gets pick #1 and we get pick #8, i will maintain that losing was still the best course because it raised our odds...

just like in Vegas, you can't look at results and say "we shoulda done this or shoulda done that"...all u can do is put urself in the best statistical position to win

p.s. if just one person who watched last night's game became a fan of the hawks, then they were rewarded much more than a W in a meaningless game

[AHF]

I have to agree that not all losses are the same. Denver last season lost a ton of games but started an environment where people worked their rears off and played high intensity basketball that carried over into this season despite only winning 17 games. For that reason, I would also prefer we lose all the remainder of our games by a small and competitive margin rather than getting blown out like the Chicago Bulls where you cna develop an atmosphere where losing becomes the expectation. IMO, Denver and Chicago were both pitiful in terms of record last season but worlds apart as far as effort and that has been a factor in their success this year.

[phoostal]

I think the difference in that example is that Denver kept their head coach. I think we all feel that Stotts is going to be out the door. So that means a new coach, new philosophy and new attitude.

Not to mention the only ones we technically care about playing hard is Diaw, Hansen, Crawford, Henderson and Terry. Since they are the only ones for sure that will be back. Barring a trade in the off season.

The Bulls and Cavs have changed coaches this year as well. Due to their lackadasical play. So I really don't think it is necessary for the team to play hard since Stotts is a lame duck and that many of these guys are going to be gone as well.

P

[KB21]

....the team is playing hard and is responding to Terry Stotts's coaching. He is in much the same situation that Jeff Bzdelik was in last season, considering that circumstances beyond his control have left him with a very limited team in terms of talent, but he has those players playing hard and playing within the style he likes.

I think there should be strong consideration to keep Terry Stotts. I don't necessarily feel that he is as lame a duck as many think, and based from strictly a coaching standpoint, I do not think Doc Rivers is an improvement over what we have.

[BlackHawkDown]

Why do you even watch the games? The team is garbage, we have to start from scratch with Top draft picks, the next Jordan, the next T-Mac, the next KG and the next Shaq are all out there lets talk about who that player or players is/are because the team "bores me Charlie Murphy"