This is a bad bad bad bad team!

[tmac13]

Last season we won 28 games, we may not get close to that mark this year. We only have 2 players that are capable starters on any other team. Outside of Walker and Harrington we have a large collection of iffy bench players , NBDLers , and injury prone older players. While I hate to be harsh on the younger players, Chills looks bad. Being slow and being a bad shooter doesn't usually translate into being a successful NBA 2 guard. Kenny Anderson is an injury waiting to happen, Delk is already out, Willis is 65 years old, Collier is a decent backup center, DROB is awful(this is the dumbest move yet by BK), Diaw is a guy that plays 3 positions poorly, but none well, JSmooth is 3 years away, Donta and Ivey seem like the exact same player..both might be defensive point guard types in 2 or 3 years, Barry is another decent backup....Unless BK can find a gem in other teams discards, this is gonna be a long long season.

[Diesel]

I don't see reason to be this pessimistic.

I think in Walker/Harrington we have a duo who will play well together. I think the add on's to that will be Barry/Diaw/Anderson.

Now we do have a weak spot at C. We do have a weak spot at Bench Scoring. We do have young players. We do have a coach who has not been a pro coach before.

There will be growing pains, but I suppose that in the end, we will be a playoff quality team as far as the east goes. I think we are a lot stronger than other teams in the East.

And really, with one trade, we would be pretty good.

[Wretch]

We watch one really bad game, halfway through the preseason, and all of a sudden Knight is a moron and the Hawks are going to have a 10 win season. Then to add to the madness, people are judging the entire career of our rookies (and the others around the league) based on...what...a handful of games in their rookie seasons?

WTF...??? How old are you people and how long have you been watching basketball? It's not that bad...but it is bad.

Let's start with AW/AH:

I think Walker needs to go. Yes, shoot me. Stab me. Slap me in the face and tell me how badly this team needs him. Tell me that without him, we'd be lucky to win 15 games. Then tell me what's the difference between winning 15 games and winning 30... I like Toine, but the basketball centers around his presence on the floor. He is VERY active in the offense and unless he has a career year in assists, its going to force the young guys to the backseat, buckled up extremely tight for the ride.

I don't think AL is the same kind of player. Although, he'll be the focus of the offense...and he'll need his touches, he's less polished and experienced as AW. He's a guy that could learn to play alongside and grow WITH the rookies...as opposed to the way that Antoine Walker CARRIES the youngsters. That's not to say that he's a bad player or anything, but I belive that his presence on the floor is going to SERIOUSLY slow down our guy's development.

I like that Chill is starting and getting PT...at least for now. But, we need to be like every other lottery team and PLAY THE YOUNG GUYS and let them get out there and mix it up. They give these guys minutes, they let them have shots, and they run plays for them. Good example: Miami. With many of these teams, there is no question about PT and where they entrust the future. I think with both AH and AW, the focus of the team has gone from development to trying to do something in the W column.

It's early, but there is a good possibility that it might be MUCH longer than we think before this team gets it going. Ironically, the one thing that we all appreciate about this team may be it's biggest flaw. The team is well balanced in terms of experience, but perhaps being at such dramatically different stages in their careers gives each of these guys a different perspective on what it takes to win. They'll all be playing different games on the court until they learn the team's identity. What's more, as I stated WAAAY back in the summer, most of our key players (even the coach) have their own agendas; specifically, I have seen the fight for alpha dog develop ever so subtly. And of course, none of this says nothing about how little time these guys have had to play together. Last night's game was a glaring example of all of that.

About Chill...

He's going to be good. His shot is absolutely hideous *shudder* But when he goes hard to the basket, he's a guy that can make things happen. He's going to get stronger, smarter, and more experienced...and his game going to the basket will be something to watch. What he really needs is to get more aggressive. Mark my words: there are going to be plenty of people eating crow over this pick.

Josh Smith...?

It's been said enough. He's young and it shows. What I like though, is the things that he tries to do. The biggest problem that I see though, is not that he can't do these things - but his confidence and timing are off. He needs to work on his perimeter game. That will be the biggest differnce. If he starts knocking down shots...then he will become a star.

Pedrag looks Awful...ungh...

Donta Smith doesn't look to be anything special. Might be a solid role player. Royal Ivey looks VERY solid. He won't be a star, but he could be starter material a few years down the road. He needs to adust to the pro game, like every other rookie, but he looks comfortable and capable out there.

Collier is a keeper, but not starter material at the pivot. Willis is going to be exactly what these young guys need. Woodson needs to keep hammering defense into these guys. Down the road, that will be the difference. I REALLY like that direction.

On a final note, I think AW should be traded at midseason. Showcase him, let him do his thing, then deal him to a contender. It's the best place for him and it's the best move for us. We need a PG. We need to swing a deal that brings us a good PG prospect...

I wonder what it would take to get Kirk Hinrich out of Chicago...

[Employee8]

Wretch,

What if there are no takers for Antoine, though? Remember that before being traded to Dallas, there were no other teams even interested in him. And Dallas only gave up a walking stiff in LaFrentz and career bench player(Jiri Welsch) for him...

Call me crazy but I think Walker would end up remaining here with the Hawks and would prefer to stay here if he can help it, not just for the money(god knows he has plenty of it) but for his pride(he does not want to be going from team to team all over the place). That said, if a contender DOES ask for his services, make sure that what we get back is A PG and/or CENTER 'cause anyone out there have better players to trade at that position than we do.

[Wretch]

That's why I said showcase him. In Dallas, he was 3rd or 4th option averaging career lows. He wasn't being advertised and wasn't able to really show his worth. Walker is a player. He's a true Allstar and he's worth more than what he's been dealt for.

I just don't think he's the right fit for this squad. His presence on the court changes the strategy of this team and the roles of our younger players. While we have assets, we need to keep an eye on what we can get for them.

[OGRat]

Walker does not call the plays and make sure that the team runs them. Right now he dominates the ball, but that's because the offense is not working. The coach has not done his job, and players do not know what to do. I may be just a matter of time, but players in doubt, give the ball to the most talented offensive player and watch him go to work. Right now, Walker is the only one with the mentality to attack the basket.

The coach is the one who should put things in balance. Also, it seems that Andersen defers to Walker too much. That's not what we need in a veteran PG, but Andersen did the same thing in Boston. Is this what Woodson wants?

It's early, and Walker's dominance could be just the result of the offense breaking down. However, whether or not our rookies develop with Walker on the court is Woodson's responsibility. I see evidence that there are plays being run, but not effectively. Roles are still being defined, and the rookies are still adjusting.

Is Woodson the man for the job or not? Is Woodson rebuilding or trying to win to the detriment of rebuilding? I'm reserving judgement because it's too soon to tell.

[Wretch]

We're talking about a guy who is HIGHLY active in the offense, highly capable of scoring, and has always had the green light to shoot. And considering the dearth of offensive options, I don't see Woodson with any other choice in the matter. Sure he can run plays for other guys, but with this team those plays are going to break down most of the time. Walker is not only a scorer, he's a rebounder. He'll be sticking put-backs, chasing down long rebounds (often from his own 3pt barrages), and scrambling for looseballs. The young guys will have to play off of him (read: watch him) just to be involved in the game.

Topping it off is the fact that Walker has something to prove to the league after being dumped by the team that HE rebuilt AND the team he was dealt to - plus he's in a contract year, playing for a lottery team, with no guarantee of a contract with us beyond the season...maybe not even beyond midseason. Again, I don't see how any coach...with this team...could hold the door open for young guys and rookies.

Then we've got another guy with just as much of a point to prove in Harrington. They are potentially two 20+ ppg scorers. Having AH and AW on the same team changes the dynamics of what we're trying to do. You can't bench these guys or box them up just to let the rookies play. However, that is exactly what has to happen if we want these kids on the floor. Which is what is supposed to be going on if we're a rebuilding team.

Are we going to build around AH and AW...is Walker going to be here beyond the end of the season? His game is not suited to the bench or playing behind (or off of) developmental players. Not only that, but he has issues to deal with beyond our franchise.

Something has got to give. Either we want the young guys out there finding their game...or we establish AW as a cornerstone of this franchise.

What did BK say (most hastily) at the press conference about an extension for Walker...?

[macdaddy]

Walker is just what this team needs at this point. He's not all that useful to a team that's already a contender. Our young guys need to know what to do on offense when you have one guy dominating the ball. This is the way the majority of good nba teams work. You have one maybe two guys who get the plays and the other players just need to get open. Letting these guys play college ball and let everyone be equal in the offense won't teach these guys anything about the nba.

Having guys being in competition for 'alpha dog' is a great thing at this point in the season. If they are still doing it at the all star break then its a coaching problem. Now its just growing pains and healthy competition.

[Wretch]

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Walker is just what this team needs at this point. He's not all that useful to a team that's already a contender.

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This couldn't be further from the truth. You have to ask yourself, where do we entrust our future? Is Walker the future of this franchise? 5 or 6 years ago, when Paul Pierce was coming into his own and Walker had only been in the league a couple of seasons...you had a guy that could learn to play with and possibly defer to a young and rising star.

Walker is in a situation now where he is going on 10 years in the league and the guys coming in were in elementary school when he was playing professional ball. They will be looking to him to carry the team. But we drafted these guys to be our future. How do they become the cornerstones, the dominant players for our team...when they are deferring shots to Walker and Harrington and not getting valuable minutes?

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Our young guys need to know what to do on offense when you have one guy dominating the ball. This is the way the majority of good nba teams work. You have one maybe two guys who get the plays and the other players just need to get open.

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IF Walker is to be the cornerstone of this franchise, then I would agree with you. I have doubts about that. I also believe that our strategy going into the offseason, after we dealt all those guys was building through the draft. I don't think the strategy entails drafting a supporting cast of role players. And again, Walker is a scorer and a rebounder. The young guys can get open all they want. But unless they establish themselves as shooters (which they can't with him and AH dominating the ball) then they will not get the opportunity to get the shot that they are waiting for. Unless, as I said in another post, AW has a career year in assists.

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Letting these guys play college ball and let everyone be equal in the offense won't teach these guys anything about the nba.

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We're not talking about college ball. We're talking about playing time. You don't learn the NBA game in practice, playing garbage minutes, and you don't learn it from the bench. They need to be on the floor and they need to be the center of attention. That's how you learn how to break down defenses and how to defend guys that are trying to score.

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Having guys being in competition for 'alpha dog' is a great thing at this point in the season.

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There are only two players that will fight it out for that honor. That would be Walker and Harrington. With them having their own agendas and being the focus of Woodson's offensive schemes, I don't see how guys like Childress (who is already having problems being aggressive and is the ultimate team player) or Josh Smith (who is lacking confidence and is only 18 years old) can get out there and assert themselves on the floor.

The best they can hope for is garbage time or playing off of Walker and Harrington and score while the opposition focuses on the real threats. That doesn't really show these guys how to handle true NBA adversity.

[OGRat]

Walker's rep has been that he is not a team player. I am sure he would like to get beyond that, so that teams feel safe in investing in his next contract.

As for the guys not developing, consider Kobe's development. Eddie Jones, Glenn Robinson, Rick Fox, not to mention Shaquille Oneal all provided competition to him getting the ball in LA.

Some players are just going to play, and once they start to step up, it is the coaches job to make sure they develop. A true star would step up and demand the ball at some point. Maybe we do not have any true stars or they just haven't gotten to the point of demanding the ball. If they have the potential, it will show with or without Walker.

[Wretch]

Kobe had all of a season and a half of garbage time and playing off the bench behind Eddie Jones for LA. Even still, at the time, it was a VERY young team. Clearly they were going to be centered around Shaq, but the rest of those guys were learning to play with each other.

After his rookie season - where he got 15mpg - Kobe then began to assert himself GETTING VALUABLE MINUTES IN THE REGULAR SEASON AND IN THE PLAYOFFS. During his sophmore season, when Fox was brought in, it was clear who the future of the team belonged to. Jones, VanExel, and Campbell were all shipped out and Glenn Rice (not Glenn Robinson) was brought in as a 3rd option.

Our situation is different. LA had a playoff team looking to go deep in the post season and they had an NBA rarity - a true dominant center. We are a rebuilding LOTTERY TEAM. Antoine Walker is no Shaq. Neither is Harrington. If our situation were similar to LA back in 96, then I would say nothing about our guys sitting on the bench.

But it is not.

[Weez]

Walker's knock, to the best of my knowledge has not been that he's not a team player ~ (and yes, I pride myself on being 'well above average' in terms of keeping up with the players, teams, and the league in general) ~ it's been that he doesn't play the 'way he should,' e.g. in the post more, takes too many threes...but he's always passed and shared the ball well, at times trying to do too much off the dribble*

*again, watching him the other night, I was actually really really impressed with his ball handling skills. I know he forces some passes/decisions at times, but he can handle the ball better than I thought: I'd dub him the best ball handling pf in the league (better than CWebb, KG..and many sf's too).

[macdaddy]

I'm not arguing that Walker needs to be the guy for the next 5 years. I'm talking about this year. And what he brings his the ability to show the rookies what it is to be the man on offense. I don't want to see an offense running through Childress, Smith, and Diaw this year. It would be like the Bulls have been for the last few years.

You said it yourself about Kobe. When/If these guys start to assert themselves and erase doubt about their nba potential then you will see Walker shipped out. Until then we still have to put an nba caliber team on the floor or these guys won't learn squat.

You keep saying these young guys are our future and I couldn't agree more. They are the future and not the present. And if they are going to be effective in the future they need some players to learn from. I'll take Walker for that. He may not be perfect for the role but he is a proven nba scorer and that's significant.

Do you really think that great players won't emerge just because Walker is around. If these guys can cut it then they will do it.

[Employee8]

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What did BK say (most hastily) at the press conference about an extension for Walker...?

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He basically said "Let's Wait and see.....", Wretch.

I think Walker will get a good and fair offer from BK should he remain past the deadline with this team (hopefully he follows Woodson's coaching to the letter all season). He is the type of Player that BK *wants* which is a Versatile, High-scoring, High-rebounding, Good-assisting ALL-STAR!!

[Employee8]

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Walker's rep has been that he is not a team player.

I am sure he would like to get beyond that, so that teams feel safe in investing in his next contract.

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I BEG TO F'N DIFFER, my friend. Walker's rep is simply "that's the guy who ran Our Gambling buddy(horseracing) Rick Pitino out of town"

Walker may have taken alot of shots while with Boston but he always deferred to Paul Pierce....And who the fuk else was worth passing the ball to besides him??

In Dallas, he was able to pass the ball and find guys everywhere that could make a jumpshot. AND he willingly "toned down" his game to try and mold himself into something he has never ever been in his career : A Role Player.

Walker.....Not a Team Player? If that's true, then may I present the new President of the United States :

HULK HOGAN!!!

[Wretch]

If they have the talent, but it will take that much longer with Walker and Harrington dominating the offense. Kobe was benched only because they were a playoff team and because LA had an established scorer at the 2 and 3.

Still, even as an elite team in the West...they gave the kid his time to shine. He did and they got rid of everyone else. If LA were not a playoff team, you would have seen Kobe with much more time on the floor taking many more shots.

Why should the offense be run through the young guys? They shouldn't learn the game first hand? They should sit on the bench and watch Walker, Barry, and Willis do it as we make a push? We're rebuilding...or at least I thought we were. And if we are rebuilding, then it is the guys that we are rebuilding with that need to be getting the closest look. They need to be playing.

The point that I'm making here is that we are not a playoff team. What will we have gained, if we play through the entire season...come up with 30 - 35 wins and AH/AW having carried the team?

[OGRat]

Emp8,

Thanks for the passion. I stand corrected on the "team player" comment. But my point still stands. Walker is playing for a contract this year, and playing in whatever system the coach is pushing would be to his benefit.

I don't think any coach would blindly play young players who did not deserve the chance. Playing time should be earned. Even a butterfly has to fight its way out of the coccoon in order to properly develop. I don't want to just hand the rookies the team. Let them earn it. Before they lead, let them learn to follow.

Kevin Garnett did not start when he first got to the league, but when he got on the court he showed that he belonged there. As for strong personalities to compete with, wasn't Rider on the team when he got there. Walker's influence has to be better than Rider's.

The players we have drafted have not shown they are ready to be the focus of an offense in the nba. Heck, Al Harrington is not ready for that. I say dole out the time as they are ready for it. In the mean time, let the veterans lead the way. The team still should be competitive.

Lastly, it's too soon to say what the team is doing is not working.

[Diesel]

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Walker is in a situation now where he is going on 10 years in the league and the guys coming in were in elementary school when he was playing professional ball. They will be looking to him to carry the team. But we drafted these guys to be our future. How do they become the cornerstones, the dominant players for our team...when they are deferring shots to Walker and Harrington and not getting valuable minutes?

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If you would look at all the young guys that you talk about:

Diaw, Smith, Ivey, Childress...

These guys will never become "the man". The only one who is close is J-Smith. He has a Vince Carter like ability. But Still. These guys are all complimentary players. I'm not trying to slight them, but I think that's what BK saw in them. They all fit his specifications:

Long, Atheletic, versatile.

Some think that versatile means that they do everything well. It can also mean that they are not the best at one thing.

Both Diaw and Childress are in the mode of Pippen. Pipp is the most famed complimentary player to ever play.

J-Smooth I think was drafted becuase of his overwhelming atheletic ability. He's a project. I would let him spend every waking moment with Nique.

When you look at the rest of the team... I think Harrington could be a cornerstone here. He just might be the PF of the future. I think Walker is here for the reasons stated before. He's the right guy at the right time. I don't know how BK will handle Walker because I can guarantee that AW puts up an allstar year. The question is do we keep him or do we try to trade him for high value?

Also, we need to be knowledgable that this offseason we will have 20 more million to spend.

Needs at C, PG, and possible SG... With names like Ray Allen, Joe Johnson, Chandler, Curry, that will be out there.

This season will be interesting.

[Diesel]

My prediction:

This season is a deal season.

BK told Walker... You the man.. Just make sure that you play within the coaches gameplan and help mentor these young guys.

What we will see is Walker putting up many points/assists/rebounds. He's going to be an allstar.

Harrington is coming out of his cocoon too. This will be a dynamic duo. Maybe as good as Walker/Pierce.

I think that Chilz will get his chance. I think Diaw will get his too. I don't know about J-Smooth. It will take some doing. I wish they would let him play but I think it will be some time before he's up to even 10 mpg.

Don't think that this team won't go to the playoffs. If the C rotation of Drobs, Collier, and Willis can be effective, you might see the Hawks as an 8 seed. The reason why is bench play. Barry and Delk off the bench with Walker/Harrington/KA is a good combo.

[macdaddy]

The reason we don't run an offense featuring Smith, Childress, Diaw is that we would get destroyed in the majority of the games and no free agent would touch us next year.

This is still a business and the Hawks have to put a decent product on the floor. Show the league that we can compete with AH and Walker and some promising young guys and we can attract some better players next year.

I hate to agree with Diesel(just kidding), but he's right. Chill and Diaw may eventually be very good nba players but they'll never be the cornerstone of the offense. Smith may be but at 18 you can't throw him in 40 minutes a night.

There is a method to rebuilding and its not (as the bulls learned) just getting a bunch of young guys and throwing them out on the floor. That's a recipe for disaster.