Here is where BK really screwed up...

[Final_quest]

It's difficult to say at this point because this season is really the one I'm using to judge. If we're no good, BK is gone.

BTW... weren't you the guy advocating that we pick Patrick O'Bryant? I'm pretty sure it was you.

[BossTweed]

I'd love to see some examples of an individual GM that has fit your criteria of a "Good GM". You guys are knocking the job BK has done, but where are your examples of people that have done better over the same period of time, in the same drafts???

Like other people are saying, NO ONE gets EVERY pick right, or gets every trade right.

Please, someone show me a GM where there aren't any examples of "Oh, he should have picked this guy who went 5 picks later instead of the guy he picked". I doubt there are any. I'd love to see some examples.

[Sothron]

Yes, I'd rather have taken a chance on POB than settling on an undersized and old (for a rookie) 23 year old with limited upside.

You want a list of good general managers? Jerry West tops that category. Greg Popavich would be second. Don Nelson Jr or whoever runs Dallas would be third. I love the job Charlotte has done in the draft and Orlando has two young studs in the making with Howard and Nelson. The Bucks GM has done a good job and isn't scared to make trades to bring in better talent. Jerry Colangelo is off to a good start in Toronto. The Phoenix GM is good. The Nets guy, Rod Thorpe? doesn't get enough credit. Kiki Vanderweighe did a good job in Denver. Joe Dumars has been very good in Detroit.

I can keep going here. There's at least twenty general managers in the NBA I would list above BK without breaking a sweat. The only GM I can categorically put below Knight is Isiah Thomas.

[Popeye]

56 OTHER TEAMS passed up on Emanuel Ginobili before Spurs took him in 1999. Thats a lot of GM's and they all SUCK.

[Final_quest]

I think all of those guys have made their share of mistakes.

I give BK a lot of credit for bringing in a marquee free agent and potential all-star when we had one of the worst seasons in league history. Then he signed Zaza on top of that.

I'm gonna let this season play out some more.

[jerrywest]

The keyword here is "Really"!!! Really?

If a GM's biggest mistake is with a 2nd rounder he must be amazing.

If the big Greek is one of his major mistakes he must be amazing.

Hindsight maestroes.

I'll never call my wife "nagging" ever again.

[BossTweed]

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You want a list of good general managers? Jerry West tops that category. Greg Popavich would be second. Don Nelson Jr or whoever runs Dallas would be third. I love the job Charlotte has done in the draft and Orlando has two young studs in the making with Howard and Nelson. The Bucks GM has done a good job and isn't scared to make trades to bring in better talent. Jerry Colangelo is off to a good start in Toronto. The Phoenix GM is good. The Nets guy, Rod Thorpe? doesn't get enough credit. Kiki Vanderweighe did a good job in Denver. Joe Dumars has been very good in Detroit.

I can keep going here. There's at least twenty general managers in the NBA I would list above BK without breaking a sweat. The only GM I can categorically put below Knight is Isiah Thomas.

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Maybe you didn't get my point. I wasn't asking for your opinion on who was a "Good GM", I was asking you to look at those guy's drafts and player decisions, and show me that none of them have drafted a guy who was a bust, or drafted a guy higher than they should have, or missed a guy who turned out to be a good player.

For example, Larry Bird drafted James White in the second round, and traded up to get him. Guess where James White is now? WAIVED. Does that make Larry Bird a bad GM? Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. My point is that no one gets the perfect player every time. You just have to hope they get good players and make good decisions most of the time, and then get more great ones than busts.

[jerrywest]

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I think all of those guys have made their share of mistakes.

I give BK a lot of credit for bringing in a marquee free agent and potential all-star when we had one of the worst seasons in league history. Then he signed Zaza on top of that.

I'm gonna let this season play out some more.

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Exactly, every GM has major blunders behind them. What does BK have to do equal passing over Wade/Melo and mismanaging Wallace/Darko. Ow BK has already screwed us almost as much - by taking away Gasol from us (my hindsight magic - although it was a good trade for Hawks then).

Wake up people. We have a special team forming. Most teams are lucky to have capable players who love to do little things. We have many. We are leading the NBA in defense. Who would have predicted that?

[jerrywest]

Tell your wife if you nag about every little thing you miss the good times.

Some of your not having enough fun with this Hawks team. After all the suffering you have gone through, its not fair.

[Sothron]

Er, no guy, the first thing you asked was for examples of individual GMs that fit my "good gm" criteria and I gave you several of them. Don't go changing the questions because you can't handle the answers.

And again I ask you and the other guy who piped up, so what? Knight makes some mediocre draft picks while passing over better talent and that's supposed to be a good thing? I mean seriously. No one has said Knight has to make the perfect pick on every decision. That's not realistic. But when he has yet to get one pick right (Smoove) in relation to where it was taken...you have to start demanding better from your general manager. Especially when he knows as we do that the ownership situation keeps him from bringing in real free agents.

We as fans should demand more than a bottom five general manager.

[drzachary]

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Joe Dumars has been very good in Detroit.

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?? Darko! There's not really a bigger blunder than that in recent draft history.

[Sothron]

Dumars has won a ring and was in position to win another. If you win the title you get to make a blunder or two.

I would kill to have the chance to use that as an excuse for Knight's blunders.

[GoDawgs21]

Call it a slow day at work, but just to show what we are saying by picks better GM, here are teams drafts for 2003,2004,2005 since the 2006 rookies havent played enough to judge they will not be included. The teams are ranked in avg. pick number. This only includes 1st rounders. SO logically the teams with the lower draft postion should be worse picks. Those at the top of the list have had picks of better caliber players.

Avg Pick

1) 4.5 Mil- 8)TJ Ford, 1)Andrew Bogut

2) 5.5 Cle- 1)Lebron James, 10)Luke Jackson

3) 5.6 Chi- 7)Kirk Hinrich, 3)Ben Gordon, 7)Loul Deng

4) 6.6 Cha- 2)Emkea Okafor, 5)Raymond Felton,13)Sean May

5) 7.3 LAC- 6)Kaman, 4) Livingston, 12)Yaraslov Korolev

6) 8.5 NYK- 9)Frye, 8)Sweetney

7) 8.8 Tor- 4)Bosh, 8)Arajuo, 7)Villenueva, 16)J. Graham

8) 9 Phi- 9)Iguedola

9) 10 Was- 10)Jarvis Hayes

10) 10.3 GST- 11)Pietrus, 11)Biedrinis, 9)Diogiu

11) 11.8 Atl- 22)Boris, 6)Chill, 17)Smoove, 2)Marvin

12) 12 Orl- 16)R. Gains, 1)Howard, 20)Nelson, 11)Vazquez

13) 13.3 Uta- 20)Pavlovic, 14)Humphries, 16)Snyder, 3)Deron

14) 13.6 NO - 19)West, 18) JR Smith, 4) Paul

15) 16 Sea- 12)Collison, 15)Ridnour, 12)Swift, 25)Petro

16) 16.6 Den- 3)Melo, 20)Julis Hodge, 27) Linos Kleiza

17) 17.6 Mia- 5)Wade, 19)Dorell Wright, 29)Wayne Simon

18) 18 Det- 2)Darko, 26)Delfino, 26)Jason Maxell

19) 18.3 Por- 24)Outlaw, 13)Telfair, 22)Khyrpa, 23)Monia,

6)Jack, 22)Martell Wbster

20) 18.6 Dal- 30)Howard, 5)Harris, 21)Pavel Podkolzine

21) 19 NJN- 23)Zoran Planic

22) 19.5 PHX- 18)Cabarkaba, 21)Nate Robinson

23) 20 Bos- 17)T. bell, 21)D. Jones, 15)Jefferson,

18)Green, 24) West, 25) Allen

24) 20.3 Mem- 14)Banks, 28)Perkins, 19)Warrick

25) 20.5 Min- 27)Nbudi Ebi, 14)Rashd McCants

26) 20.6 LAL- 25)Cook, 27)Vujaecic, 10)Bynum

27) 23 Ind- 29)Harrison, 17)Granger

28) 24 Hou- 24) Luther Head

29) 24.5 Sac- 26) Kevin Martin, 23) F. Garcia

30) 28.3 SA- 29)Barbosa, 28) Udrih, 28) Ian Mahiuni

Have fun but name 5 teams with better total picks, not just one guy cause they had a high pick and then compare that years pick wtih Atl. Name 5 teams with better drafts. PLEASE.

I will give you with avg picks worse then ours Dal, NO, and Utah have done better.

[GoDawgs21]

Before you go nuts saying this guy and that guy, make sure they were available at the time we picked. Ala Harris for Dallas was gone when it was our pick. Im just showing that most GM's have had at least one tank. Orlando for instence drafted Howard and Nelson, well duh you had the number one pick how hard is that to chose. But they also drafted a guy in the first round in a higher spot then smoove or Diaw that chose to stay in Europe. I dont call that a good pick at all. Seattle has 3 project big men and Ridnour who was demoted this year, and has more TO's then any Atl point guard.

[skyhawk]

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Er, no guy, the first thing you asked was for examples of individual GMs that fit my "good gm" criteria and I gave you several of them. Don't go changing the questions because you can't handle the answers.

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I'm not saying that your list is flawed but without specific examples your argument lacks credibility. For example, name an impact player that Jerry West has drafted while in Memphis.

Debate 101, you can't prove a point where your argument is based completely on opinion..especially on this board.

[Sothron]

lol yes, I suppose someone asking me to give a list of good general managers in my opinion and I comply can not possibly mean I provided a list of good general managers...in my opinion. What sillyness was I thinking.

And FWIW I think Gay will be an impact player for the Grizz.

[TexasPete]

My point is not that Billy takes bad players. It's that he almost never takes the guy that really helps us the most. Frankly, where we pick every year, I don't find it that difficult to take a good player. That is almost guaranteed picking as high as we do every year. The key is taking the players that give us the quantum leap that we all want. Giving Billy credit for taking good players when he could have had GREAT players doesn't make good sense.

And I would hope even KB21 would admit that Billy ran this past draft like a rank amateur. Mr. Secrecy promising a marginal #5 (at best) player that he was going to be the guy...without even working out the top 5 players? BK didn't even bother to work out Shelden, and all I can do is ask WHY??? Being so sure about a player that you don't do all of your homework is arrogant and negligent. Just for grins, why didn't we work out Roy? Just for the heck of it?

[gutz]

Point is BK has made solid draft picks since coming to the Atlanta Hawks and each pick is either starting or has a crucial role off the bench right now even second rounders. No other team can really say that. I understand that it currently looks like we should have taken Paul over Marvin but I have no doubt in my mind that Marvin is going to be a star in this league. A lot of these other so called "good Gm's" you have named have also done terrible in FA signings as well as being terrible in the draft compared to BK's. I mean Kiki signing Kenyon to that outrageous deal is one example and he has sucked. Obvoiusly having Carmelo fall in your lap was an easy pick and why Denver is good now. I don't agree with everything BK has done by any means but I can't understand how you so-called Hawks fans can continue to bash this guy when he has made great picks, built our team from scratch, and kept our cap space(which many GM's in the NBA do a terrible job of). The only pick i can see that might have been incorrect somewhat, after the fact, is taking Marvin over Paul. EVERYONE on this board knows for a fact that Paul wasn't even that hyped up coming out of college and wasn't even the #1 PG going into the draft. But now you all bash Bk for not taking him? No one knew Paul was going to blow up like this not even the Hornets when they took him. You guys are a joke!

[GoDawgs21]

So you say we dont take players that help us. Your right so our biggest problem last year was post defense. We led the league in most pts allowed in the paint and were near the bottom in total pts allowed. So please on gods green earth would you draft a player (Roy,Foye,Gay) that does not address your biggest need. Not to mention you have one of the best players in the league at the postion they play. So I assume if LA was in our position they shoudl have taken Roy because he is so f'n amazing never mind this Kobe guy they have.

No so to address the problem of being last in the league in interior defense, we go out and draft a two time defensive player of the year and an all-american. Damn now why would we do that??? Geez. I will be the first to admit I wasnt sold on Sheldon, I can flat out stand up and say I wanted us to trade down and get O'Bryant. Sorry I dont have the hindsight you guys have. So when rumors float that Sheldon the defensive player Billy wanted might go 8th, and the 6th and 7th teams aren't willing to trade what do u do? You take him, Its not rocket science.

So how has it impacted us, no he isnt scoring 20 pts per game like Roy we have guys that do that. But sidenote tell me where Roy gets his 19 shot attempts in our lineup. You going to take shots from JJ? If hew is our PG we wouldnt be running the up tempo game everyone wants. No it has impacted us though in the fact we are leading the league in pts allowed per game. We havent let a team score 100 yet,oh and the team we lost to due to a poor shooting night, is undefeated and we held them to 12 pts below their season avg.

Yep, glad we drafted Roy to help with that defence. You state that Billy doesnt draft to fit his biggest needs. I would beg to differ there Chief.

[gsuteke]

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I'm not complaining at all about a 2nd round pick. I'm complaining about Billy Knight passing over another fine young talent. This kid was strongly considered on the Hawks board and they went with the wrong guy...for the 100th time. The Hawks were said to have loved Ellis...and they went with Salim. This kid is a helluva lot more than a number 2 pick, he is headed to the big time within a few years. I love Marvin...but I would take Paul. I love Childress...but I think Iggy or Deng are better. I don't like Shelden at all...would have loved Roy. I like Speedy...would rather have drafted Roy and received something more for AL, or gotten help on the front line in free agency. I don't like Salim...I would rather have Monta Ellis. I like Solomon but there were several players BETTER on the board and we passed on them for a raw player.

This rebuilding effort has been DELAYED a year or two with choosing good players...when BETTER ones were on the board. If you can't see it, I can't help you. But I spend a large chunk of change on my tickets every year so I am actually invested in this deal...I don't just talk about it on message boards. I will be in Philips, God willing, 35 times this season and I haven't seen the playoffs for 7 freaking years. I want Billy Knight to start taking the BEST player just once or twice. Not a decent player, the BEST player. Make sense?

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posts like these are why a weekly "just shut up" award would be in order.