For all of those who wanted Paul instead of Marvin

[VarsitySlacker]

To play devil's advocate, has Bowie over Jordan happened since? Where a team picked a player at a position they needed over a player with superior potential talent? Because I always hear that comparison (which it is a good one) but I've never heard of another scenario where a team blew a draft by doing this.

[hawkman]

Quote:

---

That line of thinking is why Portland drafted Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan. You don't ignore superstar ability just to fill a need.

---

OK. Fair enough. But, what if, by drafting a PG in last year's draft you could both fill a need and have a player with superstar ability? Hmmmmm.

[Guest Walter]

...whether BK goes with the "consensus" (MW, arguably) or not (SW) he gets it wrong.

One of the primary reasons MW was projected higher than any ONE of the Pgs was because there were THREE of them to choose from. All had minor question marks (but at least two had fewer than MW) and we're not slam dunks but collectively drafting for a Pg at our position was. Unfortunately, the "consensus" would have to decide which Pg was the best, something (nuanced thought) the "consensus" is not very good at.

Of course, there was NC's title year that helped, but honestly, if you watched UNC ball, and I did all season because that's all I get up here in NC, MW wasn't THAT special. He was good but absolutely not special. Just look at his HS ranking (and pulling out of the draft due to being the 5th-6th best HSer the year prior). Also, Sf is a flashier position. Lots of factors, but regardless, the "consensus" was lazy, reprinted their own lazy journalism, got snowed, wasn't that convinced anyhow, and was wrong.

In short, I want my GM to get it right significantly more often than not no matter what the consensus says. Otherwise, let the consensus draft for us. BTW, for U-S I believe the "consensus" would have selected a Pg.

W

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

---

That line of thinking is why Portland drafted Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan. You don't ignore superstar ability just to fill a need.

---

...over Brandon Roy.

KB, the Jordan argument is La-La-La-Lame. There was NOTHING in MW's game, personaility, etc. that suggested he could ever hold Pippens jock much less MJ's. I don't dislike the guy. In fact, I like his skill set. Unfortunately he's just like any other very good SF prospect (of which we had 3-4). If he had remotely been more he would have remained in the previous year's draft instead of pulling out as his stock fell or at least didn't rise above 5th/6th best HS prospect. You caqn still draft him (at 2) but only with all things considered.

Simply put you do NOT envoke the MJ rule for (merely) such a player! If you did it with the regularity that you evoke it, KB, it would be called the MJ/Chris Jackson/JR Reid/(insert name here)...rule. Hell, why not call it the "excuse your GM" rule for not building a team. Don't bother with the facts, just call player-X the "BPA", say the magic letters "MJ" 3 times, rub your ego with a ball cloth, and (poof) you instantly are excused for any and all responsibility for being a dumbass GM.

The irony is BK utterly did what you insisted he NOT do by NOT drafting the "BPA" in this year's draft. Yet you not only support him 110%, you turned your back on your original choice in Roy, praised the selection of BK sighting his wisdom we cannot expect to comprehend, and simply made a mockery of yourself.

If you really believe "BPA" KB you'd be ALL OVER Billy Knight for SW. You don't. You selectively envoke it and do so for the most modest of prospects in MW to serve BK's (not your) purpose. It's awful strange and I think we should consider an intervention.

W

[Diesel]

You also don't continuously duplicate positions in hopes to find a superstar....when other superstar possible players at other positions exists.

Will Marvin be a Superstar??? Probably not.

Will Deron and Paul?? They may be the starting PGs in the Allstar game for the next 10 years...

Why did we choose Marvin again? Please don't tell me because people said we ought to? Dat's DUMB.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

Why did we choose Marvin again? Please don't tell me because people said we ought to? Dat's DUMB.

---

You know the answer to that. Our scouts (and many others) thought he was the most likely player to be a star from his draft class.

When we drafted Marvin, we didn't have a franchise player to build around and the team thought they were getting the best bet to land a franchise player by taking Bogut or Marvin.

[hawkman]

Like I said earlier, we overthought the pick. We bring a prospect in and he blew everyone away during his workout. He just happened to be a PG. We needed a PG. Draft night comes and we draft a Small Forward. We allowed the "talking heads" to talk us out of making the obvious pick. We start Ivey at the point with Lue backing him up. Everyone moans about the logjam at Forward and that Al should be traded to "make room" for Marvin. At the same time, we have no depth at PG so we pick up Anthony Grundy. Now what doesn't add up here? We have a logjam at Forward but have to sign a PG from the NBDL after a draft that was LOADED with top tier talent at that position??? We created a problem at Forward and failed to address the problem at Point Guard. I'm no basketball genius nor am I paid to be one but this is not a decision a competent GM would make. Once again, I'm not against Marvin personally as he will be a good player in this league. I just don't see him as a superstar type player(which would have justified this pick). He just doesn't stike me as a Carmelo or Lebron type of basketball prodigy. Time will tell I guess.

[exodus]

I didn't really have an opinion on that draft one way or the other simply because I didn't see enough of Marvin to be able to judge his game. However with the benefit of hindsight it is pretty obvious that Paul or Deron would have been better picks.

[Diesel]

No Need for Hindsight...

There was no evidence that Marvin was a superstar possibility. Not as much evident as there were for Deron and Paul to show up in BIg games...

I posted how Marvin played in Big games weeks before the draft here. It was met with hatred and cynacism. The reason? the posters here will believe whatever the "experts" say... even if it goes against what they've seen with their own eyes.

Marvin had done nothing and didn't deserve the consideration he got. Moreover, his position is a dime a dozen position. That's not Hindsight that's fact. Josh Childress was doing just fine at Sf.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

I didn't really have an opinion on that draft one way or the other simply because I didn't see enough of Marvin to be able to judge his game. However with the benefit of hindsight it is pretty obvious that Paul or Deron would have been better picks.

---

That is the bottomline. We have already seen hundreds of threads on this topic so I am not sure what we are still doing discussing this in December 2006.

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

---

You know the answer to that. Our scouts (and many others) thought he was the most likely player to be a star from his draft class.

When we drafted Marvin, we didn't have a franchise player to build around and the team thought they were getting the best bet to land a franchise player by taking Bogut or Marvin.

---

Is that ("our scouts") some way of reducing BK's responsibility?

From my watching some 20 UNC games (as that is about all I get up here) there was NO WAY MW was a franchise player no matter what the lemmings arguably said. He would have stayed in the previous draft class if he were remotely such a player, instead he pulled out for a year as a BU at UNC. I mean come on AHF. Did you watch him play? Very good and all, but NOT franchise player material and no more "star" material than Deron or Paul (a proven college star) were.

The fact that "his scouts" got it wrong also, doesn't excuse BK. It's not like BK couldn't turn on any station and see every UNC, Wake, and Illini game. These weren't small college finds, HS player, etc. that BK could only see once in awhile. It's not like BK didn't try them out (unlike this year).

When the player in question isn't a likely superstar you DO NOT envoke the MJ rule! You must weigh all the facts surrounding the team needs and the player in such cases and there is no way had BK done so we would have MW. BK just SCREWED UP ROYALLY! Quit making excuses for him. Consensus this, his scouts determined that. BILLY KNIGHT MADE A GIANT MISTAKE. He is responsible. He is responsible. We go to war with the GM we have, not the GM we would like to have, but in this case and others he just doesn't measure up.

W

[AHF]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

You know the answer to that. Our scouts (and many others) thought he was the most likely player to be a star from his draft class.

When we drafted Marvin, we didn't have a franchise player to build around and the team thought they were getting the best bet to land a franchise player by taking Bogut or Marvin.

---

Is that ("our scouts") some way of reducing BK's responsibility?

From my watching some 20 UNC games (as that is about all I get up here) there was NO WAY MW was a franchise player no matter what the lemmings arguably said. He would have stayed in the previous draft class if he were remotely such a player, instead he pulled out for a year as a BU at UNC. I mean come on AHF. Did you watch him play? Very good and all, but NOT franchise player material and no more "star" material than Deron or Paul (a proven college star) were.

The fact that "his scouts" got it wrong also, doesn't excuse BK. It's not like BK couldn't turn on any station and see every UNC, Wake, and Illini game. These weren't small college finds, HS player, etc. that BK could only see once in awhile. It's not like BK didn't try them out (unlike this year).

When the player in question isn't a likely superstar you DO NOT envoke the MJ rule! You must weigh all the facts surrounding the team needs and the player in such cases and there is no way had BK done so we would have MW. BK just SCREWED UP ROYALLY! Quit making excuses for him. Consensus this, his scouts determined that. BILLY KNIGHT MADE A GIANT MISTAKE. He is responsible. He is responsible. We go to war with the GM we have, not the GM we would like to have, but in this case and others he just doesn't measure up.

W

---

Just about everyone in the league viewed Marvin as the best or second best prospect in the draft. That doesn't reduce BK's culpability because the responsibility for the pick is his alone at the end of the day. However, people who are pretending that Marvin was not regarded by NBA personnel as the best or second-best prospect in the draft are having a little fun with revisionist history. I am sure that W, Diesel and others genuinely believed that Marvin did not have star potential at the time he was being drafted but that doesn't change the facts that the consensus among NBA personnel responsible for evaluating prospects viewed Marvin as the guy most likely to be a star in the NBA.

Give BK his blame and his due, but don't pretend that he was going against the grain by viewing Marvin as the most likely star from the 2005 draft class. Given the benefit of hindsight, at the end of last season nearly everyone would have said Paul was the appropriate pick. Given the benefit of hindsight now there would a solid division between Deron and Paul for the pick. Hopefully in the future, Marvin's play will make that a three-way split. If it doesn't, we will all be dissappointed.

[AtLaS]

lmao at the MJ rule. Wasn't Jordan the 2 time college player of the year? What was Marvin.. a bench player who stunk it up in the tourney when it really counted.

He has no post game, he's weak, and he's not the great defender everyone is making him out to be. He's too small to ever be a great SF, unless he becomes an Allen type shooter.

I hope he proves me wrong, but I just haven't seen the all this potential everyone keeps raving about.

BTW he's played 84 games not 2 like y'all keep saying..

[Diesel]

Quote:

---

still believe that Deron will be as good if not better than Kidd, especially in UTAH. IN Utah, Deron will be put in the same system that Stockton played in and the difference between Deron and Kidd is defense and FG%.

I still believe that Paul will be ROY and if he remains Durableenough he will show better than Howard and Okafor last year. I think Paul will be the first 18-20 ppg rookie that has played since Lebron.

---

You see slacker, this and other post I made said that I expected Paul to get a better jump than Deron. My only question about Paul was his durability.

However, where was my defense of Deron last year? He didn't need any. He was still twice as good as Marvin.

Face it. We made a stupid choice... PERIOD.

[exodus]

Quote:

---

He's too small to ever be a great SF,

---

I have to wonder what you consider a big sf if you consider Marvin small. His standing reach is only 1" less than Solomon, only 2" less than Aldridge.

[AtLaS]

Quote:

---

Just about everyone in the league viewed Marvin as the best or second best prospect in the draft. That doesn't reduce BK's culpability because the responsibility for the pick is his alone at the end of the day. However, people who are pretending that Marvin was not regarded by NBA personnel as the best or second-best prospect in the draft are having a little fun with revisionist history. I am sure that W, Diesel and others genuinely believed that Marvin did not have star potential at the time he was being drafted but that doesn't change the facts that the consensus among NBA personnel responsible for evaluating prospects viewed Marvin as the guy most likely to be a star in the NBA.

---

I agree with that, I just don't see how someone SO unproven could be considered the BEST prospect. He had never done anything at the college level, his high school team was below .500, and after his freshman season of coming off the bench he's suddenly the BEST player available? Just makes no sense. That usually doesn't happen in the US, it's usually Euro guys that get drafted REALLY high without having done anything for their team, yet they are expected to do it in the NBA.

He hadn't shown he was a star or a leader on ANY level, how did we expect him to come in and be one in the NBA? Much less with a #2 pick, a glut of SF's and a huge need for a pg. Not to mention even BEFORE the draft it was considered a really top heavy pg draft. Also he wasn't rated much higher than Paul or Deron, he wasn't considered the far and away BPA, probably 75% of the mocks I saw had us taking Paul, including ESPN's at least at one point.

Don't y'all remember that Paul had his best workout here, and Marvin came in an inch shorter than reported AND out of shape.. but for some reason BK still fell into the hype.

[AtLaS]

his body size, it's not hard to notice..

[exodus]

He weighed 230 as a teenager at the combine. If you think that is undersized for a sf then you must be watching a different league than me.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

probably 75% of the mocks I saw had us taking Paul, including ESPN's at least at one point.

---

Not the ones I was reading at the time of the draft. I already outed an ESPN writer earlier this season who claimed that the Hawks passing on Paul was "unforgiveable" but had Paul going 5th in his own mock draft. In fact, a lot of draft experts had Gerald Green going before Paul or Deron Williams for most of the time leading up to the draft.

[Popeye]

Quote:

---

his body size, it's not hard to notice..

---

He is 6-9 230, avearge SF in NBa is about 6-8 220.

But he is pretty weak right now though.