Wow Look at Iverson!!!

[Nicholasp27]

they aren't better with AI!

they are exactly the same...AI just replaced melo while melo is injured

we'll see once melo returns, but there are only so many possessions in a game

melo shoots over 50% from the field (only one other than jj in top 10 ppg to do so)

ai shoots 43% from the field

who should be getting the touches?

there are only so many possessions in a game

adding an inefficient scorer like ai isn't gonna help

AND they lost dre miller, who is a better playmaker than ai

if they had added defense, they woulda been more likely to contend...they had offense in spades and melo is a better offensive player than ai

melo scores more

melo rebounds more

melo blocks more

melo shoots better from the field

melo plays less mins to do the above

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

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What will happen when Melo and JR return is the key question. We'll see what happens.

---

...But they weren't going to win a title without a bold move. May not be the right bold move, we'll see, but at least they are trying their best.

Still wish Iverson was in Minnesota.

W

[gutz]

I wish Iverson was here in the ATL playing alongside JJ, Smoove, Zaza and Chill or Marvin. We would all be talking on this board like we just banged the prom queen.

[Diesel]

Yes, yes...

and

I don't think our ownership is looking to make any significant moves anyway.

There is a strong possibility that Belkin's court order could stand up (doesn't make sense, but it could).

If it does, all that the AS gets is what they originally put in.

Now, they have supposedly payed 11+ million dollars as a fee to cover the cost of any players that they may acquire this year. I think they've spent that with Speedy, Lo, Shelden.

They have also made a 20 million dollar payment on the debt...

They stand to lose a lot of money if this judgement goes Belkin's way. I don't think they want to put any more into the Hawks than they have to until they can get a settlement...

So I don't look for any great moves to happen.

[hawkman]

Quote:

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I wish Iverson was here in the ATL playing alongside JJ, Smoove, Zaza and Chill or Marvin. We would all be talking on this board like we just banged the prom queen.

---

Amen. Instead we have to sit around and complain about everything like a bunch of bored old men and look back at the Babcock era as the "good ole days" You gotta love this franchise. It's so bad that it's actually kind of funny. Great job BK, we are truly headed in the right direction.

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

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They stand to lose a lot of money if this judgement goes Belkin's way. I don't think they want to put any more into the Hawks than they have to until they can get a settlement...

So I don't look for any great moves to happen.

---

...according to you, how could you not want to get/keep a top 3 pick this year? It's not only the best but it's the ONLY way we can improve according to your own analysis. And you refuse it on what grounds?

The only way this team is going to get help is if it helps itself by keeping a top 3 pick. Nobody else, nothing else is going to greatly help it. It has to help itself with a fortune-changing draft pick. It'll take a little luck and some soul searching, but that's all we've got.

W

[Diesel]

When we made the trade to get JJ, everything that we gave up for JJ became nothing.

It's like giving somebody 30 shares of stock. Once you give them the stock, you can't sit around every day and ask them, well, what did you do with that stock today? Did it go up, did it go down?

If you sell somebody your car, you can't go over to their house everyday and see how they are tricking it out... and once they've finally pimped the ride, say to yourself: DAMN. I made a bad deal!

We made a trade for JJ. We got what we wanted and the Suns got what they wanted. Period.

Regardless of when we give up the draft pick, we've got to give it up. So we shouldn't be planning our season according to what Phoenix is going to get from us.

I would love it if we won 70 games this season and finish with the best record in the league. Not because Phoenix would then get the 30th pick, but because we'd be the best team in the league.

The bottom line is that I like to see our team competitive.

I've lived through the 13 win season already. We've had the number 2 pick overall already.. At some point, we have to get off the welfare system called lottery and try to win something.

So let me ask this.

What if Oden decides to stay for another year.

And we do give up a pick to Phoenix.

And next year, the draft class is much stronger than this one.

Does that mean, that next year, you will be calling for us to tank after 28 games?

Like many people have said, we have a good team, we've just been injured. That's no reason to tank.

If you have never played an organized sport and if you are not competitive, you don't know how losing effects a team.

If you really want us to tank, you should advocate us doing it the right way... by trading all of our good players for midround picks and ending contracts. Because otherwise, your planting the seeds for continued failure.

[Gray Mule]

Hawks really did need A.I. Hawks couldn't have gotten

him here for 2 reasons.

1- We're not a contender, although we might have been if

we added A.I.

2- Belkin would never allow it - Contract is longer than

what their agreement calls for - Another J.J. case,

only worse, if Hawks had really tried to do this.

I really would have loved to have him here, but the cost

was high for us, plus, our hands are tied by Belkin.

He won't let the Hawks spend that kind of money.

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

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If you really want us to tank, you should advocate us doing it the right way... by trading all of our good players for midround picks and ending contracts. Because otherwise, your planting the seeds for continued failure.

---

I think not! We are a bad team. We're a bad team that for a variety of diminishing capitol and ownership reasons could only improve itself significantly through the lottery. "Continued failure" is written all over the present scenario.

I am advocating "tanking" the right way. I've suggested 3 specific things. Trade Lue. Play and defer to SJ and Batista more. Minimally limit JJ's MPG. We get someting out of trading Lue (likely a marginal prospect...Brian Cook?), get to see if SJ and Batista have what it takes, and rest JJ.

It's not a perfect strategy. Not fool-proof. It will get under the skin of certain players, BUT if we're playing Oden or Thabeet in the post next year or even have Durant (with MW traded for a big) they'll be smiling, winning, even forgetting before you can finger wag and say "not in the house of Thabeet".

W

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Diesel, you make a great point about Oden possibly staying in school. People close to Oden knows that (1) he is an excellent student, and (2) he may like college life enough to stay until his junior year. That was one of the things being discussed during one of Ohio State's games a few weeks ago. Bottom line: Just because Oden could be the consensus #1, doesn't mean that it's a lock for the kid to come out this year. If Ohio St. doesn't reach its goals, he could very well return for one more year, and not go for the money . . because he knows the money will always be there whenever he decides to come out.

But when I look at the various comments in all of the threads, I just wonder what the fan base here really want?

People were so against the Iverson trade, even though adding AI to this team with JJ, would've given us the best backcourt in the league. That move may not lead to an NBA title, but it could've secured a playoff spot for us. That means that we'd have to give up some of our young talent. This is a move that a vocal minority on this board feels needs to be done in the future anyway. But they were totally against bringing in AI.

Then on the flip side, they grow tired of watching the young guys struggle at times, and have no patience to see if they can actually develop into consitent players. So when we lose, they want to throw the season away, to bring in MORE young guys who will take time to develop.

So which is it Hawks fans? Do you want to win now, by bringing in a veteran player and possibly trading off one of the kids? Or can you have the patience to see if the kids can come around to possibly win now, or next year? This board was pretty much split on if we could make the playoffs or not anyway with the current squad. So you have to pick a side, and stay with it.

It can't be an "either/or" to these questions. You have to prefer to do one or the other, and stand by what you believe.

Personally, I'll stick with the kids.

I think it's more important for this current team to build some chemistry and learn how to play with each other on both ends of the floor. So far, they haven't really had a chance to do that yet.

People are down on Marvin, but they forget that this would've been his first year as a starter. When you look at his numbers, he actually isn't playing bad, he's just not playing like we all thought he would. And you have to attribute that to him missing all of those games to start the season. There's no way that Marvin alone could replace what Al gave us offensively last year. But he does need time to see what kind of scorer he wants to be in this league. If he's not ready, then bring him off the bench and start Chill.

Plenty of people on this board have given Smoove a pass, because the excuse for him is "well he's a slow starter". Smoove actually proved them right, by becoming a much more efficient player in December, than he was in January. So my question is . . should Marvin also get the benefit of the doubt and see if he can raise his game in the month of January?

From Diesel:

If you have never played an organized sport and if you are not competitive, you don't know how losing effects a team.

If you really want us to tank, you should advocate us doing it the right way... by trading all of our good players for midround picks and ending contracts. Because otherwise, your planting the seeds for continued failure.

Somebody should frame these 3 sentences, and post it on the main page of Hawksquawk.net

Because it's the absolute truth. As a former athlete myself on the high school and college level, I've experienced both sides of the coin. And losing flat out sucks.

You think wathing your favorite team lose is bad. Trust me when I tell you that the players feel 10 times as worse as the fans do, because they're the ones actually playing the games and losing.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

If you have never played an organized sport and if you are not competitive, you don't know how losing effects a team.

If you really want us to tank, you should advocate us doing it the right way... by trading all of our good players for midround picks and ending contracts. Because otherwise, your planting the seeds for continued failure.

Somebody should frame these 3 sentences, and post it on the main page of Hawksquawk.net

Because it's the absolute truth. As a former athlete myself on the high school and college level, I've experienced both sides of the coin. And losing flat out sucks.

You think wathing your favorite team lose is bad. Trust me when I tell you that the players feel 10 times as worse as the fans do, because they're the ones actually playing the games and losing.

---

In fairness, Cleveland tanked like crazy to get Lebron James and things are looky pretty damn good for the future in Cleveland despite the stain of their tanking. Getting a franchise-changing talent cures all ills. The downside, is you are never guaranteed to get a franchise-changing talent. If Cleveland drops in the lottery like Boston did when Rick Pitino signed on then the tanking doesn't look quite as good. (If Boston had gotten Duncan it would have totally been worth it. Without him, you can second guess that strategy...along with their decision to cut ties immediately with Billups).

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

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In fairness, Cleveland tanked like crazy to get Lebron James and things are looky pretty damn good for the future in Cleveland despite the stain of their tanking.

---

Does anyone in Cleveland or elsewhere even really recall their tanking. NO. It's just what they had to do to have the best shot at the best player. It worked.

Our situation is even more dire than Cleveland's. With our ownership we have NO OTHER OPTION for improving this team aside form the draft. We aren't going to trade for talent (see Al Harrington trade). We aren't going to sign any major FAs and even if we could, would they and are their any out there that want to join this chaos?

The anywhere from say 30 to 60% chance of selecting top 3 should we end up one of the worst 3 teams in the league and the 50-50 shot of ending worst 3 I-F we tank means we may only have an overall 25% chance at this, but frankly, that percentage is at least 20% higher than any other significant franchise-changing talent coming here. Gotta go with the numbers.

W

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I think we can all agree that when the Spurs acquired Tim Duncan with the top pick in 1997, that it was the type of "fortune-changing" move that some expect a top 3 pick to always be for a franchise. Well let's go from that moment on, and see what the fortunes of the top 3 picks have been, since 1998.

1998

(1) Olowankandi - complete bust

(2) Mike Bibby - good scoring PG, but never a great one. Decent floor leader. Has experienced winning, but has slowly digressed over the past 3 years.

(3) Raef LaFrentz - journeyman big man who can shoot, but can't defend.

1999

(1) Elton Brand - has developed into one of the elite PFs in the game, but didn't win anything until a veteran PG came to his team ( Cassell )

(2) Steve Francis - tremendous all-star talent for a few years. Labeled as a selfish player who tend to self-destruct at the end of games. Could never truly handle being "the man". Currently rotting away with the Knicks

(3) Baron Davis - tremendous all-star talent who is very injury prone. Has played in a few playoff series when in Charlotte. A notch above Mike Bibby, when you talk about PGs.

2000

(1) Kenyon Martin - a very good PF when teamed with Jason Kidd, who could get him the ball in the best position to score. Was a key cog in Jersey's NBA Finals runs. Without Kidd, he's become an injury-prone, mediocre PF at best.

(2) Stromile Swift - a perennial backup F/C for almost all of his career. An athletic freak who never panned out to be anything special. 6 years later, he still hasn't developed much more than when he was a rookie.

(3) Darius Miles - good player who has serious attitude problems. Extremely athletic and shows promise of being a good SF in this league. Right now, he's merely a complimentary player.

2001

(1) Kwame Brown - widely considered a bust in most circles, but has come around to at least be a serviceable center with the Lakers. Has a chance to develop into a decent center, but nowhere near a good one.

(2) Tyson Chandler - a great rebounder and a good shot blocker, but a horrible offensive player who is a little too frail ( or soft ) to play center. Right now, Manute Bol has had a better NBA career than Tyson.

(3) Pau Gasol - a good PF/C who has stedily improved each year in the league. He can now be looked at as a franchise player, but doesn't deliver like one when playing against equal competition. Still room for him to improve though.

2002

(1) Yao Ming - was soft at first, but has rapidly developed into a dominant offensive player in the league. A perennial all-star caliber center for at least the next 5 - 8 years.

(2) Jay Williams - struggled mightily in his rookie year before his motorcycle injury effectively ended his career

(3) Mike Dunleavy - a decent G/F that a team could insert into its starting lineup, and have him be the #4 option in an offense. Nothing great about Mikey.

2003

(1) LeBron James - instantly proved he was worth all the hype. Has rapidly improved to be a top 5 caliber player in the NBA. Still may need another all-star caliber player to get to the NBA finals. But LeBron is the truth.

(2) Darko Milicic - right now, no more than a good player to bring off the bench. Arguably the worst top 3 pick since Olowokandi.

(3) Carmelo Anthony - has lived up to his hype coming out of a National Title at Syracuse. The type of impact player every great team needs. Still needs better talent around him to win . . oh wait . . he also has Iverson now. Maybe that'll be enough

2004

(1) Dwight Howard - possibly the "prototype" for future centers in the NBA. Still raw offensively, but has developed into a dominant rebounder and defensive force in the paint. Should go to many all-star games in his carrer. Team wise, he may need another all-star caliber player in order to experience playoff winning.

(2) Emeka Okafor - a shot blocking machine who is improving with each game. Team isn't talented enough to win on a consistent basis, but he is a good building block for that team to build around. Problem is . . he's already been there 2.5 years, and the team hasn't improved much at all.

(3) Ben Gordon - a streaky combo guard who looks like the 2nd coming of Vinny Johnson one minute, and the 2nd coming of Vinny Del Negro the next. A good player to have on your team, with other good to great players around him

2005

(1) Andrew Bogut - hasn't had the impact that many expected him to have. But he is improving and showing that he belongs in the NBA.

(2) Marvin Williams - athletic SF who many say has tremdous upside. Hasn't found his offensive niche yet, so his growth may be slower than expected.

(3) Deron Williams - a good young PG who understands how to play the game. He can defend. His shot needs major work. Maybe a few all-nba defensive teams in the future.

So there you have it . . . the top 3 picks from 1998 - 2005.

Comments? Questions? Still want to tank to get a top 3 pick?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Quote:

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Quote:

---

If you have never played an organized sport and if you are not competitive, you don't know how losing effects a team.

If you really want us to tank, you should advocate us doing it the right way... by trading all of our good players for midround picks and ending contracts. Because otherwise, your planting the seeds for continued failure.

Somebody should frame these 3 sentences, and post it on the main page of Hawksquawk.net

Because it's the absolute truth. As a former athlete myself on the high school and college level, I've experienced both sides of the coin. And losing flat out sucks.

You think wathing your favorite team lose is bad. Trust me when I tell you that the players feel 10 times as worse as the fans do, because they're the ones actually playing the games and losing.

---

In fairness, Cleveland tanked like crazy to get Lebron James and things are looky pretty damn good for the future in Cleveland despite the stain of their tanking. Getting a franchise-changing talent cures all ills. The downside, is you are never guaranteed to get a franchise-changing talent. If Cleveland drops in the lottery like Boston did when Rick Pitino signed on then the tanking doesn't look quite as good. (If Boston had gotten Duncan it would have totally been worth it. Without him, you can second guess that strategy...along with their decision to cut ties immediately with Billups).

---

LOL @ Cleveland tanking. This was Cleveland's team that year.

http://databasebasketball.com/teams/teamye...LE&lg=N&yr=2002

That team was just sorry. That's like saying that we tanked in 2003, to the get #2 pick. We were just sorry.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

If you have never played an organized sport and if you are not competitive, you don't know how losing effects a team.

If you really want us to tank, you should advocate us doing it the right way... by trading all of our good players for midround picks and ending contracts. Because otherwise, your planting the seeds for continued failure.

Somebody should frame these 3 sentences, and post it on the main page of Hawksquawk.net

Because it's the absolute truth. As a former athlete myself on the high school and college level, I've experienced both sides of the coin. And losing flat out sucks.

You think wathing your favorite team lose is bad. Trust me when I tell you that the players feel 10 times as worse as the fans do, because they're the ones actually playing the games and losing.

---

In fairness, Cleveland tanked like crazy to get Lebron James and things are looky pretty damn good for the future in Cleveland despite the stain of their tanking. Getting a franchise-changing talent cures all ills. The downside, is you are never guaranteed to get a franchise-changing talent. If Cleveland drops in the lottery like Boston did when Rick Pitino signed on then the tanking doesn't look quite as good. (If Boston had gotten Duncan it would have totally been worth it. Without him, you can second guess that strategy...along with their decision to cut ties immediately with Billups).

---

LOL @ Cleveland tanking. This was Cleveland's team that year.

http://databasebasketball.com/teams/teamye...LE&lg=N&yr=2002

That team was just sorry. That's like saying that we tanked in 2003, to the get #2 pick. We were just sorry.

---

Of course we tanked to get the #2 pick in 2005. We avoided making significant FA additions, traded away our only veteran presence (Antoine Walker), and let Harrington sit out the remainder of the season at the end to get the young guys experience and avoid winning as much as possible.

In 2003-04, we should have tanked but played our rears off at the end of the season and ended up getting boned in the draft.

* * * * * *

The list of drafts you put up there is nice and all, however it assumes all drafts are created equal. It has been known for years in advance that the 2007 draft with Oden, Durant, etc. would be one of the strongest in recent NBA history. Oden has been tabbed as one of the can't miss prospects like Duncan, Shaq and Lebron. The track record of these guys is fantastic and can't be compared to people like Kwame Brown and Michael Olowokandi.

[DrReality]

He's a man on a mission to show Philly they made a mistake. I agree. . . . . wait til Mello comes back. Only one basketball to a team.

[Diesel]

Yeah but how many of the players who were there before Lebron are there now.

Big Z is the only one...

Ricky Davis.. Gone.

Carlos Boozer... Gone.

Darius Miles.... Gone.

Dejuan Wagner... Gone.

Chris Mihm... Gone

Milt Palacio... Gone.

You can't tank and keep the same players. Tanking says to a player..... You're not good enough. Think of what tanking will do to Joe Johnson and Josh Smith. It will eat them alive to know that they're going out and seen as not good enough.

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

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You can't tank and keep the same players. Tanking says to a player..... You're not good enough. Think of what tanking will do to Joe Johnson and Josh Smith. It will eat them alive to know that they're going out and seen as not good enough.

---

They'll get over having their feelings hurt real fast with Oden or Thabeet behind them. Diesel, I dont agree that players feelings would get hurt anymore with a short-term slight verses long-term resignation and I believe a franchise talented 7'er heals all petty wounds to pride. Who knows, it might wake a few players up also.

If we were worrying about players feelings we wouldn't have consistently had 5, 6'8" forwards to play with. Somebody's feelings are always hurt in that situation and there's no 7'er at the end of the rainbow to rub their tense little over-burdened shoulders.

W

[Popeye]

Wow, look at the Iverson! 6-22 from the floor, 3 assist and 5 TO.

Nuggets lost by 11 to Hornets without Paul, West, Stojakovic, Bobby jackson.

[Diesel]

It's not about feelings??

It's about their confidence.

Again, if you're gung ho about tanking, and you really think this team sucks, then you should be suggesting that we start over and trade everybody for ending contracts and draft picks.

All day long, you [censored] about how this team is not built right... How in the hell do you think adding one player is going to fix a broken foundation.