That's It! I've Concluded Big Dog has to go.....

[TheDude]

Yes, we have all debated on who is the hold back on this team. Some of us have said big dog, other have said reef, and a few others say Terry. Oh, I forgot Theo too....

But seriously as much offense(let me specify midrange jumpers) as Big Dog brings, he's just not the material we need. Reef can take over games not just offensively but on the boards, athletically, and in emotion(although sometimes not enough in this department). Terry can get on a roll and just start shooting 3's lights out. Clutch also. Emotion. Theo, well theo isn't all that great but it's hard to find a good center and I think he's gotten alot better now that he's gotten his feel for the game back..

But the only time Big Dog can take over a game is when he starts hitting alot of midrange jumpers and scores alot. But you never seem him slam one home and get excited and pump everyone up. Basically you don't see him just go nuts and take over. For the "veteran" on the team he doesn't preach defense and keep the team motivated. The young guys can't look to him for leadership and motivation.

I'm not dissing Glenn but he needs to be on a team that has leaders and hard workers but needs some scoring(like Detroit).

[Diesel]

In reply to:

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But the only time Big Dog can take over a game is when he starts hitting alot of midrange jumpers and scores alot.

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Yeah.. And?

In reply to:

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But you never seem him slam one home and get excited and pump everyone up.

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I can say the same about Tim Duncan and Joey Dumars. Those guys never seem to get excited. Never wave the towel or pump the fist. However, they were not players you just got rid of...

In reply to:

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Basically you don't see him just go nuts and take over

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IS that what you need? A guy who just takes over? You must have loved JR Rider and hated Smitty. Because Rider would just take over. Smitty never really took over. Smitty played within the gameplan.

It seems to me that you like the one on one aspect of basketball. Well, times are changing. What really works now and will be big in the future is team play. All the rules are forcing that. Most of the good teams now... Dallas, Sactown, Detroit, NJ .... have stars but mostly win because they play TEAM basketball. For instance. Micheal Finley could go out everynight and score 40. He has that kind of game... But he doesn't. He plays team ball and it wins in Dallas.

Now the thing we need to understand about all of our players is that they all have a place. Last night, we did something we should have been doing all season. FEEDING the hungry man. Reef was our first option, everybody knew it. That's what would work for us. Terry has to have the court awareness to be able to feed the hungry man and to make sure the dog gets fed too. However, Terry is not a floor general. He can run the offense and he surely can't make adjustments on the floor. He's not a floor general. Most of that is Lon's fault. Lon spent so much time flip flopping JT trying to make up for his own limitations as a coach and JT never learned how to be a PG (Something The great one tried to do with JT all along). The other part of the fault there is JT. He's been lazy at becoming a PG. He likes to be the off guard. He likes to move without the ball and not be responsible for running the show. That's why I ask if it's worth it to invest more time into trying to fit JT into a PG. He's a very good player but an average PG.

Lastly, about Big Dog. Whoever coaches him next must realize that he is a TOOL and know when to use him and how. We didn't. We played him as a Point Forward at the beginning. Lately he has played a little closer to the offense but we still have to find that trust to play with trust.

[Playmaker0017]

Diesel,

All your rebuttals are worthless.

Tim Duncan has FAR more than a midrange jumper and can bring a LOT to the table, outside of emotion.

Reef is not a cat who is going to show a ton of emotion either and Doc Hawk wanted to keep him.

As for the "yeah and..." comment. The answer is: he shoots a pathetic percentage. Commits far too many turnovers. Can't dribble. Can't rebound agressively. Can't play defense. Nor can he bring the crowd to its feet. He can't do anything.

So, the guy can put up 40 points a night, but if his man is putting up 39, it is essentially neutralized. If he is single-handedly giving the other team 4 possessions a night, then there are issues.

Big Load must go.

Last night, you talk about feeding the "hungry man". Well, Big Loaf still led the team in shots.

Play.

[TheDude]

simple...you're preaching team ball and passing....big dog is the antithesis of a passing, team player....

instead of "He shoots, he scores!", it's more like"He gets the ball, he shoots!"

[KB21]

....far to often, the offensive set disintegrates when the ball gets in his hands. Now, every once in a while, Glenn will play within the offense and actually act like a part of the offense. When that happens, he typcially shoots a high percentage because he's not forcing shots, opting to hit an open man instead.

But, Glenn always seems to revert back to the "Shoot or die" role.

This was a problem with him in Milwaukee as well. George Karl got through to him for the latter part of the 2000-2001 season, and the results were a hot Milwaukee team that made a run to the Eastern Conference Finals.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

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Diesel,

All your rebuttals are worthless.

Tim Duncan has FAR more than a midrange jumper and can bring a LOT to the table, outside of emotion

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Sorry, but emotion was the basis that the previous poster brought up. So I mentioned Duncan and Dumars who had careers as guys who really didn't pump the fist or get the crowd into the game.

In reply to:

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As for the "yeah and..." comment. The answer is: he shoots a pathetic percentage.

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Really.

He shoots 42.7 percent.

Alot of you wanted Spreewell who shoots 40.4%.

Some of you talked about MoPete who shoots 38.5%.

Glenn Rice... 41.3% (I heard his name mentioned)

Eddie Griffin...39.5% (His also).

For the crowd who keeps chanting Odom... 42.6%.

And for the Rick Fox fame... 42.8%.

What exactly is pathetic?

In reply to:

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Can't rebound agressively.

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You were caught in the moment that time right?

If Big Dog can't rebound aggressively, why is he almost outrebounding our starting C? How many Sfs can you name in the league behind KG that is pulling down more than 6.8 boards a contest. Let me tell you, it's a small list. I think it goes KG, Marion, Big Dog, Lewis. Check and tell me.

It's one thing to dislike Big Dog for whatever reason... However, to try to misrepresent what he has done here is not good. I know that big Dog has his flaws. All of our players do. JT is not a good PG. SAR is undersized. Theo is a horrid Rebounder. However, if you going to call somebody out, first single out the real problem. Moving Big Dog won't make Theo a better rebounder. Moving Big Dog, won't make JT a better PG. All moving big dog will do is once again create a hole at Sf.

[Playmaker0017]

Diesel,

High rebounding doesn't equate to rebounding prowess.

His high number of rebounds is partially due to his "out-of-place" style of defense. His man puts off a shot, someone else had to cover and Big Loaf is cherry picking the rebound.

I've never seen him hustle in for a rebound. They are gimmes. I am 6'6". If I played in the NBA and got minutes... just standing around I could average 2-5 rebounds, just on sheer luck.

As for the pathetic shooting percentage... the difference is those guys don't force feed their spot in the offense. Or they bring something else, al a' defense or ball handling. When your only asset is being a shooter and you aren't doing that too well, then you have issues.

Plus, let me ask... does any one of them shoot as many times per game as Big Loaf? No, I don't think so. I could be wrong, but my guess is no.

Play.

[TheDude]

my only thing is that we were the same without big dog record wise with Dj in the lineup instead...nazr didn't play anything too much better than theo but our record is still the same..

and dj could get ups and throw down and inspiring play...the constant thrum(word?) of midrange jumpers is no good for a guy whose teammates mistakenly think of him as the gotoguy.

[Diesel]

Don't just say it's big Dog.

Theo doesn't rebound or score as much as Nazr did. Yes he plays good defense, but what helps Reef more, good defense or another low post scorer.

Toni was a better ball handler than Dog. That's not a slight on Dog. Toni just makes those around him better. It's happening in Milwaukee as we speak. Toni would be perfect for this team if he could be trusted to play more than 40 games per year. He can't. Getting Big Dog was a great pick up.

DJ played outstanding defense. HE would play the teams best offensive Gaurd/Forward and he would bother him the whole game.... He covered for JT's sorry defense.

JT only had one goto guy to throw it to. I think JT is confused by having 2 guys who can finish and can score 20. Sometimes it seems like Glover is smarter with the ball than JT. JT doesn't really run the offense.... This is huge when we talk chemistry. Yes, Marbury does the same thing. However, Marbury has been placed with Guys who can take over the offense (Penny, Johnson to some extent). Francis has Mobley. However, Glover or DJ is not the guy we need to run that offense. That's why I often question is keeping JT worth the pain. He will need an OG to run the show for him. His mentality is OK, I pass it off and I set up.. NO reads on the defense. I think it will take MUCH coaching to change him. Or maybe we do like we did last night. Make JT pass it to Reef everytime down. That's what he's use to.

One other thing that has to change. Reef will have to learn to pass out of the post. I think we can work if we route the offense through Reef. However, he will have to learn the same thing that Duncan and Malone are so good at.... How to pass out of the post. For Duncan, it's natural. However, for Malone, it was coached into him by Sloan. I think we need a sloan like Coach. One who will have a disciplined offense and defense. That will help JT become a pg. That will help Reef with his passing. We have to continue to teach and preach ROLE and Responsibility.

Continuing to trade players will only cause us to eventually make a bad deal and be stuck with a Danny Fortson. Look at GS. They too got too Trade Happy. The talent was there all the time. However, had they not been trade happy, they could have...

Damp, Webber, Carter, Spreewell, and JT. I'm not saying they would be really good, however, sometimes you miss the fortune by trading too much.

[Traceman]

a point. First it was JT and his "easy assists." Now it's Dog and his lack of "hustle rebounds." Give me a break! Let me get this straight. All of Theo's and Reef's rebounds are due to hustle but Dog only gets his boards because he is out of position? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? And to suggest he gets his rebounds because someone else rotates to his man when he gets beat is hilarious. That is what is SUPPOSED to happen when a team plays good help D! When Dog gets beat, he is SUPPOSED to go to the glass if another player rotates to pick up his man! Of course this is not really what happens because the only person who ever helps on D on this team is Theo but the fact that you would use it as justification for why Dog gets rebounds is preposterous!

Dog's rebounds are due to cherry picking and luck? I guess Dog must me one lucky SOB because he is one of the better rebounding SFs in the NBA.

You knock Dog's shooting percentage but don't you think that the fact that he is shooting the lowest percentage of his career this year MIGHT have something to do with the personnel around him? Perhaps JT could do a better job of getting him the ball in the right spots? Guys generally don't drop from a 47% career shooting percentage to 43% shooting unless there are several factors involved.

Finally, the fact that those guys shoot LESS than Dog and shoot a WORSE percentage is certainly not an indictment of Dog. Dog's shooting percentage is down this year because he takes a lot of shots out of his comfort zone. There are a lot of reasons for that but that is the bottom line. If he took fewer shots and only took them within his comfort zone, his shooting percentage would definitely improve. Just like AI's percentage would improve if he took fewer shots. What are those guy's excuses?

[cyman3]

first of all, suppose they had Webber and Spreewell... then they might start winning and not be in the position to get Carter or Jason Terry... get my drift?

but either way, i feel yah- they are trading more than they need to....

[Playmaker0017]

Traceman,

Stick up for your buddy, Glenn. But, the truth of the matter is he isn't a high-calibre NBA player.

He is a guy with a jumper. The jumper isn't working - for whatever the reason. I don't car eif it isn't working because he quit eating SPAM. It just isn't working. And if that is the only thing you do, then you need to go. You certainly don't need to go out and force yourself into the first option role.

As for the rebounds. You don't know basketball then. He gets lazy rebounds. So does Reef, so does Theo. Everyone does. But, my guess is that 99% of his rebounds are standing rebounds.

My suggestion is you face facts, and admit that Big Loaf is not a good NBA player. He is a great shooter, with NOTHING more. That does NOT equal high caliber. That is bench material. He's on the same level as Dion Glover.

Play.

[Diesel]

Why not care about the reason.

Maybe if we had a better PG, the Jumper would work.

Maybe if we had a better offensive scheme, the jumper would work.

Your idea of if you don't understand it, destroy it is about as smart as throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

You should care. Because if we don't figure out this, what do we say when we don't have Grob and our offense still have the same failings?? At that point, with Ty Corbin Jr. playing Sf, it's too late to wish we had a 20 ppg player. Remember, coming in, Big Dog was a CONSISTENT 20/6 (47%) player. You don't think it matters that there's a drop from 47 to 43?

[cyman3]

"Maybe if we had a better PG, the Jumper would work.

Maybe if we had a better offensive scheme, the jumper would work."

- maybe if we had a 2nd ballhandler to give him the ball, the Jumper would work more efficiently.

- maybe if GROB expanded his game more than a limited jumper, we would have a better offensive scheme.

so many maybes for this team...

[Playmaker0017]

Diesel,

The fact that he hits jumpers does not impress me enough to keep him on the team. He brings NOTHING else.

He can't dribble. He can't defend. He doesn't hustle. He has poor work ethic. He won't pass. He can't pass. He has low on-court basketball IQ.

And all you offer is "maybe". I mean, maybe Terry would be the best center ever, we should try it. Maybe Terry would be the best PG ever, if he had Shaq on his team.

What I see is a very shallow player, whose only talent lies in chunking up shot-after-shot. If the shot is broken, then he offers ZERO.

Gone.

Play.

[Diesel]

He doesn't pass???

Right now amoung Sfs, he is ranked 12th in assists and is ahead of such great SFs as Marion, Butler, Halmilton, Jefferson, Kirlenko, Harpring, Mason, Lewis, Peterson, and he's only slightly behind Finley.

So let's see.

He scores about 20 per game.

He is ranked #3 in rebounding (SF) behind KG and Marion.

He has good assists numbers.

You harp on defensive stats, but you have yet to mention Terry or SAR's defensive failings? or Hustle failings?

[Guest]

As many bad passes as GR throws he should collect

a few assist...The other game he threw three bad

passes turning the ball over.He is so unskilled in

the passing and taking off the dribble part.

[Diesel]

That's not his game. He shouldn't be trying to take anyone off the dribble. Neither should Reef.

This is why I say we need to know our tools and how and when to use them.

[Guest]

He's such a limited player.He gets alot of non-hustling

rebounds, but I'd rather have Odom or someone that

has more allround talent.

[jjjohns3]