Is Sammy Sosa a HOFer?

[Admin]

Seeing as he has now gotten to 600 HRs and the question is on the front page of ESPN.com I thought I would get some of your opinions on this. Personally I think that Sosa was great for the game when he and Big Mac were having their slugfest seasons because they definitely helped to bring the game back from where it was after the strike. Of course I don't know this for certain but I am of the opinion that Sosa was juicing back then (because he went from being fairly average sized for the White Sox to being very muscular with the Cubs in a short time period). If you believe that he was on steroids, or if it is ever proven that he was, should he be allowed into the hall? I have been swayed recently by an article I read online a few months ago where it talked about guys juicing in the late 90's and why they shouldn't be penalized for it because they weren't breaking any MLB rules. I was very much against the guys that used steroids up until I read that article and now I somewhat agree with that position. It might even be brought to light someday that players were encouraged to do it in order to help bring some excitement back to the game ... but that's just my own conspiracy theory.

Anyways, should Sosa be considered for the HOF? How about Big Mac? Bonds?

[drzachary]

Juicers should not be allowed in the HOF. They should be banned from play for multiple years. MLB needs to take it seriously, like track & field (a drzachary favorite sport) has done.

I'm personally not compelled by the 'there were no MLB rules against it' argument. Wasn't it illegal in the USA?

[chillzatl]

no, he shouldn't be allowed in because the only real achievement he has that makes him worthy is the result of cheating. The same goes for Mcquire. Bonds I'm not completely decided on. He's a 100% cheater, but he also would have likely gotten in anyway, even without the roid power surge.

IMO, falling back on the "it wasn't against the rules" is nothing more than an excuse to avoid making a choice between what's right and what's wrong. Just because it's not spelled out in the rules makes it ok to cheat? Using that logic, if theft wasn't specifically written into the law books, it would be ok? What about murder? assault? rape? There really is no difference.

We've known that cheating was wrong for a long time now. 100 years ago if you were playing poker and got caught cheating, you'd likely get either a bullet or a beating. They didn't have to write rules for it because you knew it was wrong and you knew the risks you took when you cheated. Saying " the rules didn't say I couldn't have an extra card up my sleeve" didn't save you because everyone knows it's wrong to cheat!

Every athlete on the planet who has ever started taking something and soon noticed an increase in their ability knew where it came from and they also knew that it was wrong. They had to make a moral decision to keep doing it or to stop. If they didn't think it was wrong or honestly didn't know it was wrong, they wouldn't go out of their way to hide what they were doing. Just like the poker player who hides the card up his sleeve rather than openly cheating, they do so because they know it's wrong.

[Admin]

I don't deny that they knew they were doing something wrong. I certainly don't agree with steroid use. My question here though is whether they should be penalized for doing something that they weren't specifically told they couldn't do. Of course it was/is illegal to use performance enhancing drugs in the US and I certainly wouldn't nominate them for man of the year but if they followed the letter of the law according to MLB should we be able to keep them out of the HOF for it?

600 HRs is very impressive there is no doubt about that. If you take away all of the steroid stuff from Sammy (and it is possible, though unlikely, that he didn't do them) would his credentials be enough to get him in? Was he ever really a difference maker? I don't remember him ever making the Cubs a better team. Not in the way that the true HOFers make their teams.

I have to say that if his qualifications are good enough for the HOF minus the steroids I would still vote him in because there is a compelling argument to be made for him not actually breaking any MLB rules.

[troubleman]

I would like to see a positive test before I say a HOF caliber player should not be allowed in. As of right now, Sammy Sosa, McGwire, and Bonds have not failed tests, so they belong in the Hall. Pitchers who have admitted to, and were caught doctoring the ball are in the Hall of Fame, so why not allow guys who people think took steriods into the Hall of Fame.

[shug94]

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I would like to see a positive test before I say a HOF caliber player should not be allowed in. As of right now, Sammy Sosa, McGwire, and Bonds have not failed tests, so they belong in the Hall. Pitchers who have admitted to, and were caught doctoring the ball are in the Hall of Fame, so why not allow guys who people think took steriods into the Hall of Fame.

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I agree, but maybe we can put a big ol' asterisk next to 'em.

[AHF]

The Commissioner issued a memorandum in like 1990 barring players from using steroids. It was against the laws of the United States. The only thing MLB didn't have was a bargained-for drug testing policy.

I don't let in Sammy or Big Mac.

[DrReality]

He would cast a shadow on those who have gone before him that are more deserving. Didn't he also have corked bat?>

[chillzatl]

MLB has said that character should be considered when voting on potential HoF players. It's not just about raw numbers with them, as it is with the NFL. I don't know that you can get much lower character in sports than cheating.

Apart from Sammy's HR totals and season records, he's not an HoF caliber player. The same goes for McGwire. Bonds, again, is the only one I was on teh fence about, but after remembering the above, I don't think he should get in either.

Baseball has to set the bar somewhere. Is it fair that there could be other guys who did it and didn't get punished? no, but it's not fair when a judge makes an example out of one guy when previous people got off much easier. That's how things go sometimes when we let things get out of hand, someone has to fall on the sword.

[troubleman]

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MLB has said that character should be considered when voting on potential HoF players. It's not just about raw numbers with them, as it is with the NFL. I don't know that you can get much lower character in sports than cheating.

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An admitted cheater like Gaylord Perry (among others) get's in, but not Bonds, Sosa, or McGwire?

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Apart from Sammy's HR totals and season records, he's not an HoF caliber player. The same goes for McGwire. Bonds, again, is the only one I was on teh fence about, but after remembering the above, I don't think he should get in either.

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What do you mean, apart from? Apart from Gaylord Perry and Phil Niekro's career wins, they are not hall of fame caliber pitchers?

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Baseball has to set the bar somewhere. Is it fair that there could be other guys who did it and didn't get punished? no, but it's not fair when a judge makes an example out of one guy when previous people got off much easier. That's how things go sometimes when we let things get out of hand, someone has to fall on the sword.

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Is it fair to be punished by "public opinion"? I'm not a Bonds, Sosa, or McGwire fan, but how can they be punished when there are no failed tests? That is baseball's problem, not the players. I want a real penalty for cheating. 1 year suspension the first time, and a lifetime ban the second. Right now, the system is a joke, and without positive tests I don't see how anyone can say these guys don't deserve to be inducted.

[chillzatl]

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An admitted cheater like Gaylord Perry (among others) get's in, but not Bonds, Sosa, or McGwire?

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Yah that's right. Should he have gotten in? no. Am I going to use something that happened 50 years ago to excuse a bunch of cheaters now? hellz to the naw.

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What do you mean, apart from? Apart from Gaylord Perry and Phil Niekro's career wins, they are not hall of fame caliber pitchers?

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That statement would be correct...

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Is it fair to be punished by "public opinion"? I'm not a Bonds, Sosa, or McGwire fan, but how can they be punished when there are no failed tests? That is baseball's problem, not the players. I want a real penalty for cheating. 1 year suspension the first time, and a lifetime ban the second. Right now, the system is a joke, and without positive tests I don't see how anyone can say these guys don't deserve to be inducted.

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First off, we don't know that any of them never failed a test. MLB tried to pretend there wasn't a problem for so long that we don't know how deep thier lies go. They wouldn't acknowledge the problem today had it not been for all the outside pressure.

Is it fair to be punished by public opinion? Sometimes.. when you bring it on by refusing to talk about something that, if you were innocent, you could openly discuss without fear of anything. In those cases I'm pretty OK with it, because there's no reason to not talk if you don't have something to hide. They would rather invite the scrutiny upon themselves than risk having their legacies called into question because they did something that they knew was wrong. While the rules at the time may not have specifically addressed it, they KNEW it was wrong and they know that falling back on that "it wasn't against the rules" line will not prevent their legacies from being ruined.

I personally can't absolve a person of knowingly doing wrong just because rules weren't in place to spell it out or because things weren't in place to catch them. That's like saying it's ok for me to steal pencils from the supply room because the company doesn't have a camera in there to catch me.