Were we wrong about Chris Paul's defense?

[AtLaS]

I found this post on RealGM by a NOK fan that is also a moderator and definitely knows what he's talking about.

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Posted by: NO-KG-AI

Joined: 18 Jul 2005

Posts: 10933

Location: The lost city of New Orleans

This is what I got. Head to Head with top offensive PG's.

Nash: 15.8 ppg, 43.9% FG, 37.5% 3pt, 9.2 apg, 3.8 turnover.

Last Meeting: 15 points, 42.9%FG, 25% 3pt, 10 assists, 4 turnovers

Far far worse than his averages, especially the shooting percentages.

Kidd: 13.3 ppg, 34.7% FG, 30.4% 3pt, 11.5 APG, 3.3 TOPG.

Last MEeting: 18 points, 54%, 66% 3pt, 12 assists, 3 TO's(great game that was, Chris had 25/12 on 52%)

Well, J-Kidd is getting his assists, but again, he is having a horribly rough time trying to score on Chris.

Billups: 23 ppg, 50%, 35% 3pt, 8.7 APG, 2.0 TOPG.

Last match: 29/9 on 58% shooting.... ouch, of the 3 matchups, only once has Chris held him under 54%(and it was 33% that game)

3 matchups between these guys, and they seem to have no answer for each other, Billups has done a little better job stopping Chris from scoring, but Chris is at 9.3 APG, with only .7 TPG, (.9 TP48 )

Tony Parker: 15.9 ppg, 56% FG, 100%3pt(1 3 pointer taken) 6.7 APG, 2.7 TOPG.

Last meeting Parker had 6 points, on 3/8 shooting, 3 assists, and 2 turnovers in 28 minutes of play.

This is where Chris seems to have struggled the most, the Spurs really give him trouble, he shoots a terrible percentage. Parker has a nice FG%, but it's really padded by two huge games, but he also is at 4.2 TP48. On the bright side, in their l

TJ Ford: 10 ppg, 43%, 40%3pt, 3.7 apg, 2.7 TOPG

Last meeting: 2 points 1/7 shooting 3 assists, 3 turnovers.(ouch)

Chris abuses Ford, offensively and defensively. He can match Ford step for step, but he's a lot stronger. No real surprises here.

Mike Bibby: 14 ppg, 40%, 42%3pt, 4.1 APG, 2.9 TOPG.

Yeah, Bibby wants no part of Chris.

Iverson: 25.6 ppg, on 42%. That's about all you can do to AI....

Baron Davis: 22.8 ppg 50% shooting, 21% 3pt, 8 assists, 1.8 TOPG...

**** you Baron, he always is the aggressive Baron when he plays the Hornets.

Stephon Marbury: 12 ppg, 27% shooting, 13% 3pt, 5 apg, 2.5 TOPG in 41 minutes

Wow

Seems to me he has had trouble with Chauncey Billups, and that's about all, Baron a bit, but that's what he does to NO....

So the only troubles he got were from the two biggest bull dozing PG's in the league, but none have really torched us. With an elite shotblocker, his pressure D could really shine.

** End of post **

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Were we wrong about Paul's defense? These stats show that the only PGs he struggled against defensively were Baron and Billups, which are BIG PGs. Everyone else he held his own. I mean, I think we are all just judging him based on how he played defense at Wake Forest, noone on this site watches the Hornets with any regularity. NOK hasn't exactly been on TV very often, so we really haven't seen him play. I think he actually may be at LEAST an above average defender, based on everything I've seen/heard from people who actually watch him on a regular basis.

Deron is the one that TRULY sucks at defense, and I've been saying this all along. I really hope NOONE else on this site makes the claim that Deron is a good defender because he is not. Again, I'm not saying Paul is a great defender, but I don't think he's NEAR as bad as many on this site have made him out to be.

[AtLaS]

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I really hope NOONE else on this site makes the claim that Deron is a good defender anymore because he is not. Again, I'm not saying Paul is a great defender, but I don't think he's NEAR as bad as many on this site have made him out to be.

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Why am I not surprised that noone has responded to this?

[AHF]

I don't care that much about comparing them, but here are the total #s for last season:

Paul PER against 16.5

Williams PER against 15.9

Aside from going through anecdotal stats like in the above post, it appears that Williams was a slightly more effective defender last season on the whole.

[AtLaS]

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I don't care that much about comparing them, but here are the total #s for last season:

Paul PER against 16.5

Williams PER against 15.9

Aside from going through anecdotal stats like in the above post, it appears that Williams was a slightly more effective defender last season on the whole.

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I think it has to go deeper than that ONE particular stat, especially since they are SO close. Paul played injured for much of the season as well, and there are so many other factors that the "PER against" doesn't take into account.

For one, they could've been playing zone in some of those games. Secondly, Paul basically had NO help from teammates because most of them were injured. Another example is if you let your man blow by you, and the SG slides over and picks him up, and the ball is swung a few times and a player ends up with a wide open three, that ISN'T good initial PG defense, because his original mis queue made other players have to pick up different players, thus giving someone a wide open shot. This won't add to the opposing PG's stats at ALL and also won't affect the other PG's "opposing PER" even though it was still bad defense. And because their respective "opposing PER's" are so close, this has to be taken into account.

Another thing is that this particular stat ONLY takes into account 1 on 1, man to man defense, and not even accurately at that, because there are MANY opposing factors.

Even the guy that I got the quote from said in a later post,

"I'd say Paul is like this:

Above Average on ball defense

Elite at the press

Elite help defender.

Gives 100% effort throughout games...."

He even admits that he's not a great on ball defender, but that overall he's still a good defender, something that "opposing PER" doesn't take into account.

[mrhonline]

With PG's, you have to account for their interior help, which can often make a player look better on D than he really is. In this case, we'd be comparing Chandler with Okur.

[AtLaS]

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So couldn't that also be partly the reason why the Hornet's played well against other PGs and not necessarily Chris Paul? It seems like every reason you use against PER could be used against that other poster's argument.

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I actually anticipated that response, and you're right, it could and I thought that as I wrote it. My original post was basically a direct copy and paste from that quote that the NOK fan wrote. I guess that was used to support his argument, but it didn't make it. Basically everything I've read from people who have seen Paul regularly have said that he's at LEAST an average defender, not the atrocious one many on this board make him out to be. But like I said in my original post, I didn't claim he was a great defender by any means, just that he's MUCH better than given credit for on this board. And I think it's because they still have the image of him playing at Wake, most haven't seen him enough (me either) to have an opinion on how well he's done in NO.

I've seen Deron play TONS of times, and basically every time he has been bad defensively. I'm really not sure why people here give him a good rep defensively.

[AtLaS]

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With PG's, you have to account for their interior help, which can often make a player look better on D than he really is. In this case, we'd be comparing Chandler with Okur.

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I guess AK47 doesn't play for Utah?

[AHF]

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So couldn't that also be partly the reason why the Hornet's played well against other PGs and not necessarily Chris Paul? It seems like every reason you use against PER could be used against that other poster's argument.

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I actually anticipated that response, and you're right, it could and I thought that as I wrote it. My original post was basically a direct copy and paste from that quote that the NOK fan wrote. I guess that was used to support his argument, but it didn't make it.

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What you originally posted was a statistical argument that cherry-picked stats. I gave you a statistic with a more meaningful pool of information. I am not sure what else you want in response.

If you just want to rehash the same threads about whether Deron is overrated as a defender, I don't watch enough Utah basketball or care enough to offer much of an opinion.

I do think the PER statistic is more meaningful that the post you cut and paste, though.

[mrhonline]

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I guess AK47 doesn't play for Utah?

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It's usually the center or power forward that is expected to cover up the PG's defensive mistakes.

[AtLaS]

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I guess AK47 doesn't play for Utah?

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It's usually the center or power forward that is expected to cover up the PG's defensive mistakes.

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Yes but in this case Kirilenko helps out just as much (or more) than Chandler since he also helps out on the perimeter.

[AtLaS]

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I do think the PER statistic is more meaningful that the post you cut and paste, though.

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Yeah, if you're referring to the original post I cut and pasted, than you're right, it is probably more meaningful. But they are so close that other things have to be factored in.

I guess I didn't paste in that fan's entire argument, I only used those statistics that he used, which was just to support his argument, it didn't make up his entire argument. Because help defense is just as important (if not more) than man.

[exodus]

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Were we wrong about Paul's defense? These stats show that the only PGs he struggled against defensively were Baron and Billups, which are BIG PGs. Everyone else he held his own. I mean, I think we are all just judging him based on how he played defense at Wake Forest, noone on this site watches the Hornets with any regularity. NOK hasn't exactly been on TV very often, so we really haven't seen him play. I think he actually may be at LEAST an above average defender, based on everything I've seen/heard from people who actually watch him on a regular basis.

Deron is the one that TRULY sucks at defense, and I've been saying this all along. I really hope NOONE else on this site makes the claim that Deron is a good defender because he is not. Again, I'm not saying Paul is a great defender, but I don't think he's NEAR as bad as many on this site have made him out to be.

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[AtLaS]

LOL That is funny, but I guess y'all mainly only keep up with the Hawks. I am definitely a Hawks fan #1 and pretty much hate everyone else, but even if the Hawks weren't a franchise I'd still be a huge NBA fan. I just wanted to point this out since everyone here somehow seems to consider Chris Paul an Adam Morrison clone in relation to defense.