this does not sound like a coach who wants to run

[skyhawk]

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"We've got to start taking care of the basketball

and milking the shot-clock a little bit

," Woodson said. "Because we're not doing that."

I realize that we need to take care of the ball better. I also realize that if you don't fast break you may want to set up your offense, but "milking the shot clock" just doesn't read well for our team at the minimum.

W

I think your interpretation of his comment is not accurate as he's saying that if we don't have an opportunity to run - then work to get the best shot. In my mind you need to do both - run when you have the opportunity or work to get the best shot when you can't. I don't have the numbers to back this up but it seems to me that the majority of TOs occur when we're in the half court.

[Admin]

I say that we have been better in the half court because EVEN IF they turn the ball over it rarely leads to the other team going on a fast break whereas when we push the ball and try to make passes or dribble like we aren't capable of doing it ends up being stolen or taking an awful shot and the next thing you know the other team is running the other way.

I honestly don't know what you are watching if you think we have been even remotely decent running. We have been awful running lately and awful in the half court but at least in the half court we take time off the clock and can get back on defense.

[exodus]

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but we are not even CLOSE to being ready to run off made baskets.

That is what they were doing, and having success with, not long ago. But they aren't doing that now at all. They have only 1 pg and he is hobbled. They simply can't push the ball upcourt the way they were earlier in the season. They don't have the players available to do it.

Our turnovers during this past road trip have nothing to do with pushing the ball upcourt and everything to do with half court ineptitude.

The Hawks have consistently done well when pushing the ball upcourt on offense and have consistently done poorly when slowing it down, so naturally Woody wants to slow it down. The idea of milking the clock in the half court set is just ridiculous.

[exodus]

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I say that we have been better in the half court because EVEN IF they turn the ball over it rarely leads to the other team going on a fast break

LOL that is completely backwards. Turnovers are the easiest thing to run out on and the Hawks have been getting killed on points off turnovers lately.

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I honestly don't know what you are watching if you think we have been even remotely decent running.

They were 4th in the league in fast break points as of the Cavs game.

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We have been awful running lately

they haven't been able to run lately like they were earlier in the year. They have only one pg and he is hobbling.

The Hawks were averaging 20 fast break points per game for weeks.

when you fast break you can get shots off before the defense is set. When the defense is set the Hawks lack of ball handling and execution gets exposed. That is exactly what has happened the last few games.

They aren't throwing passes out of bounds when they run. They are doing it in the half court set.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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in the half court AND on the break. For this team to be successful, we need to think defense first and protect the ball on offense.

I've said this from Day 1. You're exactly right Trace.

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That said, you CAN run and protect the ball at the same time, it just means that you make high percentage plays rather than spectacular plays. Making the high percentage pass might result in getting fouled and going to the line versus getting an easy layup or dunk but in the long run, we will come out ahead.

Our problem, is that the guys who should be finishing plays off the break ( Chill, Smoove, etc ) are routinely the main ball handlers on the break. Smith almost absolutely refuses to get the ball to a guard. He's much rather start and finish the play himself with a score or a pass, than just playing the role of a finisher. And Chill is just out of control at times, even trying to go 1 on 2 ( like he did twice in the Golden St game ).

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I think we need to run off missed shots and TOs, but we are not even CLOSE to being ready to run off made baskets. Teams that can run off made baskets generally take care of the ball fairly well and we have not reached that point yet. If we have to play in the half court, so be it. We all know that Woody's half court offense sucks but really, it won't matter as much with Bibby and JJ on the floor because teams won't be able to zone us NEARLY as easily anymore. Let Bibby do what he was brought here to do - run the team.

I agree totally. And I've said that since the start of the season. If Bibby or Acie don't have the ball, I want no part of this team trying to run after a made basket. If they play defense and rebound the ball, I'm all for this team running IF they still try to get the ball to Bibby and Acie FIRST. This team is built to defend, not to run. Play some damn defense, and THEN they can start to run.

And the only bright spot since the arrival of Bibby, is the 3 point shooting. Even though Bibby has been wildly inconsistent, JJ hasn't. He's shooting right around 50% from 3 sincle Bibby arrived.

And one more thing. In the past 5 games, JJ has taken 14 or less shots in 4 of those games. We lost all 4. In the one game he took 22 shots, we won.

This team still very much lives and dies on how JJ plays. At this point, I still want the ball moved around on offense, but I also want JJ taking 20+ shots. Find him in the halfcourt or on the break. But find him.

[exodus]

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This team is built to defend, not to run. Play some damn defense, and THEN they can start to run.

That statement completely ignores reality.

The reality is that the Hawks have been successful when they run. their problems have been in the half court set.

the Hawks are probably the worst half court team (offensively) in the league. When you say you don't want to run you are saying you want to play into our weakness.

Sure guys make some mistakes on the break but those mistakes pale in comparison to the mistakes they make in the half court set. The reason obviously is that in the half court the defense is set while on the fast break they aren't.

Here lately the Hawks haven't been able to run. They have only 1 hobbled pg instead of 3 healthy ones. They have been forced into a half court game and the result has been a turnover festival.

The idea that the solution is to slow it down further is just nuts.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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That statement completely ignores reality.

The reality is that the Hawks have been successful when they run. their problems have been in the half court set.

That's REALITY? Ummm . . what is our winning percentage since Jan 1st? Your problem is that you fail to realize tht our fast break points come from turning people over, or creating transition opportnities off missed shots. As I said, I don't mind at all for the Hawks to run when those opportunities arise. That's why I say that the Hawks are built to DEFEND, not to RUN.

What I've been totally against, is FORCING the run. That's what you and a lot of others want to do. We are nowhere near a good enough team to force the run.

And I hate to break this to you and the rest of Hawksquawk, but go back and look at the games we've WON this season. In those games, the Hawks are either playing tremendous defense, or they're executing in the halfcourt. When we play defense, we have a pretty good shot at winning, IF we play under control.

This was even evident in the Golden St game. We defended and rebounded well against G-State until that 3rd quarter. Part of the reason why they scored 39 points that quarter, was because we were playing at their pace. We still scored, but playing at their pace allowed them to get back into the game when we missed shots or turned the ball over.

So for the 4th quarter, the Hawks made it a point to hunker down defensively, slow the game down by playing inside out, and limit the amount of shot opportunities that the Warriors could get by slowing them down. The result was us regaining control of the game.

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the Hawks are probably the worst half court team (offensively) in the league. When you say you don't want to run you are saying you want to play into our weakness.

I don't want to force the run by constantly trying to play fast. Playing fast hasn't translated into victories. And our fast brea points come off of forcing turnovers, especially open court turnovers. The decline in fast break points recently, almost directly correlates to the lack of defense or created turnovers via blocks and steals.

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Sure guys make some mistakes on the break but those mistakes pale in comparison to the mistakes they make in the half court set. The reason obviously is that in the half court the defense is set while on the fast break they aren't.

Here lately the Hawks haven't been able to run. They have only 1 hobbled pg instead of 3 healthy ones. They have been forced into a half court game and the result has been a turnover festival.

The idea that the solution is to slow it down further is just nuts.

Mistakes on the break can quickly go back the other way as easy fast break points. Worst, it takes away a potential possession. The senseless turnovers everywhere on the court, need to stop.

What's nuts, is you believing that our PGs have been the keys to us running in the first place. Smoove and Chill routinely have the ball once the fast break starts. If what you say were true, a guy like Acie would be routinely posting 5 - 6 assists a game. But oftentimes, Acie may have to trail a break or track down the ball, because one of our forwards are racing into the frontcourt with the ball, with nowhere to go.

Trace is right. The Hawks just try to do too much, whether it be in the halfcourt or when they try to run. I love Smoove's effort, but because he tries so hard, he's prone to make a plethora of mistakes. The same goes with JJ and Chill. These guys just need to slow down, and let the game come to them, so that they can make better decisons. Run ONLY when the opportunity presents itself. Most important, play defense and rebound the ball on a nightly basis.

[exodus]

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Your problem is that you fail to realize tht our fast break points come from turning people over, or creating transition opportnities off missed shots. As I said, I don't mind at all for the Hawks to run when those opportunities arise. That's why I say that the Hawks are built to DEFEND, not to RUN.

LOL that is pretty funny.

The Spurs were 1-17 in the first quarter. I guess that isn't good enough defense to get out and run, right? The Hawks only scored 16 pts that quarter.

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In those games, the Hawks are either playing tremendous defense, or they're executing in the halfcourt.

Wrong. We have never won with good half court execution. We have gotten strong production from running and then desperately held on while the other team makes a run and our half court exectution grinds to a halt.

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Mistakes on the break can quickly go back the other way as easy fast break points.

Turnovers on the break are less likely to be fast break points than turnovers in the half court. The obvious reason is that not everyone has gotten all the way upcourt on offense.

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What's nuts, is you believing that our PGs have been the keys to us running in the first place.

I said no such thing. What i said is that it is easier to run with 3 healthy pgs than 1 hobbled one.

Who comes in when the starters get tired? Right now the bench is paper thin and not very productive. If we wear out the starters running then we have to go to the bench which has been a disaster lately.

You have to have bodies to be able to run. The Hawks don't have them now which is why they have played at a slower pace. Hence the explosion in turnovers in the half court.

[Guest Walter]

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he's saying that if we don't have an opportunity to run - then work to get the best shot.

I don't see how you can comprehend "milk the shot clock" to equal as you put it "work to get the best shot". They are two entirely different things.

W

[Guest Walter]

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Wrong. We have never won with good half court execution. We have gotten strong production from running and then desperately held on while the other team makes a run and our half court exectution grinds to a halt.

This is 100% correct. If we were better in the half court set you would expect us to win some games that we were behind in after the half or the 3rd quarter was completed, when the game slows down considerably because the end approaches and the opposition slows it down themselves making every possession "more valuable". We are 5 and 25 if down after the 3rd quarter and 7-24 when down at the half. No team has a good record in these situations but this ain't good.

W

[thesheedera]

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he's saying that if we don't have an opportunity to run - then work to get the best shot.

I don't see how you can comprehend "milk the shot clock" to equal as you put it "work to get the best shot". They are two entirely different things.

W

I agree, and I can't the phrase "milk the shot clock" actually came out of his mouth. You only hear that from coaches who preach a low possession game, who firmly believe in slowing the pace and bleeding the other team dry.

I don't think it's a terrible philosophy in general, and I think at it's best it can actually be fun to watch. Some of Princeton's Temple's and NC State's best teams in the last few decades have been exciting despite scoring in the 50s. but when they're bad it's just atrocious.

It has a place in basketball, in COLLEGE BASKETBALL. Plus, teams usually do it because they can't match the athleticism of their competition. There is no place for a NBA team built with youth and athleticism like the Hawks to be thinking "milk the clock".

That phrase is a STRONG phrase, and should give you some indication of Woody's deep down philosophy. He can't deny it, that's who he is. He's been trying to pretend he wants to go fast, uptempo, but it's not in his DNA.

[jerrywest]

He is no coach.

[LOL_Hawks]

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It has a place in basketball, in COLLEGE BASKETBALL. Plus, teams usually do it because they can't match the athleticism of their competition. There is no place for a NBA team built with youth and athleticism like the Hawks to be thinking "milk the clock".

Which is why I think Woody would be a terrific college coach...but doing this with a pro basketball team in the NBA...it just isn't right.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Wrong. We have never won with good half court execution. We have gotten strong production from running and then desperately held on while the other team makes a run and our half court exectution grinds to a halt.

This is 100% correct. If we were better in the half court set you would expect us to win some games that we were behind in after the half or the 3rd quarter was completed, when the game slows down considerably because the end approaches and the opposition slows it down themselves making every possession "more valuable". We are 5 and 25 if down after the 3rd quarter and 7-24 when down at the half. No team has a good record in these situations but this ain't good.

W

It's actually 100% wrong.

This is exactly the reason why i told all of you who were able to do it, to RECORD THESE GAMES. When you rewatch these games . . rewind particular segments of it . . and actually comprehend what you're watching, you can see what works, and what doesn't work.

When you rewatch games, you'll see how many WIDE OPEN jumpers we miss, and how many lay-ups in traffic we blow. Modt of the blown lay-ups are a result of guys just trying to do too much by forcing the issue.

But in the games the Hawks have won this year, it's been either because of good execution in the halfcourt ( i.e. - people were making their jumpers and lay-ups ), or great defense on the other end, or a combination of both.

When JJ has big scoring games, it's from him making his shots in the halfcourt offense.

The same goes for Marvin. And I wonder what the correlation is between Marvin shooting poorly, and our struggles the past 15 or so games?

And to be honest, when Smoove has his big scoring games, it's usually from him scoring by beating his man off the dribble within the halfcourt offense. It this wasn't the case, and Smoove scored the majority of his points while we're running, we could afford to put him at SF for long stretches at a time.

The only guy that truly benefits from playing fast, is Chill. But even he is out of control at times.

When you look at the Spurs game, once again we missed a TON of wide open shots. We played well enough defensively to really extend that lead in the 1st half, but missed too many wide open shots, and made things a lot worse with the flat out dumb turnovers in the 2nd half. Whether you play fast or slow, you have to make wide open shots.

If for them to play more under control, means they have to slow ir down, or milk the clock like they did in the 4th quarter of the Golden St game, then that's what they just have to do.

[Traceman]

There is a HUGE difference between executing in the half court and milking the clock. This team is not suited to play that style of ball. We need to run when the opportunity presents itself but if we end up in the halfcourt, we need to be focused on getting a good shot rather than running down the shot clock.

I HOPE that what Woody meant by milking the clock is that we needed to share the ball rather than playing one on one and forcing up a quick shot but I have to agree with most that that is not my definition of milking the clock.

[exodus]

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And to be honest, when Smoove has his big scoring games, it's usually from him scoring by beating his man off the dribble within the halfcourt offense.

If i am not mistaken Smith has scored 30 5 times and we have lost all of those games.

If they had a stat that showed the combined points scored by free throws and fast break points we would certainly be one of the top teams in the league. But we still have trouble scoring because we are so weak in the half court. Just because we have some games when we aren't terrible in the half court doesn't mean we won with half court execution.

So many times this year we have huge leads by running in the first half and then slow things down in the second half and watch those leads disappear. Sometimes the Hawks hang on and sometimes they don't. But the pattern doesn't change.

The Hawk have had 3 games where they have scored 65 pts or more in the first half. The reason is because they run much more in the first half. But in the second half Woody likes to slow it down with a lead. The results have been horrible.

The only time the Hawks play an attacking game in the second half is when they are behind.

[AHF]

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I HOPE that what Woody meant by milking the clock is that we needed to share the ball rather than playing one on one and forcing up a quick shot but I have to agree with most that that is not my definition of milking the clock.

I can't believe that for a second, though. Milking the clock is extremely different from good execution. Milking the clock is the Pat Riley NY Knicks style of play where you run the clock down and try to keep the game close the whole way by limiting the number of offensive possessions. Woody was fantasizing about having ended the San Antonio game on top by bleeding the clock out, IMO. Milking the clock would be the worst possible offensive strategy for this team. Whenever it would be appropriate for this team to truly milk the clock, the other team will be intentionally fouling.

Milking the clock is just so very different from good selection (i.e., efficiently running your offense) that I can't believe for a second that is what Woody meant to say.

[AHF]

It boggles my mind on this thread that people are actually saying that our success is by virtue of the good job we do running a halfcourt offense. We are terrible in the halfcourt. Just aweful. I don't know where to go in a conversation if people think we are actually a good halfcourt team. I hope we improve in this but Hawks halfcourt offense is really ugly and ineffective this year.

[thesheedera]

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I HOPE that what Woody meant by milking the clock is that we needed to share the ball rather than playing one on one and forcing up a quick shot but I have to agree with most that that is not my definition of milking the clock.

I can't believe that for a second, though. Milking the clock is extremely different from good execution. Milking the clock is the Pat Riley NY Knicks style of play where you run the clock down and try to keep the game close the whole way by limiting the number of offensive possessions. Woody was fantasizing about having ended the San Antonio game on top by bleeding the clock out, IMO. Milking the clock would be the worst possible offensive strategy for this team. Whenever it would be appropriate for this team to truly milk the clock, the other team will be intentionally fouling.

Milking the clock is just so very different from good selection (i.e., efficiently running your offense) that I can't believe for a second that is what Woody meant to say.

Agreed, "milk the clock" is a VERY specific phrase. In some households it's religion, in others you'd get your mouth cleaned out with soap just for using it.

It's a distinct as describing the spread offense in football as "wide open", or a style like the Steelers as "smashmouth".

Only in the context of an end-game situation or a team in foul trouble could I see a coach use it unless he lives by it.

[exodus]

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It boggles my mind on this thread that people are actually saying that our success is by virtue of the good job we do running a halfcourt offense. We are terrible in the halfcourt. Just aweful. I don't know where to go in a conversation if people think we are actually a good halfcourt team. I hope we improve in this but Hawks halfcourt offense is really ugly and ineffective this year.

The funny thing is that there was no evidence of "milking the clock" last night. If anything it seemed the Hawks were looking to push the ball and take the first good shot available.