Listening to a rant on Rome's show

[Diesel]

A Guest host talking.

He said something that is so true.

He said in football, at draft time, the draft guru's break down a guy. They basically tell all his weaknesses and even if he's a player who has done well, they cut him down to size.

While in basketball, at draft time, the draft guru's project a guy. They basically look at a guy and disregard most of his shortcomings and project what he could be.

I guess it's because of the amount of players that will be considered in the draft....

But I have never seen a Football player projected.

Moreover,

I wonder what we would have if we would have used a football draft mentality in 2004, 2005, and 2006.

Would we have taken the skinny Chillz who took his team to a 21-2 record but had an ugly shot (mechanically) and thrived in an uptempo game but had no information about his halfcourt play?

Would we have taken Marvin who sat the bench at UNC. Looked bad at the tourney.

Would we have chosen Shelden who was a great college defensive player but lacked size.

I doubt we would have taken those guys but Chillz may have still been our pick.

Would we have taken Iguodala, Deng, Paul, Deron, Roy?

I think our picks would have been:

Childress, Deron, and Roy.

[cam1218]

It is tough looking at the boxscores, and wondering what might have been. A lot of people had Marvin ranked really high in their mock drafts. Would I take Williams or Paul over him? Of course! But I still believe the Shelden over Roy was our dumbest pick. Joe and Roy would've been a great 1-2 punch. A couple of 2guards that can handle the ball. Shelden isn't even playing in Sacramento right now. Marvin isn't great, but his short comings aren't his fault. We were the ones that drafted him with our #2 pick.

[Diesel]

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It is tough looking at the boxscores, and wondering what might have been. A lot of people had Marvin ranked really high in their mock drafts. Would I take Williams or Paul over him? Of course!

But I still believe the Shelden over Roy was our dumbest pick.

Joe and Roy would've been a great 1-2 punch. A couple of 2guards that can handle the ball. Shelden isn't even playing in Sacramento right now. Marvin isn't great, but his short comings aren't his fault. We were the ones that drafted him with our #2 pick.

I have to disagree with you here.

I still think we did right picking Shelden even if he didn't work out. Here's why.

First Roy

Roy never showed any indication that he would play PG. He was a SG and at best an OG.

Roy turned us down for a predraft workout twice. Nobody wants to replay Steve Francis draft day again.

It was insinuated that Roy had a deal with PTL going into the draft. Being that he and Nate had history and Roy's agent (Shelden's agent) made it happen.

About Shelden.

Shelden was the best defensive Big coming out of the draft.

Shelden had been a beast in college and came in 3rd in player of the year voting.

Shelden had proven himself in international competition by being the MVP of the University Games. He dominated those against the likes of Bargani and others. His team was Foye and other famous names.

Al Harrington would either have to be paid a handsome amount or he would leave and we'd get nothing had we not gotten a replacement in here.

Now it's easy to look back on Shelden and say "what a goof". However, he was the original Horford and there was nobody moaning when we picked Horf because Horf worked out.

So Diesel what was our "dumbest" Pick.

First it wasn't Shelden for reasons stated.

It wasn't Chillz because at the time we picked Chillz we had nothing and Chillz hasn't been so bad.

However, when you have 5 Sfs on the roster.. no PG, no C... and you pick a Sf over 2 great Pg and some good C prospects... that Sf better be the s---. For if he is not... then it was an extremely dumb pick.

[DJlaysitup]

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About Shelden.

Shelden was the best defensive Big coming out of the draft.

Shelden had been a beast in college and came in 3rd in player of the year voting.

Shelden had proven himself in international competition by being the MVP of the University Games. He dominated those against the likes of Bargani and others.

Shelden is the one guy that I can't figure out. I give props to those that didn't want him (like Walt)...still...I can't believe he has fallen so far and so fast. He came in with an "NBA-ready" body and had shown skills at the highest level of NCAA basketball. ?? WTF??

[DJlaysitup]

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....Marvin isn't great, but his short comings aren't his fault....

Well you pretty much nailed the HS mentality on Marv.

Draft failures by BK:

Marvin over CP3/MVP and Deron (#2)

Chillz over Deng and Iggy (#6)

Shelden (#5)

.....and a host of second round failures when many of us were screaming - GET MILSAP!!!

BK gets NO CREDIT for drafting Al Horford...a blind man from Mars could have done that...

What he did do was take Acie at the #11. The jury is still out on that pick - but it ain't looking good so far.

[Traceman]

NOBODY (well nobody other than you and Hawks' management) thought that Shelden was worthy of being a top 5 pick and NOBODY thought he was the right pick for the Hawks. All of the draft gurus pretty much said the same thing. Shelden was a great college player who was able to overpower the competition at the college level but his lack of size, his lack of athleticism and his lack of skills project him to be an average NBA player AT BEST. That same opinion was shared by virtually everyone on this board and it was 100% right on!

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Now it's easy to look back on Shelden and say "what a goof". However, he was the original Horford and there was nobody moaning when we picked Horf because Horf worked out.

Easy to look back? What a joke! EVERYONE KNEW it was a bad pick at the time it was made! We all talked about who we wanted to take and Shelden was the choice of VERY few. Most wanted Brandon Roy or Randy Foye as the best players available. PERIOD. The fact that neither was a pure PG but that both could play minutes at PG was cotton candy to me and most. People at the draft party WENT NUTS and booed the pick like no other pick I have heard in recent Hawks history. I actually felt sorry for Shelden because he didn't pick himself. I was at the draft parties when we took Marvin and Chillz and while SOME in the audience disagreed with the picks, there were FAR more cheers than boos for both guys.

Calling Shelden "the original Horford" is like calling Ed Gray the original JJ. All the experts projected Horford as a top 3 pick. There was no reach going on. The only way we could have screwed that up is by picking your boy Yi.

Dominating an 18 year old Bargnani was supposed to validate Shelden as an NBA player? How? Bargnani STILL plays like a SF and I'm sure he was even less physical then.

The ONLY good thing about the drafting of Shelden was that we were able to use his salary to include him in a trade for Bibby.

As for Chillz, he wasn't a BAD pick but like Marvin, he CLEARLY wasn't the BEST pick either. Just like Paul and Deron are clearly better than Marvin, Deng and Iggy are CLEARLY better than Chillz.

If I had to rank the above 3 picks from worst to best, Shelden was the worst by FAR, Marvin was next and Chillz was last. The reason that Chillz is last is because of how great Paul has become. Deng and Iggy are terrific players but Paul is a legitimate MVP candidate.

[Diesel]

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About Shelden.

Shelden was the best defensive Big coming out of the draft.

Shelden had been a beast in college and came in 3rd in player of the year voting.

Shelden had proven himself in international competition by being the MVP of the University Games. He dominated those against the likes of Bargani and others.

Shelden is the one guy that I can't figure out. I give props to those that didn't want him (like Walt)...still...I can't believe he has fallen so far and so fast. He came in with an "NBA-ready" body and had shown skills at the highest level of NCAA basketball. ?? WTF??

It's a mystery. However, I wonder how would his career had gone if he had not gotten the injured shoulder and tried to play through it?? He should have just went to the IR and come back.

I think that staying and playing through it with dimished skills help Woody set the table for keeping him in the doghouse. Even though, at the end of last season, he came on strong. Even now, he puts up better numbers per minute than the guys who play ahead of him....but, I don't have the privilege of having the time to watch Sactown games.

[Traceman]

Shelden SUCKS and he was always going to suck as an NBA player. It was as sure as the sun coming up tomorrow.

[Diesel]

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NOBODY (well nobody other than you and Hawks' management) thought that Shelden was worthy of being a top 5 pick and NOBODY thought he was the right pick for the Hawks. All of the draft gurus pretty much said the same thing. Shelden was a great college player who was able to overpower the competition at the college level but his lack of size, his lack of athleticism and his lack of skills project him to be an average NBA player AT BEST. That same opinion was shared by virtually everyone on this board and it was 100% right on!

The problem is the ignoring of need. Had BK went out and got yet another SG/SF.. he would have been fired at the draft. BK didn't like Foye... so what's left to do... either trade down and take a possible lesser talent or take a guy who dominated the college game.

Let me let you in on a secret Trace...

All the dominant post players who will play in the league will be college players. There's no dominate post Euro players coming into the league. Hence. If Shelden is dominating College competition... what do you think will happen in the pros? There's no unseen source of 7 footers who are not coming from college. It was a gamble that the ASG made...

and guess what.

They made it again with Horf.

Horf dominated the college competition the same way Shelden did.

He overpowered them. (that's what I meant originally).

However, nobody batted an eye when we took him.

The point is that with our situation being what it was, having to grab a big. NOT being able to get Aldridge... I think we made the right choice AT THE TIME. The gamble didn't work out.

[Admin]

in wanting him and thinking that he could make it at this level. The experts were saying that his projected downside was Dale Davis and he wasn't anything close to Dale Davis but had he been he would have solved a lot of problems for us. Shelden was expected to provide toughness, intelligence, shot blocking, rebounding, and a ready to go NBA game after a full career at Duke. The problem people had was the supposed promise that we made to Shelden, which if that was true, was a huge mistake. Many people wanted Roy, probably most, but Diesel was far from alone in thinking Shelden would make a difference for us. Hell the last month of the season he averaged a double double and looked like he was ready to prove that he can be a good NBA player when healthy.

I know people are upset that we didn't get Roy but in all likelihood Roy wouldn't be nearly the player with us that he is now because he isn't an effective PG and he would have only taken minutes away from JJ or forced JJ to play the point, which he shouldn't be doing. So we would be stuck with having Roy back JJ up and that team would not be as good as the team with Bibby on it.

[Diesel]

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Shelden SUCKS and he was always going to suck as an NBA player. It was as sure as the sun coming up tomorrow.

You said 100% of everybody knew Shelden would be a flop...

OK...

I know you hate the fact that history is somewhat preserved on line huh...

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SHELDEN WILLIAMS

Position: Forward

Height/Weight: 6-9, 250

Birthdate: October 21, 1983 (Oklahoma City, OK)

College: Duke

Along with David Robinson and Pervis Ellison, Williams is the only player in NCAA history to record 1,500 points, 1,000 rebounds, 350 blocks and 150 steals. In other words, the 6-9 forward from Duke can do it all. Williams was First Team All-American as a senior and was the ACC’s Defensive Player of the Year in his final two years at Chapel Hill. Williams is a prolific collegiate shot blocker and rebounder and earned the nickname “The Landlord” for his dominating presence in the paint. For being such a bruising forward down on the block, Williams is surprisingly versatile and quick on the floor. After four years at Duke – where he finished as the school’s all-time leading rebounder – Williams obviously has a ton of big-game experience. His muscular frame works against him just a little, however, as he lacks fluidity in his movement. But that’s a small drawback for NBA squads looking for a solid, hard-working low-post threat in the mold of former Dukie, Elton Brand.

Click here

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Team: Atlanta

Draft spot: No. 5

Projected: No. 5 by NBADraft.net, No. 5 by DraftExpress.com, No. 5 by ESPN

Positives: Hawks needed a big man…Is NBA ready for the rigors to down low…should be a major force in the paint because of his size, shot-blocking ability and rebounding skills…winner…will be a good scorer in terms of field goal percentage…could very well take the same path Carlos Boozer did before receiving max contract…can focus on playing and maintaining the paint with the versatility that Atlanta has on it's roster…will quickly become Salim Stoudamire's best friend…knows how to find big time shooters

Negatives: Offensively, he's still limited…needs to loosen up in the post, become more fluid of an athlete…needs to learn how to use his mind over muscle now that he is in the NBA

How does he fit: Should be a big player off the bench at first because of Atlanta's depth at the wing forward position. Atlanta needed an enforcer and someone to stabilize the paint with a team that features a number of athletic, young wings. Should see starter's minutes sooner than later.

Misc. Notes: Only player to average a double-double at Duke…has plenty of double-double potential in the NBA.

Click here

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helden Williams Profile

Meat, potatoes and a lunch pail: That's Shelden Williams. The 6-foot-9, 250-pound Duke product averaged 18.8 points, 10.7 boards, 3.8 blocks and 1.7 steals for the Blue Devils as a senior, earning First Team All American as a senior and National Defensive Player of the Year honors as both a junior and senior. Williams goes to work on both ends as he owns Duke records for single season and career blocks as well as career rebounds. Nicknamed "The Landlord", Williams registered a triple-double in a game as a senior with 19 points, 11 rebounds and 10 blocks against Maryland.

Shelden Williams Strengths

Williams is a hard-nosed worker who brings it night in and night out. Ready to contribute right away with a strong, NBA-ready body. Tremendous wingspan that makes him a terror blocking shots - was fourth in the nation in swats at 3.8 a night. Strong rebounder - has a real nose for the ball. Strong character guy who plays with a lot of passion and energy.

Shelden Williams Weaknesses

Not a very smooth player - his offensive game is stiff and brute-like. Not very skilled scoring inside when facing the basket. Not a great passer. May not have much room to improve -- scouts just don't see the "upside" in Williams that they do in Aldridge and Thomas.

Shelden Williams on the Houston Rockets?

Though Shelden Williams isn't the flashiest pick in this season's draft, I'm partial to players with motors like the one he has. He won't put up the kind of numbers in the NBA that he did at Duke, but if you select Shelden Williams, there's a good chance you won't have to worry about the power forward position for many years. That's not something the Rockets can say right now with Juwan Howard and Stromile Swift.

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There wasn’t a better post player in college basketball last season and, in reality, he was just as deserving of the National Player of the Year honors that teammate J.J. Redick and Adam Morrison of Gonzaga dominated. He’s not going to be a standout as a scorer in the NBA but seems capable of being a near-double figure rebounder if given the opportunity. He’s a lock to be chosen in the lottery . . . maybe somewhere in the top 10.

Click here.

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Atlanta- Shelden Williams, PF, Duke (# 5), Solomon Jones, C, South Florida (# 33)

The Hawks’ pick was known for months before the draft. Atlanta had promised Shelden Williams that he would be their selection before the NBA draft lottery. Williams is an outstanding rebounder and shotblocker who is a warrior inside. Williams has excellent strength as he bench pressed 185 pounds 25 times, second best in the Orlando pre-draft camp. He is a hard worker who has good low post moves and has worked hard to improve his foot work. Williams is a good low post scorer who needs to expand his range and away from the basket game. He does a good job of drawing fouls and has worked hard to improve his touch from the free throw line. The Hawks did not have a player on their roster who averaged more than eight rebounds, so Williams will be a good fix on the boards. The Hawks could have traded down in the draft and still got Williams, but there was talk that Minnesota or Boston might grab the former Duke standout. Solomon Jones is a thin active big man who made the Portsmouth Invitational All-Tournament team. He needs to continue to add strength to his frame, although he did put on eight pounds since Portsmouth. The Florida native is a good shotblocker who runs the floor well. He is a project who could pay off, but needs added bulk before he is ready to bang with stronger players in the NBA.

Yeah...

it was stated he won't be a flashy scorer like he was at Puke, but at the same time... it was stated that he could be the next Brand or Boozer...

Or did you selectively forget that?

100%??

What's that hyperboyle?

[Atlantaholic]

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Horf dominated the college competition the same way Shelden did.

He overpowered them. (that's what I meant originally).

However, nobody batted an eye when we took him.

The point is that with our situation being what it was, having to grab a big. NOT being able to get Aldridge... I think we made the right choice AT THE TIME. The gamble didn't work out.

Do you really believe all the B.S. you spew? What are you a Duke fan??? (why do I even have to ask? your posts reek of such intense homerism that it is definitely a certainty at this point.)

It would take about one second of film to see the difference between Al, the insane athlete, Horford and Shelden, the robot, Williams.

Shelden was not even projected to be picked in the top 10 (during one of the weakest drafts of recent memory) While Horford was pretty much a consensus top 5 player in a much stronger draft.

In the NBA athleticism is easily perhaps the single most important attribute you look for in a player... Everyone in the world knew Shelden had little athletic ability, and everybody projected him low in the draft because of it... EVERYBODY. (except BK, and you)

To say Horford was a similar gamble is not only ridiculous, but flat out disingenuous. You know it isn't true, and are lying to us and perhaps to yourself about it... The NBA world let out a collective gasp of of shock as the Hawks picked Shelden at #5, and later every publication either gave us low grades in our draft or flat out made fun of us... After the Horford pick everybody in the NBA world said: "Finallly, BK has picked the right guy"

How are the situations the same??? How are they even CLOSE to being approximate to similar???

[Cwell]

That draft I wanted Marcus Williams at 5 (because after passing on Paul and still not having a PG I jumped on the best one every draft) so far i've been wrong.I liked Rondo but I didn't see him play much in college but I really like him after I saw him in summer league after the draft.This year I wanted Conley,and it's pretty obvious why I don't jump at every mistakes Acie makes.It's obvious Acie is gonna be a good starter at worst,at best an All-Star

[Traceman]

If BK didn't like Foye or Roy, he should have done what POR/MIN did and make a trade. He should have done ANYTHING other than trying to make an unathletic, unskilled 6'8 guy our Center. I rooted for Shelden when he was here and I tried to support him when others bashed him but he was never the right pick. I don't hate the guy, in fact, I like him. He didn't draft himself. Still, he sucks.

Shelden is not and never will be a dominant post player in the NBA and it was OBVIOUS that he was never going to be. Outmuscling the likes of a string bean freshman like Tyrus Thomas gets him nothing in the NBA. Big Country (who was actually better than Shelden in the NBA) dominated in college. Stanley Roberts dominated in college. The NBA is a grown man league full of guys whjo are bigger, stronger, more athletic and more skilled than Shelden will ever be.

Comparing Horford to Shelden is a joke. It was OBVIUOUS that he was going to be a LOT better than Shelden due to his superior size, athleticism and skill. Horford played an unselfish role on a back to back national title contender but it was ALWAYS obvious that he was the best player on that team. That is why the experts had him rated as the 3rd best player in the draft. YOU were the one who questioned drafting Horford in support of drafting the great Yi and YOU were the one who said that he didn't have Shelden's credentials. Nobody batted an eye because EVERYONE could see Horford's talent and NO ONE could see Shelden's talent (because he had none).

Taking Shelden was NOT the right choice. If BK had just stuck to his philosophy of drafting the best player available and letting the talent sort itself out, we would have been MUCH better off. Even if he screwed up with Marv and Chillz, at least they can play and they both have trade value. Shelden's only trade value was that of a salary slot to make the salaries match in the Bibby trade.

[Atlantaholic]

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I know people are upset that we didn't get Roy but in all likelihood Roy wouldn't be nearly the player with us that he is now because he isn't an effective PG and he would have only taken minutes away from JJ or forced JJ to play the point, which he shouldn't be doing. So we would be stuck with having Roy back JJ up and that team would not be as good as the team with Bibby on it.

What?!

Why is this logic valid... both JJ and Roy can play THREE positions... how would it be difficult AT ALL to get them minutes... If anything Roy would at least be able to give JJ some rest minutes so that he doesn't admittedly get tired and hoist up threes at key moments of the game.

It would be the easiest thing in the world to get each of them 36 minutes a game or even 38... If anything Chill's and Marvin's minutes would go down with JJ playing a lot more SF (which is in all honesty probably his natural position right now). Getting Roy would make either of those expandable and our flexibility for trades would be IMENNSE.

Having a core of Roy - SG, JJ - SF, JS - PF + 2007 lottery pick , and having BOTH Chilldress and Marvin as bargaining chips to get a PG??? We would be in an infinitely better position than we are now.. It's not even close to debatable.

[Diesel]

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To say Horford was a similar gamble is not only ridiculous, but flat out disingenuous.

The problem is that taking Horford was indeed the same gamble.

Horford is 6'8 - 6'9 too.

Horford dominated college by his strength and athleticism.

Horford hasn't looked that good against Big Centers either.

The difference is Horf is a much better athlete AND Woody hasn't been so quick to pull the cord on Horf.

Hell, Horf has been allowed to play through mistakes. Shelden never had that luxury.

Look at it. Shelden finish off last season averaging a double double... being the bruiser he was projected to be. Comes in dominates Summer League (not that that means anything)... but then gets placed back under Woody's thumb playing 4 minutes here, 5 minutes there...

It's not all Woods fault.. but damn... what's keeping him from getting PT in the NBA?

[Admin]

You're right, it's not even close to debatable, which is why I won't bother responding with anymore than this.

[Diesel]

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I know people are upset that we didn't get Roy but in all likelihood Roy wouldn't be nearly the player with us that he is now because he isn't an effective PG and he would have only taken minutes away from JJ or forced JJ to play the point, which he shouldn't be doing. So we would be stuck with having Roy back JJ up and that team would not be as good as the team with Bibby on it.

What?!

Why is this logic valid... both JJ and Roy can play THREE positions... how would it be difficult AT ALL to get them minutes... If anything Roy would at least be able to give JJ some rest minutes so that he doesn't admittedly get tired and hoist up threes at key moments of the game.

It would be the easiest thing in the world to get each of them 36 minutes a game or even 38... If anything Chill's and Marvin's minutes would go down with JJ playing a lot more SF (which is in all honesty probably his natural position right now). Getting Roy would make either of those expandable and our flexibility for trades would be IMENNSE.

Having a core of Roy - SG, JJ - SF, JS - PF, HORF - C, and having BOTH Chilldress and Marvin as bargaining chips to get a PG??? We would be in an infinitely better position than we are now.. It's not even close to debatable.

Alcoholic you fell for the lie too.

You actually believe that JJ can play the 1.

That was a lie you were sold to justify us getting JJ when we had up and coming SGs.

JJ can't play the 1.

After 1 week of trying to play the 1, he quit.

Roy is JJ all over again.

He can make passes, but he's not a 1.

Roy does best when Jack or Blake or Sergio is on the floor with him.

[Traceman]

If Shelden was even 6'10", I have no doubt he would be a solid NBA player but he is just not athletic enough to overcome his lack of size.

As for Roy, players that good are going to find their way on the court and they are going to be productive. Even if he couldn't play PG, JJ can certainly play SF and did so quite a bit in PHO. At that point, Marv or Chillz would have become expendable.

[Atlantaholic]

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To say Horford was a similar gamble is not only ridiculous, but flat out disingenuous.

The problem is that taking Horford was indeed the same gamble.

Horford is 6'8 - 6'9 too.

Horford dominated college by his strength and athleticism.

Horford hasn't looked that good against Big Centers either.

The difference is Horf is a much better athlete AND Woody hasn't been so quick to pull the cord on Horf.

Hell, Horf has been allowed to play through mistakes. Shelden never had that luxury.

Look at it. Shelden finish off last season averaging a double double... being the bruiser he was projected to be. Comes in dominates Summer League (not that that means anything)... but then gets placed back under Woody's thumb playing 4 minutes here, 5 minutes there...

It's not all Woods fault.. but damn... what's keeping him from getting PT in the NBA?

Why can't he sniff playing time in Sacramento??

He averaged a double double at the end of the season when we were playing for a lottery pick and every team looked passed us when they saw our game on the schedule... Most of those games had the feel of a scrimmage.