Playoffs or Not Woodson must go. Here's Why...

[khaos7]

The Acie Law I saw and wanted in college (and even in training camp) to be the Hawks PG of the future was assertive and wasn't scared to take the big shot...now he's a timid guy who has got more DNP's than minutes in the past few games.

The Salim I knew was a hot head in college. Yet, he was ultra competitive and he truly was a lights out shooter. Since Woody put his hands on him, he has no fire in his eyes. People rag on him for coming into the game and jacking up 3's and missing. But part of being a good shooter is rhythm. You can't pick up rhythm if you play 15 minutes one game, sit out the next 6, and then you are asked to play meaningful minutes two weeks later.

Why can't Solomon Jones develop into an Anderson Varejeo type player?

Who's to say Duck (who I've bashed unapologetically) isn't going to live up to his expectations? When was the last time Woody drew up a play for him?

Why don't we have an inside out game with Horford, who has shown the capability to mix it up in the paint?

Other misc. thoughts: Has Bibby truly been given the reigns to run this team? I see Joe still be the main facilitator, bouncing the ball up court. Yes, Josh hoist up 3's. But who draws up the plays to place him behind the arc anyway? Why isn't he used in the post more? And a few people get on Joe about disappearing in games. That type stuff happens when you play tons of minutes all year.

I'm stating the obvious. However, there should be absolutely no way that Woodson returns next year. I used to say Billy was the biggest problem in this organization (ownership excluded). Now, I have doubts. As much as I crap on Billy for his draft mistakes, the roster he has given Woody should perform better than it has, IMHO. I can't help but think another coach could get much more out of this team.

In addition, we all wonder what Chris Paul would do in a Hawks uni. With Woodson as the coach, there are no guarentees.

He must go, as soon as the Hawks season is declared over. The madness must stop.

[JackB1]

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The Acie Law I saw and wanted in college (and even in training camp) to be the Hawks PG of the future was assertive and wasn't scared to take the big shot...now he's a timid guy who has got more DNP's than minutes in the past few games.

The Salim I knew was a hot head in college. Yet, he was ultra competitive and he truly was a lights out shooter. Since Woody put his hands on him, he has no fire in his eyes. People rag on him for coming into the game and jacking up 3's and missing. But part of being a good shooter is rhythm. You can't pick up rhythm if you play 15 minutes one game, sit out the next 6, and then you are asked to play meaningful minutes two weeks later.

Why can't Solomon Jones develop into an Anderson Varejeo type player?

Who's to say Duck (who I've bashed unapologetically) isn't going to live up to his expectations? When was the last time Woody drew up a play for him?

Why don't we have an inside out game with Horford, who has shown the capability to mix it up in the paint?

Other misc. thoughts: Has Bibby truly been given the reigns to run this team? I see Joe still be the main facilitator, bouncing the ball up court. Yes, Josh hoist up 3's. But who draws up the plays to place him behind the arc anyway? Why isn't he used in the post more? And a few people get on Joe about disappearing in games. That type stuff happens when you play tons of minutes all year.

I'm stating the obvious. However, there should be absolutely no way that Woodson returns next year. I used to say Billy was the biggest problem in this organization (ownership excluded). Now, I have doubts. As much as I crap on Billy for his draft mistakes, the roster he has given Woody should perform better than it has, IMHO. I can't help but think another coach could get much more out of this team.

In addition, we all wonder what Chris Paul would do in a Hawks uni. With Woodson as the coach, there are no guarentees.

He must go, as soon as the Hawks season is declared over. The madness must stop.

I totally agree Woodson must go. He doesn't know coaching basics and the Hawks always must win inspite of his ineptitude. I almost shudder to think about what blunders he will pull in the playoffs vs Boston.

[Admin]

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He doesn't know coaching basics

Which basics does he not know? Other than poor substitution patterns I would really like to know what other coaching basics he doesn't know.

I have seen this team play lock down defense.

I have seen this team play half court offense.

I have seen this team play up tempo offense.

Since the Bibby trade our offense is one of the best in the game. During the first half of the season when our players were fresh and we had some depth we had one of the best defenses as well.

So why does Woody not get credit for either of those two VERY NON-BASIC facets of the game?

[khaos7]

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He doesn't know coaching basics

Which basics does he not know? Other than poor substitution patterns I would really like to know what other coaching basics he doesn't know.

I have seen this team play lock down defense.

I have seen this team play half court offense.

I have seen this team play up tempo offense.

Since the Bibby trade our offense is one of the best in the game. During the first half of the season when our players were fresh and we had some depth we had one of the best defenses as well.

So why does Woody not get credit for either of those two VERY NON-BASIC facets of the game?

Is the Hawks' offensive resurgence a product of Woodson's X's and O's or the saavy that Mike Bibby brings to the table? I believe it's more Bibby than Woody. Granted, Anthony Johnson ain't the second coming of Isaiah Thomas. However, they guy has played on playoff teams...meaningful minutes. So he knows basic offensive sets. I believe has more to do with Bibby than Woody.

[Admin]

Oh I definitely believe it has a lot to do with Bibby. I believe that for the first time since the Mookie era we finally have a legit NBA caliber PG (JT was a SG in a PGs body) to even run an offense with. Yes a lot of the things that we do are products of Bibby making plays but a lot of it also has to do with us finally having someone to run the offense.

[khaos7]

Man, I want Jeff Van Gundy. I really believe he could do something with this squad. I would say Larry Brown, but he'd be gone after one year.

[Admin]

I would love for us to have Van Gundy, as long as he didn't try and grind our offense to a halt. I really wish we could have gotten his brother or Adelman but Woody deserved another year with this squad. If we can replace him with a proven NBA coach then I think we should do it, but I don't think we should fire him just to fire him.

[swolehawk2]

What hurt Woodson, is that he came from a vet team that could handle harsh criticism and ebb and flow of a season. He can't coach this team the same way. I have read where it has been said that he is too negative. This just won't work with young players; you have to coach and correct young players so that you don't hurt confidence.

He is not a leader, plain and simple.

I said it then and say it now, he should have been gone two years ago., when we lost to New Orleans' D league players.

[khaos7]

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I would love for us to have Van Gundy, as long as he didn't try and grind our offense to a halt. I really wish we could have gotten his brother or Adelman but Woody deserved another year with this squad. If we can replace him with a proven NBA coach then I think we should do it, but I don't think we should fire him just to fire him.

Adelman would have been perfect. I've got a strange feeling some stuff has been going on behind the scenes with Larry Brown. I know Woody was a part of his coaching staff. But, do you really think Larry is loyal to anybody. He's been seen at games (I know his brother is part of the staff). But, is it out the realm of possibility Herb says, "hey bro, I see this team everyday and Mike doesn't know what the h**l he's doing. If you had this team, you could..."

[Admin]

I'll tell ya, I don't know anything about Herb other than he is one of our coaches but he just looks like a guy that doesn't have a clue so to me it would be shocking to hear him say something like that.

I would only be an advocate of hiring Larry Brown as the coach if he guaranteed he would be here at least 3 years. The last thing we need is for him to come in for a season and then jet on us. There is a lot to be said for continuity.

[Plainview1981]

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Since the Bibby trade our offense is one of the best in the game. During the first half of the season when our players were fresh and we had some depth we had one of the best defenses as well.

I'm sorry. At what time was Shelden and Lo giving the team anything the first half of the season? Lo played Howard very well, but I can't remember anything else. Howard didn't really go off in the Hawks last meeting with the Hawks either.

Lo only played in 13 games the first half of the season and averaged 1PPG 2RPG on 29% shooting in the games he played in. Shelden averaged 3PPG 3RPG. ZaZa has been giving the Hawks that much since then. These guys barely even played.

[cowa]

The latest I read this weekend was that assuming the Hawks clean house of Woody and BK, then BK would join the interview process with the Knicks (he's a former Walsh guy) and that we would have Scott Skiles at the top of our head coaching list.

I am not a Skiles fan, as I think he is too hard on his players (works better with a veteran team).

[khaos7]

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I'll tell ya, I don't know anything about Herb other than he is one of our coaches but he just looks like a guy that doesn't have a clue so to me it would be shocking to hear him say something like that.

I would only be an advocate of hiring Larry Brown as the coach if he guaranteed he would be here at least 3 years. The last thing we need is for him to come in for a season and then jet on us. There is a lot to be said for continuity.

I wouldn't touch Brown with a ten foot pole. Anyone who would leave an AWESOME situation like Detroit's can't be trusted. That said, I believe it's a foregone conclusion; Woody is gone.

[foeteen14]

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The Acie Law I saw and wanted in college (and even in training camp) to be the Hawks PG of the future was assertive and wasn't scared to take the big shot...now he's a timid guy who has got more DNP's than minutes in the past few games.

The Salim I knew was a hot head in college. Yet, he was ultra competitive and he truly was a lights out shooter. Since Woody put his hands on him, he has no fire in his eyes. People rag on him for coming into the game and jacking up 3's and missing. But part of being a good shooter is rhythm. You can't pick up rhythm if you play 15 minutes one game, sit out the next 6, and then you are asked to play meaningful minutes two weeks later.

Why can't Solomon Jones develop into an Anderson Varejeo type player?

Who's to say Duck (who I've bashed unapologetically) isn't going to live up to his expectations? When was the last time Woody drew up a play for him?

Why don't we have an inside out game with Horford, who has shown the capability to mix it up in the paint?

Other misc. thoughts: Has Bibby truly been given the reigns to run this team? I see Joe still be the main facilitator, bouncing the ball up court. Yes, Josh hoist up 3's. But who draws up the plays to place him behind the arc anyway? Why isn't he used in the post more? And a few people get on Joe about disappearing in games. That type stuff happens when you play tons of minutes all year.

I'm stating the obvious. However, there should be absolutely no way that Woodson returns next year. I used to say Billy was the biggest problem in this organization (ownership excluded). Now, I have doubts. As much as I crap on Billy for his draft mistakes, the roster he has given Woody should perform better than it has, IMHO. I can't help but think another coach could get much more out of this team.

In addition, we all wonder what Chris Paul would do in a Hawks uni. With Woodson as the coach, there are no guarentees.

He must go, as soon as the Hawks season is declared over. The madness must stop.

i'm really sick of this acie, salim, jones, west, or whoever else mess.

acie is a questionable talent, he wasn't the consensus "best point guard" coming out of college. he's a rookie playing playing point guard and we're in a playoff chase, they just don't go well together. he is no cp3 or dwill, acie may or may not pan out. i felt that way about him in college he's done nothing to change my thoughts about him.

salim may just not be nba talent. just because you can shoot in college doesn't mean u succeed in the nba, ask jj reddick or shawn respert. there is more to it, u have to have a mind set that "i'm going make it no matter what or who holds me down (or be very tall)" some players have this mentality, some don't. those that don't get weeded out after 4 years. we knew salim had attitude problems in college, and he's done nothing to change my thoughts about him. btw salim was drafted in the 2nd round for a reason.

solomon jones? come on guys, i want him to succeed, i really do, but the likelihood is so low (no pun intended) that he becomes a viable nba player, that i don't even think about him. he needs two years of playing time with lesser talent than the nba, along with two years of weight training and strength conditioning. he needs to develop sooo much in his game that its unfair to everyone, woody, solo, and his teammates. remember we're chasing the playoffs, have been all season. btw solo was drafted in the 2nd round for a reason.

west, etc. we all love his hustle, and yes, he played at gt, but this is the nba. i have basketball skills, and when i played i hustled and that's why i was as successful as i was on the court, but i don't think i should be in the nba. i know people who are better b-ball players than mario west, and they are not going to be in the nba. west is a dime a dozen 15th man in the nba. you could go to any d-1 or d-2 school and find him. btw he was undrafted for a reason.

you say woody destroys players, what about the joshes, marvin, al, they seemed to have done pretty well under woody. woodson just doesn't take B.S., or laziness from his players. if you don't come to play, woodson is not going to play you, isn't that right boris and sheldon. woodson has done his job, whether or not he has what it takes to take us to the next level, i don't know, but he has done his job. our players that were willing to work to get better have done so, and those that were not, were sent packing or ride the bench. the hawks record has gotten better every season, and we finally have a chance to be in the playoffs, woody is doing his job. if u get fired for doing worse or not getting better thats one thing, but to make things better and get fired is just stupid. sorry so long. had to get it off my chest

effjee

[Admin]

and Stuart Scott says "can I get an amen from the congregation"

[Guest Walter]

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I'll tell ya, I don't know anything about Herb other than he is one of our coaches but he just looks like a guy that doesn't have a clue

...and you defend Woodson when his looks CONFIRM he doesn't have a clue.

Where's the Woody looks lost again icon (right next to the Lenny Wilkens arms folded icon)?

W

[AHF]

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you say woody destroys players, what about the joshes, marvin, al, they seemed to have done pretty well under woody.

Here are my thoughts on our lottery picks plus Josh Smith and Boris Diaw:

Al has done well since his first day on the Court. He is not featured in any way by our scheme but he is mature enough to step in right away and impact the game on both ends of the floor without plays being run for him. Woodson has been smart enough to consistently play him over Zaza. Kudos for that decision. I put Horford in the mild success category. The next step in his development and his incorporation in the offense is critical but we won't be able to judge Woodson on that this year.

Childress hasn't developed much at all. He has not been destroyed or really developed by Woodson.

Boris Diaw was clearly misused as a PG by Woodson. He is not nearly the player he was his first year in Phoenix, but he is clearly more of a player than he showed when he was in Atlanta. This goes in the abject failure pile. (As a non-lottery pick, I wouldn't address him, but it is clear he has the talent to be a productive NBA player when used/developed properly.)

Marvin's development can't be described as anything other than a dissappointment. For a guy whose primary value is scoring the ball, his role in the offense is a problem - it is totally secondary and feeds his passive behavior on the floor. In terms of his tanglibles, his #s have not changed since he came in the league very much other than mpg. His on the ball defense has improved. He hasn't been destroyed by Woodson - just not developed very much.

Josh Smith has been the one play who dramatically improved since he came into the league. I have major problems with Woodson failing to get him to stop shooting 3s, though. I can't imagine why he would ever be set up on the floor outside the 3 point line but we seem him there a lot. I don't understand why a hard line has not been made to discipline Josh's shot selection but there has been at least some improvement each season after Josh figures out that he shouldn't be shooting as many 3s.

Acie Law's development has been ugly. It is too early in his career (or Horford's) to make too much of a judgment and he has struggled with some injuries but this season isn't a success.

Shelden Williams looked like a quality rotation guy at times but he gave this team less than someone like Chuck Hayes. His development is an abject failure. Given his play in Sacto, however, this may be on BK for drafting a stiff. Definitely not an example of Woodson coaching someone up, though.

Overall, the development of our lottery picks + Josh Smith/Diaw has not been impressive to me. Saying Woodson destroyed these guys is going too far. However, if I was looking at the development of the young players on my team and needed a coach to get them to the next level, I would not rush to hire Woodson based on this track record.

(This post is limited to development of lottery picks + JS/Diaw. Our later picks like Salim, Solomon, etc. are too much of a crap shoot to comment on.)

[TheTruth]

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i'm really sick of this acie, salim, jones, west, or whoever else mess.

acie is a questionable talent, he wasn't the consensus "best point guard" coming out of college. he's a rookie playing playing point guard and we're in a playoff chase, they just don't go well together. he is no cp3 or dwill, acie may or may not pan out. i felt that way about him in college he's done nothing to change my thoughts about him.

salim may just not be nba talent. just because you can shoot in college doesn't mean u succeed in the nba, ask jj reddick or shawn respert. there is more to it, u have to have a mind set that "i'm going make it no matter what or who holds me down (or be very tall)" some players have this mentality, some don't. those that don't get weeded out after 4 years. we knew salim had attitude problems in college, and he's done nothing to change my thoughts about him. btw salim was drafted in the 2nd round for a reason.

solomon jones? come on guys, i want him to succeed, i really do, but the likelihood is so low (no pun intended) that he becomes a viable nba player, that i don't even think about him. he needs two years of playing time with lesser talent than the nba, along with two years of weight training and strength conditioning. he needs to develop sooo much in his game that its unfair to everyone, woody, solo, and his teammates. remember we're chasing the playoffs, have been all season. btw solo was drafted in the 2nd round for a reason.

west, etc. we all love his hustle, and yes, he played at gt, but this is the nba. i have basketball skills, and when i played i hustled and that's why i was as successful as i was on the court, but i don't think i should be in the nba. i know people who are better b-ball players than mario west, and they are not going to be in the nba. west is a dime a dozen 15th man in the nba. you could go to any d-1 or d-2 school and find him. btw he was undrafted for a reason.

you say woody destroys players, what about the joshes, marvin, al, they seemed to have done pretty well under woody. woodson just doesn't take B.S., or laziness from his players. if you don't come to play, woodson is not going to play you, isn't that right boris and sheldon. woodson has done his job, whether or not he has what it takes to take us to the next level, i don't know, but he has done his job. our players that were willing to work to get better have done so, and those that were not, were sent packing or ride the bench. the hawks record has gotten better every season, and we finally have a chance to be in the playoffs, woody is doing his job. if u get fired for doing worse or not getting better thats one thing, but to make things better and get fired is just stupid. sorry so long. had to get it off my chest

effjee

Oh my, looks like I will have to use simple language on this one. You do make some great points, but they are a bit misguided. Here goes...

1. I don't care what you say, Acie should not be neglected like he is. When it comes time to ship Bibby off next year, at this rate, our "PG of the future," STILL won't be ready to take the reigns. Sure he is timid...he has been all year. However, Woody has made no bones about yanking him out after one or two mistakes...yet leaves others in there to repeatedly make them until he is forced to (like Zaza even when Horfy is ready to go back in). I am not saying Acie should be given 20 mins per game, but he needs to see the floor for 5-10 each night to spell Bibby. He may be inconsistent, but he is a rookie. Even Conley has been wildly inconsistent (especially lately). Pauls and DWills are the exception, not the rule.

2. Eh, Salim has been mismanaged his whole stint here. Trying to make him play PG is just plain stupid. Yeah, he chucks alot. That does not excuse Woodson for not utilizing him better earlier on in his career.

3. Who is calling for, or expecting, Solomon Jones to be a starter now or in the future? Please, if Woodson was just going to let him rot on the bench, he should have shipped him off to the D League years ago. Furthermore, Solo should be in there during garbage time when we are getting blown out. Hell, they won't even play him then. If anything, it keeps Pachulia off the floor during meaningless minutes.

4. I never had a love affair for West and I dont understand why some do. At any rate, I would like to see him come in during the end of quarters to spell JJ or somebody for like 3-5 mins a game. I agree, he wont give you much else, but he does play good defense. It's not like he will be with us much longer.

Yeah, I give Woodson credit for SOME of Smoove's progress (a lot of it is due to him working out on his own volition with NBA legends), and Al, and some progress with Marvin (although he should be developing a 3 and other things)...but don't cite that and ignore his inability to utilize other talent on the team--even if that talent isn't that good. As a coach, your job to maximize the talent you have, and if not much is there, use it in ways to better the team. No one, with half a brain, can tell me that with what Solo, Acie, J Rich et al. can bring to the table, that they should not see minutes in even garbage time. Period.

I'm no Woodson hater, I just call things as I see them. Don't ever get confused. I wish more would see things as they are instead of blindly supporting, hating, or defending someone or a player.

[Admin]

Woody does look clueless and confused on the sidelines. Just like with Herb, that doesn't mean that he is, it's just the impression that he gives off.

[yardbird]

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and Stuart Scott says "can I get an amen from the congregation"

amen.