Woodson stays...how would you address the offense?

[hussamga]

As the title suggest, presuming woodson will sign a 2yr deal or so...what slight changes to the roster and offensive changes would you implement? Assume we can resign the josh's and have the MLE around $6m to use.

Im thinking, by keeping our core...we play to our strengths shown in the boston series, running off misses, opportunistic fast breaks off blocks etc. Same starting 5 obviously...this leaves us with the predicament of slow half court battles with celtics/pistons...

The truth is i dont think any MLE signing will displace a starter (outside of injury)...the best signing we could make is for a James Jones type player. Use him to run off the baseline screens ala Ray allen etc. Sure Joe can do this and we run this for him sometimes, but i think having a player other than joe running wild will cause alot of matchup problems for our second unit. Should be able to find more cutters and relieve more pressure off Joe. I think woody would have to develop a solid 2nd rotation/substitution pattern....like Pachulia/Marvin/Joe/Shooter/Bibby.

If marvin could develop a little post game this could work. He just needs to accept the entry pass, develop the faceup jumper with a hand in his face (something i havent seen yet) up to 16ft or so and/or draw help defense. You got bibby/joe/shooter spotting up. Pachulia also in post, working weakside rebound, picks for shooters or the 10foot jumper. A big problem is we dont have any forwards who can hit the 16-18ft shot off a pick n roll. Just about every playoff team has one...West for NO, Garnett BOS, Wallace DET, etc etc.. Sure, Smith can play this role...but i think currently Marvin is closer skill wise to filling this role than Smith (i think hes 2yrs away from his jumper hitting at a decent clip, heck horford is closer imo).

The use of Josh Smith effectively within a slow halfcourt game is probably our biggest challenge. The worst play/offensive sets of the year has been the Josh setting picks out at the 3pt line...leaving him with the ball (about 10x a fricken game) 18+ ft from the basket with under 10secs to shoot. Its ridiculous how we consistently put ourselves in a low percentage situation. Teams leave him open and expect the drive...lining bodies up for the charge. Not to mention the double teaming of the ballhandler forcing turnovers as well. So how do we use Smoove? You cant deny his BBIQ on offense has been bad...this is why you gotta put him in situations that are somewhat scripted. The more creative he tries to be the more the defense makes him look bad. He needs a bread and butter post game, nothing fancy. 1-2 pivot hooks, foul line jumpers, one dribble floaters...etc. Pick n Rolls ala Tyson Chandler (starting around foul line), etc. He is semi effective with the dribble drive...really depends how much space is available and where the help is coming from, because his first step is fast and hes quick, but his handles stink in traffic. 4-6pts in the post + 4pts on dribble drives + 4 pts on fastbreak opportunities and the 4 or so on ft makes...thats a good 16-18pts on high % shots.

Alot of people want a defensive C like Diop..but coming off the bench...i am not sold on how more effective that would be then adding a non undersized shooter. Just develop Solomon into such a role.

Just seeing all the Head Coach and GM threads made me want to write/read bout something else..and i understand all those threads are what make the forums fun...speculation.

[TruJerz]

we should have the mentality of the pheonix suns. We can be the "Suns of the East!" we get a rebound, outlet to Bibby and then run run run!!! push the ball up the court and go to the basket. We should sign PF Swift who can run and jump similar to Josh Smith and maybe get a shooter or 2 so like Phoenix we can be a threat from behind the arc. The defense will have to be a team effort and every has to crash the boards. We can be a force to reckon with if we establish this style of play...we can be a top 5 team in the East too!!!!

[hussamga]

A good running lineup /rotation off our first set of subs (childress for marvin, acie for bibby, and possibly jones for horford/smith if they are in foul trouble)

Acie

Childress

Johnson

Smith(jones)

Horford

Would be a great attacking lineup ... very flexible with 3 bench players in the game. Funny thing is how the hawks at home in the playoffs played exactly how i play them in nba2k7 or 2k8....running around blocking shots from weakside and using joe as the playmaker exclusively in halfcourt sets hah.

[DJlaysitup]

If the ASG is stupid enough to keep Woody for another 2-3 years I will totally give up on this franchise.

Any fool can see that we won 3 games against Boston when our guys were motivated by national TV...THREE AGAINST BOSTON...and our regular season was 37-45. Nice motivation Woodster...fire the fool....ooops...we don't have to fire him....contract is up....

[frosgrim]

The addition of David Andersen handles several of the ideas you suggest. Andersen is a 6'11" Euro-style big. Not much in terms of pure post game, but excellent in high pick and rolls. He should help but not be anything close to the tonic that the team needs.

In terms of adding another piece, we need a guy in the mold of Mikel Pietrus/Sefalousha/Jarvis Hayes or maybe a Rasul Butler. Somebody who can hit an outside shot without winding up, ala Childress, and can drive the baseline. I also love to see the Hawks try to get Sundiata Gaines in a trade for a 1st round pick. Gaines offers the mentality that this team lacks- toughness and refusal to surrender no matter the odds. The games in Boston demonstrated that the Hawks need to toughen up some. Experience will provide a lot of that toughening, but another battle-tested guy would really help.

[hussamga]

Well i see Gaines as more of a playmaker, ala wade/roy (not as talented, but style wise). Billy Humphries seemed more of the shooter...but waiting for a shooter to develop as a rookie would be too frustrating for most of us (Carney/salim and tons of other players).

[AHF]

I would first address the offense in terms of coaching by hiring a top assistant who could take command of our offense and would be ready to step in as head coach if we decided to promote from within.

[Diesel]

Quote:

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I would first address the offense in terms of coaching by hiring a top assistant who could take command of our offense and would be ready to step in as head coach if we decided to promote from within.

I agree here... here's my short list in order.

1. Alvin Gentry

2. Terry Porter

3. Bob Hill

4. Brian Hill.

[coachx]

Quote:

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I also love to see the Hawks try to get Sundiata Gaines in a trade for a 1st round pick. Gaines offers the mentality that this team lacks- toughness and refusal to surrender no matter the odds. The games in Boston demonstrated that the Hawks need to toughen up some. Experience will provide a lot of that toughening, but another battle-tested guy would really help.

I like Gaines too. He competes like crazy and has all around skills. Is good at alot of thing but not great at any.....well his strength is close to great for a 6'0'' player.

He will not be a 1st round pick. He could go undrafted.

Would love for him to be invited to camp to compete for the 3rd PG spot.

[diamond_dave]

I would address the offense .....by actually installing an offense.

Sorry, I do believe Woody runs a typical flex offense that quite a few teams run, but the players don't understand or are too uncoachable for the system to work. I agree that maybe we need a 'teacher' type of coach to help Woody out.

[GST]

See my sig...

[Watchman]

Are you referring to the offense of Woodson staying or the so-called offense that the team employs?

[bronnt]

Quote:

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As the title suggest, presuming woodson will sign a 2yr deal or so...what slight changes to the roster and offensive changes would you implement? Assume we can resign the josh's and have the MLE around $6m to use.

Im thinking, by keeping our core...we play to our strengths shown in the boston series, running off misses, opportunistic fast breaks off blocks etc. Same starting 5 obviously...this leaves us with the predicament of slow half court battles with celtics/pistons...

The truth is i dont think any MLE signing will displace a starter (outside of injury)...the best signing we could make is for a James Jones type player. Use him to run off the baseline screens ala Ray allen etc. Sure Joe can do this and we run this for him sometimes, but i think having a player other than joe running wild will cause alot of matchup problems for our second unit. Should be able to find more cutters and relieve more pressure off Joe. I think woody would have to develop a solid 2nd rotation/substitution pattern....like Pachulia/Marvin/Joe/Shooter/Bibby.

If marvin could develop a little post game this could work. He just needs to accept the entry pass, develop the faceup jumper with a hand in his face (something i havent seen yet) up to 16ft or so and/or draw help defense. You got bibby/joe/shooter spotting up. Pachulia also in post, working weakside rebound, picks for shooters or the 10foot jumper. A big problem is we dont have any forwards who can hit the 16-18ft shot off a pick n roll. Just about every playoff team has one...West for NO, Garnett BOS, Wallace DET, etc etc.. Sure, Smith can play this role...but i think currently Marvin is closer skill wise to filling this role than Smith (i think hes 2yrs away from his jumper hitting at a decent clip, heck horford is closer imo).

The use of Josh Smith effectively within a slow halfcourt game is probably our biggest challenge. The worst play/offensive sets of the year has been the Josh setting picks out at the 3pt line...leaving him with the ball (about 10x a fricken game) 18+ ft from the basket with under 10secs to shoot. Its ridiculous how we consistently put ourselves in a low percentage situation. Teams leave him open and expect the drive...lining bodies up for the charge. Not to mention the double teaming of the ballhandler forcing turnovers as well. So how do we use Smoove? You cant deny his BBIQ on offense has been bad...this is why you gotta put him in situations that are somewhat scripted. The more creative he tries to be the more the defense makes him look bad. He needs a bread and butter post game, nothing fancy. 1-2 pivot hooks, foul line jumpers, one dribble floaters...etc. Pick n Rolls ala Tyson Chandler (starting around foul line), etc. He is semi effective with the dribble drive...really depends how much space is available and where the help is coming from, because his first step is fast and hes quick, but his handles stink in traffic. 4-6pts in the post + 4pts on dribble drives + 4 pts on fastbreak opportunities and the 4 or so on ft makes...thats a good 16-18pts on high % shots.

Alot of people want a defensive C like Diop..but coming off the bench...i am not sold on how more effective that would be then adding a non undersized shooter. Just develop Solomon into such a role.

Just seeing all the Head Coach and GM threads made me want to write/read bout something else..and i understand all those threads are what make the forums fun...speculation.

A lot to respond to here, and let me try to address a nice post with well throught-out response.

First of all, we do need to keep this same core of top 6 players around. I'm really hoping it doesn't come down to us having to decide between the Josh's. Losing either one at this point would be quite a blow since we've finally gotten them developed to the point that we have an idea how to use them. Not that Woodson shows any evidence of figuring it out.

As for Bibby, I have to believe that he reinjured his hand at some point. His shot was falling so well for us from the time we got up until those back-to-back contests with Philly at the start of April. From there, including the playoffs, his shot was off, and even ugly at times. He's not a good defensive player, but when he's on, he gives us a perimeter scoring threat that we badly need. And he does a good job running the offense when he's not looking for his own shot.

A MLE player we could get is David Andersen. James Jones is a good player, but I don't know if Woody would have any clue what to do with a guy like that. Look at Salim rotting on the bench. Andersen is a versatile player, and he's been playing professional basketball enough to not need much seasoning. We could use a long guy who can shoot on all kinds of pick-and-roll or pick-and-pop plays at the top of the key. And if he can slip outside and draw his man out to cover him on the perimeter, it opens the defense in the middle more for Smoove and JJ to drive. So perhaps out offense wouldn't be quite as stagnant against a team like Boston. And it would really help if Bibby found his shot, also.

I don't have much hope for Marvin developing a post game. This is a bit disappointing because he was really just playing in the post at UNC and using his athleticism to beat the defense. I've seen Woody actually run post isolations for Marvin, but he can't get any advantage against a bigger defender. His best tool remains the shot fake. Perhaps he could develop a turn-around jumper that he can hit reliaibly on the baseline to force a man off his feet, but that's as far as I see him going. Right now, he doesn't have any go-to moves. He wasn't strong enough to establish position, and he hasn't gotten much stronger. He gets pushed around, and he really doesn't handle the ball as well with his back to the basket. These are situations where he ends up letting the ball get batted out of bounds or dribbles off his foot. Ideally, he'll be a consistent catch and shoot threat on that mid range J, and maybe he'll improve his body/ball control when driving into the lane. All I want from him in the offense is to be able to make the defense pay for leaving him wide open when they double JJ.

I agree with you almost entirely on Josh Smith. He does not need to be on the perimeter with the ball in his hand and the shot clock winding down. We have so few positive things to do with the ball in those situations. It's funny that Woodson runs post isolations for Marvin but very seldom for Smith. He needs to be put into offensive circumstances that limit his threshold for negative plays on offense. I remember when he had no post game, but he actually does a fair job now at scoring down low. He has a decent hook shot, he does a good job with the head fake, and he's quick enough to work around guys. He has good body control to make layups when there's contact, and he's strong and athletic enough to dunk on anyone who gives him an inch too much room. And he has a nice touch on little floaters-not as good as JJ, but decent. He needs to spend less time on the perimeter on offense, and spend more time getting position down low. And in those situations when he does have the ball at the top of the key, he needs to make better decisions. I saw situations where he squared up for the jumper and KG actually RAN out to get a hand in his face...stupid of KG since JSmith is a poor jumpshooter. He could have blown straight past KG for an easy layup in that situation. You're right about his skillset, he can really move on the dribble drive if the defense leaves him a crease. Like Marvin, his outside game should really be driven by JJ. If JJ gets extra attention on defense, you let JSmith drive in while the defense is more spread out.

I want to run more of the offense through Al horford, though. You've seen in a lot of games that he's a very good passer when he has it in his mind to be a playmaker. He has a high BBIQ, and knows how to pass out of the double team. He could have averaged something like 3.5 assists or so if we let him touch the ball on offense at least 30 plays a game. He gets good position and very seldom takes bad shots. He only really takes those 12 footers when he's WIDE open, and he hits for a higher percentage that Josh does. I like the way, though, that he works to get an offensive position and, if he can't, he usually recognizes where to pass the ball. And he's a pretty good ball handler for a center (even though he's more of a PF) we saw him run the fast break on occasions. Opposing defenses won't always respect him, but his offensive game grew as the season progressed. He plays well with his back to the basket, is strong, and he controls the ball well. Combine this with some pretty good floor vision as well as above average passing ability and he can create looks for shooters as well as Josh Smith on the baseline. He can't always get good position offensively just because he's being played out of position, but he has a few offensive moves and could score 20 points at least a few times over the course of a season.

As for getting Soloman...I don't really want to see Solo on the floor much more than he already is. If Zaza plays motivated and fundamental basketball, he does a fairly good job. He needs to make sure he blocks out on each shot attempt, and doesn't take too much time getting back on defense. He won't be a shut down defender, but Solo certainly is not that either. Zaza has the added benefit of NOT being a total non factor on offense. He's not a great offensive player but teams at least have to watch him. If we could bring in Andersen and work out a good frontcourt rotation, I'd feel better about the depth on the bench. I'm also curious of Jeremy Richardson could improve with more minutes. He's the "Not undersized shooter" you mentioned, if he actually became a dependable bench scorer, an dsomeone we had faith in off the bench. He was a big time scorer in NBADL, at least.

Forgive me for failing to really present my thoughts in a truly organize fashion.