NBA Fixing Games--WOW

[AHF]

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Before his trial the buzz was that this guy was going to sing and bring down a bunch of other refs with him. Turns out the other refs have been proven guilty of nothing other than going to casinos.

As far as the "company ref" allegations he has nothing other than he knows a guy who knows a guy who knew something. There is no evidence there that i can see.

If the ref told him, as he claims, that he was throwing the game then that could be admissible evidence as an admission against interest - an exception to the general hearsay rule.

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Before the trial fans were waiting for the other shoe to drop and expose the "crooked" referees. That shoe still hasn't dropped to the obviously enormous disappointment of the conspiracy theorists.

That is a matter of fan expectations. Some people probably feel this is the other shoe dropping. Obviously, you don't. Whatever the buzz was doesn't really matter.

Stern publically admits Donoughy made this allegation over a year ago so I don't see what there is to argue on that point.

[exodus]

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Stern publically admits Donoughy made this allegation over a year ago so I don't see what there is to argue on that point.

And in over a year no other ref has been charged with anything so his allegations seem to have fallen pretty flat.

Until another ref gets charged with something i won't see this as much more than just a conspiracy theory.

[AHF]

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Stern publically admits Donoughy made this allegation over a year ago so I don't see what there is to argue on that point.

And in over a year no other ref has been charged with anything so his allegations seem to have fallen pretty flat.

Until another ref gets charged with something i won't see this as much more than just a conspiracy theory.

The fact that no one has been charged in less than a year is not very shocking. Bonds only got formally charged very recently.

[exodus]

Let me ask you something.

He has obviously been singing from the beginning to try to get a lighter sentence. Given the sentence that he got do you think he was successful? In other words what kind of sentence do you think he would have gotten without trying to spill the beans on other refs?

[ATLBob]

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I think it is largely perception and the nature of the sport.

I can only IMAGINE how much we'd be hearing about the stern conspiracy if there was a spying / cheating scandal involving the top team and he had burned the tapes before anyone saw them.

But if it's the nfl, we move on. If it's the nba, any hint is hard proof of the evil empire's conspiracy.

I'm not sure what point you're attempting to make here, but it isn't working because this analogy fails disastrously.

Spygate stuck around forever. F O R E V E R. The league's darling team got caught taping an opponent's signals during a game. Media rehashes were incessant. Senator Specter got louder. No one "got over it." The topic was simply exhausted.

Donaghy alleges that top league administrators (not personnel for an individual team) ordered officials to favor one team over another in the Western Conference Finals, thereby picking a winner in advance.

An analogous situation wouldn't be claims that the Patriots may have filmed a pre-Super Bowl walkthrough. Instead, we would be facing the prospect of an NFL official alleging that the league ordered officials to throw the 2002 AFC Championship Game at Heinz field in favor of the Patriots, to the chagrin of the Steelers.

Shockwaves from the latter scenario would have easily created a messier situation for the NFL than Donaghy's allegations have for the NBA. This would stem partially from the NFL's superior popularity, but also has some roots in the notion that somehow no one is overly shocked at Donaghy's allegations. According to an ESPN online poll over 70% of voters believe that Donaghy's allegations hold some truth, despite the absence of any publicly-revealed evidence or corroboration.

These allegations, if they are proven even marginally true, are MUCH worse than Spygate, and were this the NFL, no one, and I promise you, NO ONE, would be moving on.

[EazyRoc]

What will be interesting is to see if this accusation will change the wall refs call games.

[Lascar78]

I think you're copletely missing the point, I never claimed it was the same situation.

Spygate has been around for a while, but with very little exception the heat has been on the pats, not on the nfl. With the exception of specter roasting the nfl and the talking heads discussing it for a few days, the league and the commish got off clean with no problems. 99% of the bashing has been towards the pats.

If that exact same scenario had played out in the nba, there would have been NEVER ENDING BITCHING about how the league had clearly destroyed evidence to protect its dynasty and that destroying the tapes was hard evidence of their conspiracy and favoritism. That would have been the smoking gun proving how crooked stern is.

Yes I am aware that what donaghy is accusing the nba of is far worse than spygate, but since there is zero evidence other than a rat trying to save his ass, it's irrelevant.

The nfl has been 100% forgiven for spygate, and if stern had handled that scenario in that manner, he'd be endlessly crucified for it. That was my point.

[sturt]

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The nfl has been 100% forgiven for spygate, and if stern had handled that scenario in that manner, he'd be endlessly crucified for it. That was my point.

Ahem...

Why should the NFL be "forgiven" for spygate? The Patriots organization is the entity in need of forgiveness.

And if that's not relevant to your point, why did you find it relevant to make the statement?

Stern would be endlessly crucified for a spygate situation if there were reason to believe that his administration had somehow looked the other way... true. So, would you allege that if Goodell wouldn't be "endlessly crucified" if there were allegations that his administration had looked the other way?

If that's the case, Lascar, that's delusional... and then there's not much point in continuing any dialogue with someone so intensely determined to champion the defense of David Stern regardless of the circumstances.

[ATLBob]

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The nfl has been 100% forgiven for spygate, and if stern had handled that scenario in that manner, he'd be endlessly crucified for it. That was my point.

Fair enough. I disagree pretty strongly. I think Spygate would have disappeared more quickly had it happened in the NBA, and no, Goodell hasn't been forgiven, it's cast a shadow on his otherwise squeeky clean image.

Stern has only himself to blame for the fans' distaste.

But we can disagree peaceably.

[Lascar78]

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Ahem...

Why should the NFL be "forgiven" for spygate?

Well for starters I don't think they should be. I think that the outrage in response to the nfl's handling of spygate is insufficient, and if Stern had done the same thing the response would be way excessive because he is held to a different standard.

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And if that's not relevant to your point, why did you find it relevant to make the statement?

It is very relevant. If you re-read I think you'll find that what is irrelevant is how despicable the NBA would be if donaghy were telling the truth since there is no rational reason to believe him. What is relevant is that the NFL got off pretty easy on an issue that would have been seen as proof of a horrible conspiracy by *The Tyrant* if Stern had responded the same way because Stern is scrutinized in a way that other commish's aren't.

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Stern would be endlessly crucified for a spygate situation if there were reason to believe that his administration had somehow looked the other way... true. So, would you allege that if Goodell wouldn't be "endlessly crucified" if there were allegations that his administration had looked the other way?

What?!? I don't have to allege anything, it actually happened. That's the whole point. The dynasty of the decade got flat out busted cheating, and the league literally burned every shred of evidence without letting anyone get a glimpse of it, and just slapped the team on the wrist.

[sturt]

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What?!? I don't have to allege anything, it actually happened. That's the whole point. The dynasty of the decade got flat out busted cheating, and the league literally burned every shred of evidence without letting anyone get a glimpse of it, and just slapped the team on the wrist.

Point better taken.

I was speaking in terms of allegations that the league knew about and allowed the Pats to continue to do their dirty deeds.

In the light you've presented, though, I see what you mean. Yes, Stern would be subject to twice the scrutiny. Of course, I'd also contend that Stern only has his own history of a lack of transparency to blame.

[AHF]

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Let me ask you something.

He has obviously been singing from the beginning to try to get a lighter sentence. Given the sentence that he got do you think he was successful? In other words what kind of sentence do you think he would have gotten without trying to spill the beans on other refs?

I don't think he has been sentenced yet. When he is sentenced I would say:

(a) If the FBI genuinely believes he has been honest and cooperative he will get a lighter sentence;

(b) if the FBI believes he has fed them lies to try to lighten his sentence he will at most be charged with another felony for lying to the FBI and at least get a worse sentence.

It is not a risk free game to make things up for Donoughy.

[AHF]

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My main thing is the fact that the star system is so known that it is not even funny. A foul should be a foul whether its Kobe Bryant or Zaza Pachulia. Who is the NBA to say that one players desire to win is more important than another. It is messed up and the need to have stars instead of promoting the game is what is killing them. I haven't watched one game of the finals but I can bet that they are killing the Lakers vs. Celtics 80's rivalry.

To me that is what makes this such a public relations nightmare for the league. How hard is it to go from a system where the NBA gives favoritism in calls to its stars in order to promote its most marketable players and make more money to a step farther where the system favoritism to its most marketable teams or at least the teams with the most marketable players in order to make more money?

I think it is a given that the NBA favors its stars in the way games are called. The rationale behind that isn't much different from promoting teams as Donoughy alleges.

(Note: The star system may or may not be dictated from the league office but it is so obvious that even if the league has never said anything, it hasn't done anything credible to address the issue and is at least guilty of willifully failing to enforce its rules on the star issue.)

[exodus]

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Let me ask you something.

He has obviously been singing from the beginning to try to get a lighter sentence. Given the sentence that he got do you think he was successful? In other words what kind of sentence do you think he would have gotten without trying to spill the beans on other refs?

I don't think he has been sentenced yet. When he is sentenced I would say:

(a) If the FBI genuinely believes he has been honest and cooperative he will get a lighter sentence;

(b) if the FBI believes he has fed them lies to try to lighten his sentence he will at most be charged with another felony for lying to the FBI and at least get a worse sentence.

It is not a risk free game to make things up for Donoughy.

I agree it isn't a risk free game for him. But from what i have seen his allegations in that letter are conspicuously free of any other refs being involved with bookies or any gambling other than going to casinos.

i don't think Stern would have asked for $1 million in restitution if he was worried about Donaghy's allegations becoming public.

[AHF]

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Let me ask you something.

He has obviously been singing from the beginning to try to get a lighter sentence. Given the sentence that he got do you think he was successful? In other words what kind of sentence do you think he would have gotten without trying to spill the beans on other refs?

I don't think he has been sentenced yet. When he is sentenced I would say:

(a) If the FBI genuinely believes he has been honest and cooperative he will get a lighter sentence;

(b) if the FBI believes he has fed them lies to try to lighten his sentence he will at most be charged with another felony for lying to the FBI and at least get a worse sentence.

It is not a risk free game to make things up for Donoughy.

I agree it isn't a risk free game for him. But from what i have seen his allegations in that letter are conspicuously free of any other refs being involved with bookies or any gambling other than going to casinos.

i don't think Stern would have asked for $1 million in restitution if he was worried about Donaghy's allegations becoming public.

I don't think there is any evidence that games were fixed because of connections with bookies. The allegation is that they were fixed by the league.

I agree Stern did not foresee these allegations becoming public. He was aware of them last year and only publically commented on much more minor issues. I am willing to bet that Stern would take back that $1 million restitution demand in a second if he could. This press coverage is terrible for the league.

[AHF]

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i don't think Stern would have asked for $1 million in restitution if he was worried about Donaghy's allegations becoming public.

Another consequence of the restitution demand that the NBA didn't foresee is that Donoughy's lawyer will likely get to review the league's entire investigative file. If there is anything in there, it is at risk for being leaked. If not, there is a substantial risk that what the NBA didn't do will be leaked.

Already, Stern claimed the 2002 game was investigated and one of the official said publically yesterday that he has never been interviewed by the NBA or the FBI, which calls that into serious question. I don't think Stern wants this whole process dragged over and second-guessed.

Moreover, how much does Donoughy really have in assets? He is probably judgment-proof anyway.

[AHF]

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My main thing is the fact that the star system is so known that it is not even funny. A foul should be a foul whether its Kobe Bryant or Zaza Pachulia. Who is the NBA to say that one players desire to win is more important than another. It is messed up and the need to have stars instead of promoting the game is what is killing them. I haven't watched one game of the finals but I can bet that they are killing the Lakers vs. Celtics 80's rivalry.

To me that is what makes this such a public relations nightmare for the league. How hard is it to go from a system where the NBA gives favoritism in calls to its stars in order to promote its most marketable players and make more money to a step farther where the system favoritism to its most marketable teams or at least the teams with the most marketable players in order to make more money?

I think it is a given that the NBA favors its stars in the way games are called. The rationale behind that isn't much different from promoting teams as Donoughy alleges.

(Note: The star system may or may not be dictated from the league office but it is so obvious that even if the league has never said anything, it hasn't done anything credible to address the issue and is at least guilty of willifully failing to enforce its rules on the star issue.)

Let me add one more thing that makes this such a PR nightmare for the league. The comments of current players and coaches about these allegations. Normally, you would expect the players and coaches to reject the idea of refs fixing games out of hand as ridiculous and say it could never happen. Instead, the losing team's player, Scott Pollard, said:

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"My first thought [upon hearing Donaghy's allegation] was:

I knew it

," Pollard said Tuesday night.

From the winning team's coach:

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Also Tuesday, Lakers coach Phil Jackson was asked about the allegations regarding Game 6 of the 2002 series against Sacramento.

"Was that after the fifth game, after we had the

game stolen away from us after a bad call

out of bounds and gave the ball back to Sacramento and they made a 3-point shot?" he said. "

There's a lot of things going on in these games and they're suspicious

, but I don't want to throw it back to there."

The guy with the most championship rings in history is asked about this and responds by saying a lot of the refereeing is "suspicious"? Yikes. This is a PR debacle for the league that isn't going to go away without a lot of work.

[exodus]

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I don't think there is any evidence that games were fixed because of connections with bookies. The allegation is that they were fixed by the league.

If it was true that the games were fixed by the league then you would think he would be able to come up with more recent examples or games that weren't controversial. Instead he points to a controversial game 6 years ago.

As far as the Yao situation that is way overblown. Cuban claimed he was setting moving screens and complained. The refs probably watched tapes to see if it was true. if it was then they would look out for it in the upcoming games. I don't see how that is a damaging allegation at all. I have no doubt that same scenario plays out all the time. Teams complain about something and send tapes to get the refs' attention.

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Moreover, how much does Donoughy really have in assets? He is probably judgment-proof anyway.

I don't think they actually expect to get much money from him. I just think it was a means to further punish him. I think i read somewhere that this could be taken into account during sentencing.

[AHF]

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He also pointed to the 2005 NBA playoffs (again not by name but it has been ID'd as the Rockets/Dallas series) as one where the NBA manipulated the referees (and a 2000 incident).

As an aside, this is the series where Jeff Van Gundy was fined $100,000 for claiming that an NBA official told him Yao Ming was being targeted for fouls.

[exodus]

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He also pointed to the 2005 NBA playoffs (again not by name but it has been ID'd as the Rockets/Dallas series) as one where the NBA manipulated the referees (and a 2000 incident).

As an aside, this is the series where Jeff Van Gundy was fined $100,000 for claiming that an NBA official told him Yao Ming was being targeted for fouls.

I remember that. I thought it was overblown. Cuban sent tapes complaining that Yao was setting moving screens. Sending tapes to the league is the only way to really protest bad officiating.

My guess is that the tapes did show illegal screens by Yao and so the refs were told to look out for them. I don't see that as a damaging allegation at all.