Hawks Identity

[EazyRoc]

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You and foeteen are right. Woody shouldn't have played his bench down the playoff stretch. It was far to late then. But what about when this team was losing 5 or 6 games in a row? What about when the games got out of hand and he didn't put in his bench early enough? What about when he admitted to playing his starters to much only to turn around and do the same thing.

A young, under talented group such as the Hawks bench cannot be thrust into action, they must be developed. Woody didn't develop his bench over the 82 game season in practice or the real games. If he had been incorporating them steadily over the course of the season they would have been more of a threat during the playoff run. Like when Mario started for MW and played fairly well. Woody sent him back to the bench afterward and gave him his usual 30 seconds at the end of quarters. That would have been the perfect time to get Mario comfortable on the floor so he could help this team more.

The reason I bring up Phil Jackson is because when his bench fails they turn and look expecting to be yanked. Only Phil doesn't do it. He makes them work thu there problems. Over an 82 game season guys like Farmar, Vujacic, Turiaf, Walton and the Rad man all got better and helped there team get into and also win in the playoffs.

Whats the difference between Turiaf and Solo?

You don't think Salim could be as good as Vujacic or Farmar?

Richardson may be inexperienced but showed he can shoot just like the Rad man in L.A.

So stop bringing up the playoff run when i'm referring to the entire season where these players should have had on the job training on the floor.

Remember, this team wasn't even a 500. ball club mid season so its not like we were on some great role that the chemistry would have been affected.

37-45 and we had no time to develop a bench? Makes no sense!

I agree that Woodson should have played his bench more during those garbage minutes. Farmar isn't a great player, but at least he has a position. He is a PG, and plays the position decently. Vujajic is a good defender and a good perimeter shooter, so no, I do not think Salim could have been as good as either.

The problem with Salim is that the Hawks tried to make him something he is not, a PG. Salim should have been used like Eddie House, Ben Gorden and Earl Boykins. Farmar never strikes me as the Pg when he is in the game. Either Walton or Vujacic seems to handle the ball more than him. He is a good jump shooter and I believe Salim could play his role on the lakers. I don't believe any player on the Lakers bench would have been developed properly on the Hawks bench.

Salims main problem is his defense IMO.

Salim's main problem is that he isn't as good a shooter as advertised. He would come in a lot of games and throw up a lot of bricks. The fact that he really is a SG that isn't a consistent shooter and that he can't run PG in limited minutes are probably the main reasons he didn't get a lot of playing time.

[foeteen14]

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You and foeteen are right. Woody shouldn't have played his bench down the playoff stretch. It was far to late then. But what about when this team was losing 5 or 6 games in a row? What about when the games got out of hand and he didn't put in his bench early enough? What about when he admitted to playing his starters to much only to turn around and do the same thing.

A young, under talented group such as the Hawks bench cannot be thrust into action, they must be developed. Woody didn't develop his bench over the 82 game season in practice or the real games. If he had been incorporating them steadily over the course of the season they would have been more of a threat during the playoff run. Like when Mario started for MW and played fairly well. Woody sent him back to the bench afterward and gave him his usual 30 seconds at the end of quarters. That would have been the perfect time to get Mario comfortable on the floor so he could help this team more.

The reason I bring up Phil Jackson is because when his bench fails they turn and look expecting to be yanked. Only Phil doesn't do it. He makes them work thu there problems. Over an 82 game season guys like Farmar, Vujacic, Turiaf, Walton and the Rad man all got better and helped there team get into and also win in the playoffs.

Whats the difference between Turiaf and Solo?

You don't think Salim could be as good as Vujacic or Farmar?

Richardson may be inexperienced but showed he can shoot just like the Rad man in L.A.

So stop bringing up the playoff run when i'm referring to the entire season where these players should have had on the job training on the floor.

Remember, this team wasn't even a 500. ball club mid season so its not like we were on some great role that the chemistry would have been affected.

37-45 and we had no time to develop a bench? Makes no sense!

you act as if we ever had a playoff spot sowed up. we were always fighting for a playoff spot. we weren't ever 10-15 over 500%. we were always on the brink. we needed to win every game we won, whether it was in Dec. or April to get into the playoffs.

Those guys you mention from the lakers are average players. the hawks players that we're talking about (except Law) are waaaaay below average players. they would not excel on any team, no matter how they were used. they should be or should've been in the nbdl developing their limited skills. also, those lakers players fit very well into phil's offensive philosophy, solo, richardson, salim, and west don't fit well into woodson's offensive philosophy (just typing that last sentence made me laugh because we all know woody has no offensive philosohphy). in woody's offensive (lol) you have to be able to 1) create you own shot, 2) create plays for others, 3) get garbage points on put backs, and 4) make free throws. you've got to be able to do at least two of those things to see the court with woodson as the coach.

salim- only does #4 but he is always jacking up threes so he never get fouled.

solo- may do # 3, but he is so weak he rarely finishes on the put back

richardson- does none of these

west- does none of these

Law- can do #1, #2, #4, but most of the time he looked light a deer in headlights after he came back from injury. he would get the court and not do anything. just bring the ball up the court and pass it to JJ or smoove. but he was a rookie so that can be excepted.

look at the people who played

JJ- #1, #2, #4

bibs- #1, #2, #4

marvin- #1, #4

smoove- #1, #2, #3, #4(sometimes)

horf- #1, #3, #4

chillz-#3, #4

zaza-#1 (limited), #3, #4 (most of the time)

There is a very large emphasis on being able to create your own shot and make free throws.

[Peoriabird]

This statement says it all!

When Marvin was out and West started he made more impact than Marvin did but the next game he gets 30 seconds.

The discussion should have ended after the above claim because the poster obviously doesn't know what he is looking at during the course of a basketball game!

[Diesel]

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This statement says it all!

When Marvin was out and

West started he made more impact than Marvin

did but the next game he gets 30 seconds.

The discussion should have ended after the above claim because the poster obviously doesn't know what he is looking at during the course of a basketball game!

Even I disagree about West. His best game was here.

It was really nothing special.

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Mario West made his second career start, finishing with seven points and five rebounds in 16 minutes.

The thinking is more minutes would have led to more production, but sometimes, I think it tapers off. I will say that Woody does underplay our bench, but maybe it was to get Bibby used to playing with starters.

[Cwell]

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This statement says it all!

When Marvin was out and

West started he made more impact than Marvin

did but the next game he gets 30 seconds.

The discussion should have ended after the above claim because the poster obviously doesn't know what he is looking at during the course of a basketball game!

Who said he performed better than Marvin.I know what I said,West made big impact when he started.All in the 1st quarter alone in the Milwaukee game he made a few great steals a hook shot in the lane as well as a highlight dunk.I never implyed that he was BETTER than Marvin,that would be stupid but he did make more game changing plays that Marvin usually does.

[Cwell]

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from what i've seen, woody will let you hang yourself. if you come out and play and show that you got some skill, try your best to improve he'll play you. but when you don't perform, or try your hardest, or wost of all, don't play defense, that's when the floor disappears from under your feet.

btw, the hawks had to make the playoffs last year, could you imagine what it would be like if we didn't. he had to do what he had to do, if you don't see that you're just being spiteful.

Let you hang yourself? Have you taken a look at how the minutes broke down this season. Woody didn't allow anyone other than JJ, the starters and Chillz to prove themselves. You are making excuses for a man who even admits himself he made mistakes.

How do you account for his assistants wanting him to play Acie more? Woody is bull headed and stuck on his own understanding. Him not developing his bench amounted to 37-45. And you and others are bragging on this as if the man did a have decent job last season.

Watching NBA tv last season even Peter Vescey would comment on how the starters played to many minutes when they would recap the Hawks games. If you don't see that then you're being shortsided.

And I am happy to see another man get outta the hood into the suburbs. But 37-45 is the Zone 3, cleveland avenue, of the NBA. If Woody wants to get this Hawks squad to Buckhead then he needs to change his coaching style now.

If Acie Law would have gave our team a chance to win last year, Mike Woodson would have played him. We needed to win and go to the playoffs, not develop our young players. Our bench is just not skilled enough to get the consistent minutes everyone wanted Woodson to give. Mario West ? Solomon Jones ? Jeremy Richardson ? C'mon man, if the Hawks were to cut them right now, I doubt any of those guys would ever find a team where they would get the PT the Hawks gave them last year. If you think playing those guys would have made the difference between 37 wins and whatever figure you had in mind, you're wrong. we lost games Acie Law was playing well and got pulled from.Woody cost us more games than Law could have.We shouldn't have had to limp into the playoffs if it wasn't for him. We did ? Do you have an example ? Are you implying we lost those games because Woody pulled him ?

Look, I'm no Mike Woodson fan. However, you can't blame him for limping into the playoffs. Doc Rivers said it best when everyone was trying to hail him as a "legendary" coach, and he replied that the players did all the work to get where they are at or something along those lines. Bottom line, we limped in the playoffs because our players played like they wanted to limp into the playoffs. Also, there are very few games when what Woody did directly resulted in us losing. Of course, you could come up with a bunch of theories and hypotheticals, but it's the players that play. It's the players that shoot, defend, and rebound. However, whenever they don't do that well, everyone wants to blame Mike Woodson. When we make the playoffs running an 8-man rotation year round, people get mad and call out Mike Woodson because he didn't give a bunch of scrubs some burn. If we would have missed the playoffs this year, people would have whined about not making the playoffs in a weak Eastern Conference. Sometimes people need to let go of their vendettas and just things for what they are. It's the players that play but it's the coach that decides who plays.It's no surprise Lue kills ball movememt and gives up baskets on the other end because he's one of the worst defenders on the planet.

You want some games Woody lost for us?I can think of 2 off the top of my head right now.

Jan. 21 against Portland,game after AJ was suspended against Toronto.Acie started and looked nothing like the backup we saw every game before (because uh he was playing with good players). He was setting guys up not turning the ball over and even scored a little.He even hit a 3 in transition.Our starteds clearly out played theirs and we had the lead.Come 4 quarter,of course Woody pulls the rook and plays Lue.Acie finished with 7 and 5 with no TO's.Lue of course ball hogged and threw up shots and played bad defense (no surprise at all,we know what Lue can do as a player it isn't gonna magically change).We gave up the lead in the 4th and ended up in overtime.Woody continued to go away from what worked and still played Lue and we lost.The game would have never gotten that heated if he didn't go away from the starters.

another game Feb. 13 against Charlotte.

Acie's best offensive game of the year he was hitting his jumpers and floaters and turn around J's all game.We get to the 4th quarter and luckily he's still playing it gets close but we had the lead.We needed a basket then Acie comes up with a floater in the lane that looked like it was stopped.One of the few times he got the chance to be clutch.A little while after Woody pulls him FOR NO REASON and puts in a cold AJ which hadn't done a damn thing all game long.What does AJ do?he throws up 2 quick bad shots.We end up in overtime,Woody doesn't go back to Acie again and plays AJ.Aj ends up fouling Matt Carroll behind the 3 point line at a crucial time.We lost. One game where u think Acie finally should have got 30 minutes,Woody pulls him at 29 lol (bet he did that on purpose).Funny how that game Childress was injured,so if w had Chillz please believe Law is on that bench.

[Zone034life]

Woody offensive philosophy? I'll give you a pass since you laughed it off.

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he would get the court and not do anything. just bring the ball up the court and pass it to JJ or smoove.

This is Woody's offense. You can't blame Acie for following directions. Woody did not trust him to run the offense on his own(not placing all blame on Woody for this). Woody does not know how to properly develop young players. He would much rather have all veterans who know what to do already. Thus the comments he made when Bibby came. But the problem is that was the hand he was dealt. A true coach can:

Adapt to his roster

Get the most out of every player on the floor and bench

Motivate each player

Put each player in a position to succeed

Teach when necessary

I don't think Woody possesses any of these qualities. He can't make a dollar out of 15 cents. You say that Turiaf is an above average player. Now thats funny! He is an energy player who is more of a cheerleader than a ball player. Phil got the most out of that young man. Woody doesn't possess that quality. Vujacic nor Farmar was as good the year before as he was last season. Phil found them a role and they attacked it in the offseason and were much better the next season. The Rad man is a veteran who can shoot with horrible defense.

I can remember when Artest was killing the Hawks in Sactown. Marvin had no chance against him so they tried Smoove. He was just to strong. He inserted Mario and he at least gave him a challenge. Artest even seemed to respect Mario's intensity. Why didn't Woody insert him when Al Thortan was torching this team? When Brandon Roy was mounting the comeback in Portland?

Its a time and a place when these bench players could have been used. The Coach just didn't use them properly as he didn't the starters.

The bench usage is only one of Woody's downfalls as a coach. You wanna start another thread on clock management, the two foul rule, not listening to assit. coaches, lack of offensive plays, lack of discipline by players on the floor,etc?

I don't expect him to use Solo or Salim correctly when he doesn't use the starters correctly either.