Si ranks Hawks 9

[Dexmethylphenidate]

I think people are undervaluing Evans. But even if you see that as a fairly large drop off, this bench has a lot more usable players than it did at the end of the season last year.

And over evaluating childress... if he didn't played 33 mins/game (Woody is the problem here) then this wouldn't have been even in discussion.

[frosgrim]

I don't get the idea that Miami will be that much better this year. They have no point. They have no size on the blocks. And, they have no bench. They have NO shooting in the starting 5. Any team can go to a 2-3 zone against Miami and completely shut them down for long stretches. Put it this way, when the Hawks play a 2-3 Smith really has the freedom to patrol the paint. If he doesn't have to worry about someone in his zone hitting a 15' jumper, then he can cheat into the paint. Same goes for Garnett, Bosh, Howard, Okafor, Ben Wallace, and the other starting PF and Cs in the East.

Miami is rebuilding. Beasly may very well be ROY, but Miami doens't have the overall talent that Atlanta did last year when Horford was such a great addition. Second, Beasly has to show that he can play with the bigger and quicker NBA PFs. Third, PF is not as much of an impact position as C.

I just don't see Miami being more than a 32 win team and proably more like a 28 win team.

Thus, I see the Hawks being well ahead of the Heat this season.

[Swish]

Valid points, all frosgrim, but I still think the Heat will sneak up on some people. If wade plays like he's playing now, with Marion and Beasley they could be a little better than you think.

However, I think beasley is overrated. The rookie of the year will be OJ Mayo. Mark it down.

[frosgrim]

Valid points, all frosgrim, but I still think the Heat will sneak up on some people. If wade plays like he's playing now, with Marion and Beasley they could be a little better than you think.

However, I think beasley is overrated. The rookie of the year will be OJ Mayo. Mark it down.

The problem is that all three of their main scorers are slashers. You can't win with that consistantly, especially with zone defenses being allowed.

Just as the Hawks struggled to score before Bibby, the Heat will have the same problems. Wade can play out of his mind, but the fact is if all you have to do is pack the lane against the Heat, there ain't no way they can score consistently enough to be a good team.

On defense Miami is also going to have problems. Beasly is going to be abused at times, all rooks are. Haslem can't guard centers, but it looks like that is their plan. Marion is a good defender, but he'll have to spend time covering for Beasly and Haslem. Wade obviously is a terrific player, but just as Joe can't do it all and stay fresh, Wade can't either. Point is going to kill Miami. They don't have a guy that can guard any of the starting PGs in the East right now.

Edited August 15, 2008 by frosgrim

[DrReality]

How long has it been since we had a pg to lead our team? Since Mookie? Now we have Bibby to do that and Acie in the wings. The pg is how teams develop and become more than just the sum of their parts. I don't think that's been given full value and could be the 'X' factor for us. And we've added depth there with Flip,. That being said I think we can do better than 9.

[frosgrim]

How long has it been since we had a pg to lead our team? Since Mookie? Now we have Bibby to do that and Acie in the wings. The pg is how teams develop and become more than just the sum of their parts. I don't think that's been given full value and could be the 'X' factor for us. And we've added depth there with Flip,. That being said I think we can do better than 9.

Couldn't agree more DrR.

The Hawks have had success when they've had a PG and sucked when they didn't. Rivers, Mookie, and now Bibby. Other than those 3 I don't think the Hawks have had a PG of any note since I began paying attention to the Hawks in the early 1980s.

Hopefully Bibby will show why he was considered a top pg in the NBA a few years ago.

The issues I see going forward:

Can Woody release the offense to actually be a team offense? Bibby can faciliate a team offense as demonstrated by his work in Sactown. Woodson now needs to realize that isos for JJ just don't cut it.

Can Bibby give us anything on defense? This is actually my biggest concern. The Hawks gave up a ton of points with Bibby at the point. AJ however limited he was really played defense as demonstrated by the opponents PPG avg before and after the trade. Acie, Flip, and Craig can really help with this probem. The key is can they stay healthy.

Will Woodson actually play his bench now? Woodson really needs to stop being so concerned about his job and just coach. Woody made an increadibly selfish decission by playing only a 7 man rotation last year. He did this to save his job. That it got the Hawks into the playoffs is almost ancillary. Woodson has to put his ego aside and just coach the TEAM, not just his favorite 7. The bench must play throughout the season to keep injuries down, and to keep guys fresh come the Spring.

[Swatguy]

Couldn't agree more DrR.

The Hawks have had success when they've had a PG and sucked when they didn't. Rivers, Mookie, and now Bibby. Other than those 3 I don't think the Hawks have had a PG of any note since I began paying attention to the Hawks in the early 1980s.

Hopefully Bibby will show why he was considered a top pg in the NBA a few years ago.

The issues I see going forward:

Can Woody release the offense to actually be a team offense? Bibby can faciliate a team offense as demonstrated by his work in Sactown. Woodson now needs to realize that isos for JJ just don't cut it.

Can Bibby give us anything on defense? This is actually my biggest concern. The Hawks gave up a ton of points with Bibby at the point. AJ however limited he was really played defense as demonstrated by the opponents PPG avg before and after the trade. Acie, Flip, and Craig can really help with this probem. The key is can they stay healthy.

Will Woodson actually play his bench now? Woodson really needs to stop being so concerned about his job and just coach. Woody made an increadibly selfish decission by playing only a 7 man rotation last year. He did this to save his job. That it got the Hawks into the playoffs is almost ancillary. Woodson has to put his ego aside and just coach the TEAM, not just his favorite 7. The bench must play throughout the season to keep injuries down, and to keep guys fresh come the Spring.

So you wanted to play Richardson, Mario, Solo and Law more?

It is a big difference in trusting Mo, Flip and Speedy instead of those four guys.

[crimedog]

I don't get the idea that Miami will be that much better this year. They have no point. They have no size on the blocks. And, they have no bench. They have NO shooting in the starting 5. Any team can go to a 2-3 zone against Miami and completely shut them down for long stretches. Put it this way, when the Hawks play a 2-3 Smith really has the freedom to patrol the paint. If he doesn't have to worry about someone in his zone hitting a 15' jumper, then he can cheat into the paint. Same goes for Garnett, Bosh, Howard, Okafor, Ben Wallace, and the other starting PF and Cs in the East.

Miami is rebuilding. Beasly may very well be ROY, but Miami doens't have the overall talent that Atlanta did last year when Horford was such a great addition. Second, Beasly has to show that he can play with the bigger and quicker NBA PFs. Third, PF is not as much of an impact position as C.

I just don't see Miami being more than a 32 win team and proably more like a 28 win team.

Thus, I see the Hawks being well ahead of the Heat this season.

Good points all around. People say that Lebron had "no help" in Cle or Kobe had "no help" in LA a couple years ago but they at least had guys that could fill roles at certain spots.

Miami's options at C are 6-8 Haslem who has only once averaged .5 bpg or Blount who would be a fine option if he weren't completely terrible.

Slide down to the point and you either have to trust Marcus Banks or Mario Chalmers - a moron and a second round rookie respectively... unless you want to run Wade at the point of an undersized running team but that is a recipe for disaster because the whole goal this year is NOT to work him to death when the team has no shot at contention.

The second and third best players are Shawn Marion who has had the most success of his career as a power forward who played off the ball with the league's premier point guard and a rookie, who I like a lot, but is mainly a ball-dominant scorer.

I really don't see them making much noise unless they make a few trades, might still happen. I thought they'd make a strong move for Mo Williams with Haslem. Hinrich is an option too but I'm not so sure what they'd offer outside of D Cook.

[Swish]

Good points all around. People say that Lebron had "no help" in Cle or Kobe had "no help" in LA a couple years ago but they at least had guys that could fill roles at certain spots.

Miami's options at C are 6-8 Haslem who has only once averaged .5 bpg or Blount who would be a fine option if he weren't completely terrible.

Slide down to the point and you either have to trust Marcus Banks or Mario Chalmers - a moron and a second round rookie respectively... unless you want to run Wade at the point of an undersized running team but that is a recipe for disaster because the whole goal this year is NOT to work him to death when the team has no shot at contention.

The second and third best players are Shawn Marion who has had the most success of his career as a power forward who played off the ball with the league's premier point guard and a rookie, who I like a lot, but is mainly a ball-dominant scorer.

I really don't see them making much noise unless they make a few trades, might still happen. I thought they'd make a strong move for Mo Williams with Haslem. Hinrich is an option too but I'm not so sure what they'd offer outside of D Cook.

Crimedog, your 2008 Squawk Rookie of the Year!

[frosgrim]

So you wanted to play Richardson, Mario, Solo and Law more?

It is a big difference in trusting Mo, Flip and Speedy instead of those four guys.

Yes, guys should have gotten more playing time off the bench, esp. Law once he was healthy. Woodson's own coaches told him needed to play the bench more. Playing guys as much as he did towards the end of the season is a recipie for serious injury. Woodson lucked out in that no one got hurt.

The fact of the matter is that you have to play all 12 guys on your roster throughout the season. Minor injuries occur, suspensions occur, slumps occur. When these happen you need to have guys ready to step in and play. The way you keep your bench fresh is to play them. You don't have to play everyone every night, but you do need to play them at regular intervals so that they can contribute when called on.

Point of fact, we don't know how the Hawks bench would have performed, none of them played enough to make that determination. The argument that they weren't good enough to play is neither here nor there simply because there is insufficient data. We do have data that says very clearly that the assistant coaches and the GM believed that the bench should have been played more. That knowledgable basketball people believed the bench should have played more is enough for me to make the determination that Woodson acted in his own self interest to detriment of his team and the individual players.

[Hatertots]

I don't get the idea that Miami will be that much better this year. They have no point. They have no size on the blocks. And, they have no bench. They have NO shooting in the starting 5. Any team can go to a 2-3 zone against Miami and completely shut them down for long stretches. Put it this way, when the Hawks play a 2-3 Smith really has the freedom to patrol the paint. If he doesn't have to worry about someone in his zone hitting a 15' jumper, then he can cheat into the paint. Same goes for Garnett, Bosh, Howard, Okafor, Ben Wallace, and the other starting PF and Cs in the East.

Miami is rebuilding. Beasly may very well be ROY, but Miami doens't have the overall talent that Atlanta did last year when Horford was such a great addition. Second, Beasly has to show that he can play with the bigger and quicker NBA PFs. Third, PF is not as much of an impact position as C.

I just don't see Miami being more than a 32 win team and proably more like a 28 win team.

Thus, I see the Hawks being well ahead of the Heat this season.

I'm betting that they'll be a much better team this year for the same reason that New Orleans was so much better last year: they got their superstar back. For all of the things that Miami doesn't have, the things that they do have make them competitive in the East, namely, they have two above average rebounders in Haslem and Marion and an elite scorer in Wade.

I respectfully disagree with your position that Atlanta has more talent than the Heat. Wade is one of the five to ten most productive players in the NBA when healthy, as he appears to be based on his Olympic play. The Hawks don't have anyone nearly so talented. I agree that the Hawks have a greater number of talented players than the Heat, but unfortunately, Wade is the best player by a wide margin on either team, and that counts for a lot in basketball.

But FWIW, I'll be much happier if it turns out that you're right!

[Red Hawk #21]

I can't believe they rank us as #9. Personally I think we can 50 games but some people may think Im getting ahead of myself. But lets say everyone works hard and improves over the sumer we should look something like this:

Pg Mike Bibby - 13pts 7 assists

Sg Joe Johnson- 20 pts 4 assists 4 rebs

Sf Marvin Williams 17 pts 1 assist 4 rebs

Pf Josh Smith 19 pts 3 assists 8 rebs

C Al Horford 15 pts 10 rebs

Bench

Maurice Evans 9 pts 2 rebs

Zaza 7 pts 3 rebs

Flip Murray 7 pts

Speedy Claxton 6 pts 2assists

Acie Law 6 pts 3 assists

Randolph Morris 5 pts.

Solomon Jones ?

Mario West?

I think that team would be good enough to win 50 games, I also think we have the most athletic team in the whole Nba

[Boomer]

Great points all around. I think the east is pretty wide open actually. Especially after the top two or three teams. There will probably be a couple of teams that will greatly underperform due to injuries.

If Bibby stays healthy for the whole season, and Acie steps it up, I think we'll be in the thick of things. I'm really hoping for good things from Randolph Morris too. The season can't start soon enough!

[Johnnybravo4]

I dont know about the sixers yet. Brand hasn't help a team win anything. The Bulls are better without him and arguably the Clippers will be. Brand may be the Shareef of this era.

[frosgrim]

Heat Roster:

6 Blake Ahearn (FA) G 6-2 190 05/27/1984 Missouri State 1

50 Joel Anthony C 6-9 245 08/09/1982 Nevada-Las Vegas 1

5 Marcus Banks G 6-2 212 11/19/1981 Nevada-Las Vegas 5 ]

30 Earl Barron (FA) F-C 7-0 245 08/14/1981 Memphis 3

Michael Beasley F 6-10 235 01/09/1989 Kansas State R

15 Mark Blount C-F 7-0 250 11/30/1975 Pittsburgh 8

Mario Chalmers G 6-1 190 05/19/1986 Kansas R

14 Daequan Cook G 6-5 205 04/28/1987 Ohio State 1

Yakhouba Diawara F-G 6-7 225 08/29/1982 Pepperdine 2

40 Udonis Haslem F 6-8 235 06/09/1980 Florida 5

13 Alexander Johnson F 6-9 230 02/08/1983 Florida State 2

James Jones F 6-8 220 10/04/1980 Miami (Fla.) 5

45 Stephane Lasme F 6-8 215 12/17/1982 Massachusetts 1

7 Shawn Marion F 6-7 230 05/07/1978 UNLV 9

33 Alonzo Mourning (FA) C 6-10 261 02/08/1970 Georgetown 15

12 Kasib Powell (FA) F 6-7 215 03/18/1981 Texas Tech 1

11 Chris Quinn (FA) G 6-2 175 09/27/1983 Notre Dame 2

3 Dwyane Wade G 6-4 216 01/17/1982 Marquette 5

1 Dorell Wright (FA) F 6-9 210 12/02/1985 South Kent Prep HS (Lawndale, CA)

HOLLY COW, that roster is more talented than the Hawks? You have got to be kidding me.

Even if Wade is fully healthy, he is not enough to carry that collection to anything more than 28-32 wins.

That roster reminds me of the Hawks' roster when Walker was on the team.

[Wretch]

Hey it's a start. Nobody gave us a 2nd thought last year...(though we didn't exactly prove anything, except that we didnt' suck as bad as Indy or Chicago).

[Chris18]

This team is good enough to win 45-50 games but it all depends on how our young talent develops and how Woody uses the bench.

[crimedog]

I'm betting that they'll be a much better team this year for the same reason that New Orleans was so much better last year: they got their superstar back. For all of the things that Miami doesn't have, the things that they do have make them competitive in the East, namely, they have two above average rebounders in Haslem and Marion and an elite scorer in Wade.

I respectfully disagree with your position that Atlanta has more talent than the Heat. Wade is one of the five to ten most productive players in the NBA when healthy, as he appears to be based on his Olympic play. The Hawks don't have anyone nearly so talented. I agree that the Hawks have a greater number of talented players than the Heat, but unfortunately, Wade is the best player by a wide margin on either team, and that counts for a lot in basketball.

But FWIW, I'll be much happier if it turns out that you're right!

But really good teams have all the roles filled. Interior defense is gonna be a HUGE problem for them. They don't have a point guard as accomplished as Anthony Johnson on the roster, let alone a decent backup. Lebron and Kobe's bad teams at least had starting caliber players who could fill the roles those teams need filled, the Heat are going to over-use Wade on offense because no one else can handle the ball and they are going to get destroyed inside on defense because their best inside player is U Haslem and they don't have an elite core of perimeter defenders to make up for it.

[Hatertots]

Heat Roster:

HOLLY COW, that roster is more talented than the Hawks? You have got to be kidding me.

Even if Wade is fully healthy, he is not enough to carry that collection to anything more than 28-32 wins.

That roster reminds me of the Hawks' roster when Walker was on the team.

Fros, 80% of a team's success is determined by the top 3 players on a team. It's called the Pareto principle and it's an astonishingly good indicator of team success. KG/Pierce/Rondo, CP3/Chandler/West, Kobe/Pau/Odom, Duncan/Manu/Parker (and so on and so on) all account for the majority of their team's wins . Wade/Marion/Beasley is a pretty good trio of players, even if Beasley turns out to be below average.

You're right to point out that the rest of the roster isn't anything to write home about, which is why I don't think they can make it past the 2nd round of the playoffs, when the supporting casts separate the elite teams from the pretenders. Without some quality additions, Miami is a pretender. But the C's didn't have their bench set at the start of last season, so we'll see what happens. But getting a top-flight threesome is the hardest part. Barring injuries, I think they can win 40-44 games, as presently constructed.

If all the major players from Atlanta perform up to last year's standards, I think we're looking at a 30-35 win season. Horford/Smith/JJ is a good trio, but none is elite (yet). Their better is better than our better.

[Red Hawk #21]

Fros, 80% of a team's success is determined by the top 3 players on a team. It's called the Pareto principle and it's an astonishingly good indicator of team success. KG/Pierce/Rondo, CP3/Chandler/West, Kobe/Pau/Odom, Duncan/Manu/Parker (and so on and so on) all account for the majority of their team's wins . Wade/Marion/Beasley is a pretty good trio of players, even if Beasley turns out to be below average.

You're right to point out that the rest of the roster isn't anything to write home about, which is why I don't think they can make it past the 2nd round of the playoffs, when the supporting casts separate the elite teams from the pretenders. Without some quality additions, Miami is a pretender. But the C's didn't have their bench set at the start of last season, so we'll see what happens. But getting a top-flight threesome is the hardest part. Barring injuries, I think they can win 40-44 games, as presently constructed.

If all the major players from Atlanta perform up to last year's standards, I think we're looking at a 30-35 win season. Horford/Smith/JJ is a good trio, but none is elite (yet). Their better is better than our better.

What you don't realize is that the Wade/ Marion/ Beasley trio will under perform without a solid PG imo