Joe Choked

[AHF]

You guys are getting so defensive you're not making any sense. ^^^ makes absolutly no sense. None. No one is saying Joe is a choke artists. And yes, the players you mentioned above have all choked at some point in their careers. Doesn't make them a choke artists, but they will be the first to tell you they have done it.

I think that is getting to the heart of the question.

In your mind, is the failure to succeed in a pressure situation the definition of choke?

In my mind, choking is failing to do something that you would do in a non-pressure situation because the pressure gets to you.

To me, if someone shoots 80% from the FT line and hits 80% of his FTs in clutch situations then he probably doesn't choke and is not clutch. He simply maintains his performance.

If someone shoots 80% from the FT line and hit 90% of his FTs in clutch situations, then he doesn't choke and is clutch.

If someone shoots 80% from the FT line and hits 67% of his FTs in clutch situation, then he does choke and is not clutch.

Those are generalities but when you compress to too small a sample size it is tough to find anything meaningful.

So I agree that Joe failed in that situation, but it doesn't amount to a choke for me because I expect him to fail in clutch situations - just not to fail at a rate that is higher than his non-clutch failure rate.

[jhay610]

I think that is getting to the heart of the question.

In your mind, is the failure to succeed in a pressure situation the definition of choke?

In my mind, choking is failing to do something that you would do in a non-pressure situation because the pressure gets to you.

To me, if someone shoots 80% from the FT line and hits 80% of his FTs in clutch situations then he probably doesn't choke and is not clutch. He simply maintains his performance.

If someone shoots 80% from the FT line and hit 90% of his FTs in clutch situations, then he doesn't choke and is clutch.

If someone shoots 80% from the FT line and hits 67% of his FTs in clutch situation, then he does choke and is not clutch.

Those are generalities but when you compress to too small a sample size it is tough to find anything meaningful.

So I agree that Joe failed in that situation, but it doesn't amount to a choke for me because I expect him to fail in clutch situations - just not to fail at a rate that is higher than his non-clutch failure rate.

Jeez man you are really good at this. I think people are obviously coming from different places on the word "choke". I will say that even though what Ex is saying sounds a bit off-base, there is some truth to it.

Someone affected by the gravity of the moment will more likely miss badly. Pushing it a touch long is a shooter's miss. It happens.

Joe failed but I don't consider it a choke considering his history and his current clutch free throw %.

I think inferring that Joe is admitting to choking from his quote of "the pressure was on and I missed" is a reach. That is just stating the obvious and owning the failure.

[gsuteke]

Jeez man you are really good at this.

That's why we pay him the big bucks

[00Blink]

I think that is getting to the heart of the question.

In your mind, is the failure to succeed in a pressure situation the definition of choke?

In my mind, choking is failing to do something that you would do in a non-pressure situation because the pressure gets to you.

To me, if someone shoots 80% from the FT line and hits 80% of his FTs in clutch situations then he probably doesn't choke and is not clutch. He simply maintains his performance.

If someone shoots 80% from the FT line and hit 90% of his FTs in clutch situations, then he doesn't choke and is clutch.

If someone shoots 80% from the FT line and hits 67% of his FTs in clutch situation, then he does choke and is not clutch.

Those are generalities but when you compress to too small a sample size it is tough to find anything meaningful.

So I agree that Joe failed in that situation, but it doesn't amount to a choke for me because I expect him to fail in clutch situations - just not to fail at a rate that is higher than his non-clutch failure rate.

Let's take a look at this math then....

If someone shoots 80%, that's 8/10

If someone shoots 80%, that's 4/5

Miss one extra free throw in those situations and it's not clutch

If someone shoots 80% misses one extra free throw than normal, 7/10, now he's 70% bad

If somone shoots 80% misses one extra freet throw than normal, 3/5, now he's 60%, worse

My point is percentage doesn't tell the entire story if someone is clutch....the moment when the makes or misses come makes you clutch or not...just like it's the moments when you make a big shot LEGENDARY OR MEMORABLE

Why don't people celebrate all the circus or HORSE shots Jordan has made over his career instead of the shot from the top of the arc on the Cavs and Craig Ehlo...it's the moment when he made it that makes him clutch....LEGENDARY

Same principle applies to free throws....if he makes it and we win, it was a clutch moment....the opposite happened...he missed, we lost, a choke moment...that doesn't make him a choke artist unless it is a repititve issue...the same thing they used to say about Peyton Manning until he finally won one..(IN THE VOICE OF THE DLP GIRL IN THE COMMERCIAL) It's the Magic, it's the Moments

Edited December 20, 2008 by SmooveHawksFan

[TroyMcClure]

Jeez man you are really good at this. I think people are obviously coming from different places on the word "choke". I will say that even though what Ex is saying sounds a bit off-base, there is some truth to it.

Someone affected by the gravity of the moment will more likely miss badly. Pushing it a touch long is a shooter's miss. It happens.

Joe failed but I don't consider it a choke considering his history and his current clutch free throw %.

I think inferring that Joe is admitting to choking from his quote of "the pressure was on and I missed" is a reach. That is just stating the obvious and owning the failure.

How do any of us know what was going through Joe's mind as he decided to start his motion? It's effing retarded to even begin to say "well, this is clearly a a choke over here but that isn't a choke over there, blah, blah, blah"

All I can say is how would we have all felt if that free throw cost a playoff game or a series? My guess is it would most certainly be considered a choke. I guess, Gary Anderson didn't choke back in the day. No one makes 100%. He was due for a miss, right? That argument doesn't wash for me. Really though, this is just so silly.

And where does all of this KG hate come from? He's not had very much talent around him for much of his career. And saying he's not clutch? Well, someone could say the same thing about Tim Duncan. That would be stupid, though. He's missed a ton at the line with the game in the balance. But he's not a choker. Neither is KG. He's always made plays in the 4th qtr. He's the most skilled big man to ever play the game and he's not retiring anytime soon. We're all going to see just how dominant an un-clutch player can be. This won't be his last ring.

I really would like to know what the mystical paramaters of "clutch situations" are. It's sort of a know it when you see it kind of thing. To try to use stats is just absurd... to me, that is.

[00Blink]

Jeez man you are really good at this. I think people are obviously coming from different places on the word "choke". I will say that even though what Ex is saying sounds a bit off-base, there is some truth to it.

Someone affected by the gravity of the moment will more likely miss badly. Pushing it a touch long is a shooter's miss. It happens.

Joe failed but I don't consider it a choke considering his history and his current clutch free throw %.

I think inferring that Joe is admitting to choking from his quote of "the pressure was on and I missed" is a reach. That is just stating the obvious and owning the failure.

Ok picture this...I don't know how many of you have been in similar situations like this

I have....I played in high school and I played on my unit team and EVERY base team where I was stationed in the Marines and Army

U r at the line....the guys are getting ready to box out for the rebound...people are saying, he's gonna choke, box out, he's gonna choke, get the rebound....you can choke at any given time....do it consistently and you are considered a choke artist....there is a difference between choking and being a choke artist

If a kicker misses the game winning super bowl field goal, is that a choke or just a miss even though he has hit 4/4 from 42, 46, 51, and 38

but he misses from 44....is that just a miss or a choke....it is a choke (It's the magic, it's the moment) the moment when the mishap happens my fellow hawks fans

Edited December 20, 2008 by SmooveHawksFan

[gsuteke]

SmooveHawksFan AKA Poster of the Day

[exodus]

How do any of us know what was going through Joe's mind as he decided to start his motion? It's effing retarded to even begin to say "well, this is clearly a a choke over here but that isn't a choke over there, blah, blah, blah"

So you know it was a choke even though you admit you don't know what was going through Joe's mind? OK.

So he swishes the first one then all of sudden the pressure got to him on the second one? That doesn't even make sense. When he first went to the line he knew he had to make 2 to tie. After the first one he only had to make one to tie and he had the confidence of already making one.

If he was going to choke it would have been far more likely on the first one.

And where does all of this KG hate come from? He's not had very much talent around him for much of his career. And saying he's not clutch?

He had plenty of talent around him last year and was still completely unclutch, a fact lamented regularly by Celtics fans.

I don't see how the talent around him would cause him to shoot 10% worse from the line late in a tight game.

I really would like to know what the mystical paramaters of "clutch situations" are. It's sort of a know it when you see it kind of thing. To try to use stats is just absurd... to me, that is.

Of course you would prefer to say "it is a choke because i say so". That isn't surprising.

82games.com measures how players shoot during the last 5 minutes of games where the team is +/- 5 points. JJ shoots better from the line in that situation(87% last year, 93% this year). KG shot 69% last season at the end of close games, well below his normal average of 80%. How is that not choking?

All I can say is how would we have all felt if that free throw cost a playoff game or a series?

Here was JJ in the playoffs last year. Sorry you missed it.

[00Blink]

SmooveHawksFan AKA Poster of the Day

:worshippy:

Thank you sir, may I have another!!

[BusBoyIsBack]

Using OPs logic and those who agree with OP- I guess this guy was a choke artist too:

[exodus]

Using OPs logic and those who agree with OP- I guess this guy was a choke artist too:

Logic isn't the right word for it.

JJ was 1-3 from the line against GS. i guess he must have been choking really bad.

[Dsinner]

So every missed clutch free throw by a good player is a choke? In other words, you think stars should shoot 100% in those situations? Obviously this is what you are implying and it's ridiculous.

Yes, actually they should. They get paid millions to make a free throw. Do you know why they call it a "free" throw? It's a free shot with no defense. Joe is a shooter. I only played through high school but even now at my age I can hit 30 in a row. It's an easy shot that a "go to guy" should hit. Especially when that shot could tie the world champs with under 3 secs. It was a choke. I want to repeat this, Joe admitted it. Take it up with him.

[Dsinner]

I think that is getting to the heart of the question.

In your mind, is the failure to succeed in a pressure situation the definition of choke?

In my mind, choking is failing to do something that you would do in a non-pressure situation because the pressure gets to you.

To me, if someone shoots 80% from the FT line and hits 80% of his FTs in clutch situations then he probably doesn't choke and is not clutch. He simply maintains his performance.

If someone shoots 80% from the FT line and hit 90% of his FTs in clutch situations, then he doesn't choke and is clutch.

If someone shoots 80% from the FT line and hits 67% of his FTs in clutch situation, then he does choke and is not clutch.

Those are generalities but when you compress to too small a sample size it is tough to find anything meaningful.

So I agree that Joe failed in that situation, but it doesn't amount to a choke for me because I expect him to fail in clutch situations - just not to fail at a rate that is higher than his non-clutch failure rate.

The problem is Joe thinks the same way I do. He said "the pressure was on and I missed". You don't have to be a choke artist to choke. You guys should dig up some interviews with some of the great ones after they did the same thing. You'll hear the word "choke" or "I blew it" countless times.

I can understand where you guys are coming from if Joe had missed a 3 at the buzzer, or a jumper, or anything else where percentages would actually matter. But we're talking about a free throw with under 3 secs left. That is a textbook choke.

[Admin]

It seems like it's the word "choke" that is causing so much confusion in this thread. Whatever word you want to use to describe it, if you miss a FT at the end of the game that could have tied or won then you have failed. Going all the way back to middle school players are trained to make their FTs in the 4th quarter. That's why you (or at least the teams I played on through high school) always shot FTs at the end of practice and sometimes after games. Each and every player should be expected to make those FTs when the game is on the line, especially when they're paid to make them. In this case Joe failed, but I don't think he "choked". To me saying that someone choked means that the pressure got to them and I just don't think that's the case with Joe as I've never seen the pressure get to him so I certainly don't expect that it did in this situation either. He simply failed to make a shot that he should have made and a shot that I'd gladly have him attempt every game for us and I'm confident that 9 times out of 10 he'll come through.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents on this issue for what it's worth.

[Dsinner]

Using OPs logic and those who agree with OP- I guess this guy was a choke artist too:

Again, who said Joe was a choke artists. Stop getting so defensive about our players that you have to put words in peoples posts.

And some need to stop using stats to prove if someone choked. A choke isn't a time frame in a game, it isn't a performance in the 4th quarter, it isn't used to describe if someone comes to play in the big games. It is a single moment. It is a missed shot in a critical situation. Think about it. How is the term generally used. "He choked." That's what you hear the most. "He choked". I've NEVER heard that term used to describe a players game, quarter, or series performance. Never.

"So, how to Marv play last night?"

"He choked"

WTF, that doesn't even make sense. I've only heard it used after a single important play with time expirieng, PERIOD. And that goes for any sport. Really, how is this even a discussion?

For the record I am a HUGE JJ fan.

[exodus]

Yes, actually they should. They get paid millions to make a free throw. Do you know why they call it a "free" throw? It's a free shot with no defense. Joe is a shooter. I only played through high school but even now at my age I can hit 30 in a row. It's an easy shot that a "go to guy" should hit. Especially when that shot could tie the world champs with under 3 secs. It was a choke. I want to repeat this, Joe admitted it. Take it up with him.

Saying they should make them all in that situation shows how far out in left field you are. Nobody has ever done that. How much they are paid is irrelevant nonsense.

Anyone can make a bunch in a row when you are shooting them over and over and over in practice. Even Shaq and Ben Wallace can make them in practice. But when you are playing a game you only get 2 at a time at irregular intervals so it is harder to get into a groove. Not to mention being winded.

I made 29 out of 30 jumpers from the college 3 just messing around one day but there is no way i could ever shoot like that in a game.

Funny how all of you accusing JJ of choking have no explanation as to why he swished the first one but then mysteriously choked on the second. After all it is harder to make 2 shots than to make one. Once he made the first one his task got much easier.

JJ just took responsibility for missing. That is all. You are just reading into it more than is there. He certainly feels like he blew it but that doesn't mean he choked. He missed his first free throw against GS far worse than the one he missed against Boston. Did he choke against GS too?

[Dsinner]

Saying they should make them all in that situation shows how far out in left field you are. Nobody has ever done that. How much they are paid is irrelevant nonsense.

Since you like stats so much, why don't you find out how many times Kobe, Jordan, Bird, etc. etc. have missed a free throw that would have tied or won a game with under 5 secs. I promise it will be rare. But yes Ex, it does happen. Every one of those guys will tell you they SHOULD make it. Joe will tell you he SHOULD have made that shot. And yes their salary is relevant. You think it would have been an issue had Solo missed it? No, we pay JJ max to make that shot.

Anyone can make a bunch in a row when you are shooting them over and over and over in practice. Even Shaq and Ben Wallace can make them in practice. But when you are playing a game you only get 2 at a time at irregular intervals so it is harder to get into a groove.

After all it is harder to make 2 shots than to make one. Once he made the first one his task got much easier.

So which is it, easier to hit them in a row (groove and all) or harder?

So based on some of the arguments what I'm gathering is this...

1) Only a choke artist can actually choke. Everyone else's game winning misses are based on their averages. So if averages are what dictates game winning free throw shots how does one become a choke artists? Do we just randomly decide whom averages don't apply to?

2) We have to know what's going through a players mind to determine if he choked. So why do we even use the term when that task is impossible?

I say we just get rid of that ugly stigma since it's really impossible (to some of you) to actually be able to use it.

[Admin]

Saying they should make them all in that situation shows how far out in left field you are. Nobody has ever done that. How much they are paid is irrelevant nonsense.

Anyone can make a bunch in a row when you are shooting them over and over and over in practice. Even Shaq and Ben Wallace can make them in practice. But when you are playing a game you only get 2 at a time at irregular intervals so it is harder to get into a groove. Not to mention being winded.

I made 29 out of 30 jumpers from the college 3 just messing around one day but there is no way i could ever shoot like that in a game.

Funny how all of you accusing JJ of choking have no explanation as to why he swished the first one but then mysteriously choked on the second. After all it is harder to make 2 shots than to make one. Once he made the first one his task got much easier.

JJ just took responsibility for missing. That is all. You are just reading into it more than is there. He certainly feels like he blew it but that doesn't mean he choked. He missed his first free throw against GS far worse than the one he missed against Boston. Did he choke against GS too?

I believe that they should make all of them and I'm sure the players do as well. Obviously that's not realistic but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't. It sucks that Joe missed that shot but like I said before I'll put him at the FT line any day with the game on the line.

Also to DSinner I've heard people say that a player choked many times based on their entire game or playoff series performance. How many times did we hear about Peja choking in big games when he was with the Kings? How about Dirk in the finals against the Heat? How about ARod choking every series in the playoffs? There are tons and tons of examples of that.

[exodus]

Since you like stats so much, why don't you find out how many times Kobe, Jordan, Bird, etc. etc. have missed a free throw that would have tied or won a game with under 5 secs. I promise it will be rare. But yes Ex, it does happen. Every one of those guys will tell you they SHOULD make it. Joe will tell you he SHOULD have made that shot. And yes their salary is relevant. You think it would have been an issue had Solo missed it? No, we pay JJ max to make that shot.

Bird, Jordan etc have failed plenty of times in that situation because they were in that situation so many times. You can't make them all and they sure didn't. As far as stats go the only stats of clutch free throw shooting that i have seen is from 82games.com and JJ shoots better from the line in the clutch than he does normally.

If what a player is paid had any relevance to foul shooting then Shaq and Ben Wallace would never miss.

1) Only a choke artist can actually choke. Everyone else's game winning misses are based on their averages. So if averages are what dictates game winning free throw shots how does one become a choke artists? Do we just randomly decide whom averages don't apply to?

I guess you don't like looking at history. History can tell you who has a habit of choking. Childress was notorious for choking at the line late in games. He left almost all of them short which is generally what happens when people choke on the line. Sure enough it shows up in the stats.

Childress shot 63% from the line last year at the end of tight games.

http://www.82games.com/0708/07ATL8E.HTM

So which is it, easier to hit them in a row (groove and all) or harder?

This question doesn't even make sense.

you do realize that it is easier to make 1 free throw than it is to make 2, right? After JJ made the first his task got much easier, hence there was less pressure.

Why is it that JJ was able to handle the pressure on the first free throw but then couldn't handle the lesser pressure on the 2nd?

*crickets*

It is always easier to make shots in practice than in a game. Smith can make 3s routinely in practice.

[exodus]

No, we pay JJ max to make that shot.

This comment is so ridiculous i have to make a separate post for it.

First of all money has no relevance to foul shooting. A guy isn't going to suddenly make more free throws just because he is making more money.

Wade shot 75.8% from the line during the first year of his max deal.

Lebron shot 71.2% from the line during the first year of his max deal.

Obviously signing a max deal didn't make them shoot 100% from the line.

Secondly JJ shot 75% from the line his last two years with the Suns. He wasn't signed to a max deal because of his foul shooting.