Smith or Marvin.

[Traceman]

I looked at the All-Star voting today and Daly was 2nd as far as centers in the east. Horford was 6th among centers, Smith 8th among forwards and JJ 10th among guards.

While our starting 5 is good I am not that crazy about having below average quickness in the backcourt coupled with a small front court. A slow paced team with a small frontcourt isn't what i call a recipe for success.

I think the ideal starting 5 has a quick backcourt and a big frontcourt.

I think most people would agree with you that a big frontcourt and a quick backcourt are ideal. However, I think our backcourt makes up for its lack of speed with GREAT skill and smarts. I think our frontcourt makes up for its lack of size with outstanding athleticisim and above average skill.

As for the All Star voting, it is a popularity contest. Period. I doubt that many GMs or coaches out there would take Dalembert over Horford. As for JJ being 10th, what a joke. Luke Ridnour? Calderon? Arenas? Ray Allen? Puh-leaze. JJ should be starting alongside Wade in my opinion although I wouldn't have a problem with Carter or Harris starting either. Still, I'd give the nod to JJ due to team record.

[exodus]

I think most people would agree with you that a big frontcourt and a quick backcourt are ideal. However, I think our backcourt makes up for its lack of speed with GREAT skill and smarts. I think our frontcourt makes up for its lack of size with outstanding athleticisim and above average skill.

As for the All Star voting, it is a popularity contest. Period. I doubt that many GMs or coaches out there would take Dalembert over Horford. As for JJ being 10th, what a joke. Luke Ridnour? Calderon? Arenas? Ray Allen? Puh-leaze. JJ should be starting alongside Wade in my opinion although I wouldn't have a problem with Carter or Harris starting either. Still, I'd give the nod to JJ due to team record.

JJ being 10th among guards is pretty bad. I don't undstand how so many people, including many on this board, don't realize how good he is. Allen is the guy i am worried about getting picked over JJ because of the team he plays on, although if they keep struggling it will help JJ's cause.

I think bogut probably doesn't get as much credit as he deserves. The Bucks have been playing well when healthy. They actually are ranked ahead of us defensively. bogut just went down again though.

My problem with our lineup is that it doesn't fit together that well. A slow it down team with an undersized frontcourt doesn't make that much sense. Smith and Horford have a speed/athleticism advantage over almost everyone they face and playing at a slow pace negates that somewhat.

At the very least we need a backup pg with speed to change the tempo (hopefully Acie can eventually fill that role) and a big man who can adequately defend big post players man to man.

[crimedog]

JJ being 10th among guards is pretty bad. I don't undstand how so many people, including many on this board, don't realize how good he is. Allen is the guy i am worried about getting picked over JJ because of the team he plays on, although if they keep struggling it will help JJ's cause.

I think bogut probably doesn't get as much credit as he deserves. The Bucks have been playing well when healthy. They actually are ranked ahead of us defensively. bogut just went down again though.

My problem with our lineup is that it doesn't fit together that well. A slow it down team with an undersized frontcourt doesn't make that much sense. Smith and Horford have a speed/athleticism advantage over almost everyone they face and playing at a slow pace negates that somewhat.

At the very least we need a backup pg with speed to change the tempo (hopefully Acie can eventually fill that role) and a big man who can adequately defend big post players man to man.

Its hard to tell what would work well and what sort of adjustments Woody is or isn't willing to make to his systems. Offensively, we should push the pace more but we don't. Defensively, we like to switch and we do have the personnel to do it. Would we continue trying to spread the floor with our bigs if we had a guy like Kaman playing for 34mpg? Would we continue to defend the pick and roll the way we do with a big like Bogut on the team?

[NineOhTheRino]

I like Smoove but he sure does do some bone head stuff every now and then.

[thefloydian]

I would trade Horford for a good center, but someone like Perkins isn't good enough. Now that I think about it, we probably couldn't get a good enough center for Horford to make it worth doing.

[Diesel]

Oh, I get that. I just don't think it's a tough choice the Hawks will have to make.

For one, Marvin's free agency may take care of the problem all on its own. If not, then the Hawks still have the MLE, a draft pick, David Andersen's rights, and Claxton's expiring contract to work with.

That may well be true... but if so, then there's no need for us to continue talking about an Impact big for this team. Let's just roll with what we got and hope for the best in free agency.

However, what I have noted is that most people who cry for a big that can produce HAVE NONE in mind and the ones that they do have in mind, they are not willing to make the hard choice of who to send to get that guy. We have to stop this imaginary Dream Center belief that we can get a great C for nothing... or for an expiring contract.

More realistic is getting a good BU to finish off the year.

[Diesel]

I would trade Horford for a good center, but someone like Perkins isn't good enough. Now that I think about it, we probably couldn't get a good enough center for Horford to make it worth doing.

Would you trade Horford for Bogut or Nene?

[gsuteke]

If I were starting a Fantasy team it would be C, Horford, and Smoove

Unfortunately life is complicated though

I can't defend trading Smoove over Marvin in any circumstance. I do understand those who are trying to figure out a way to get Horford and a "legit" Center on the floor at the same time.

That is the common denominator in this discussion.

[crimedog]

More realistic is getting a good BU to finish off the year.

I would LOVE to get a Foster/Pryz/Diop Caliber backup on this team.

I've said before though, I'm not for breaking up the core in a rash "we need to do something to compete" move this season. Provided we can stay on pace for at least 45 wins, I'd only make moves to upgrade the bench or do something if a real no brainer came along (if there was a Yao for Smith offer on the table for example). Otherwise I'd wait til the summer and re-evaluate. Obviously, if ASG has a ceiling for what they'd pay for Starvin Marvin and Sund thinks that we won't be competitive in the market with that ceiling, than by all means lets get-er done, but otherwise I don't want to make a move for a middling center just because he's big as the dudes that people slobber over on this board (Kaman, Bogut, Dalembert, Biedrins) haven't done a particularly good job at not letting their teams suck this season.

[Traceman]

I would LOVE to get a Foster/Pryz/Diop Caliber backup on this team.

I've said before though, I'm not for breaking up the core in a rash "we need to do something to compete" move this season. Provided we can stay on pace for at least 45 wins, I'd only make moves to upgrade the bench or do something if a real no brainer came along (if there was a Yao for Smith offer on the table for example). Otherwise I'd wait til the summer and re-evaluate. Obviously, if ASG has a ceiling for what they'd pay for Starvin Marvin and Sund thinks that we won't be competitive in the market with that ceiling, than by all means lets get-er done, but otherwise I don't want to make a move for a middling center just because he's big as the dudes that people slobber over on this board (Kaman, Bogut, Dalembert, Biedrins) haven't done a particularly good job at not letting their teams suck this season.

We have a winner! If guys like Kaman, Bogut, Dalembert and Biedrins are so impactful, why do their teams all suck? I love Reef but all 4 of those guys remind me of him in that their stats look great but their teams rarely win. On the otherhand, Horford may not fit the mold of a true center but he is without question a winner.

[Diesel]

We have a winner! If guys like Kaman, Bogut, Dalembert and Biedrins are so impactful, why do their teams all suck? I love Reef but all 4 of those guys remind me of him in that their stats look great but their teams rarely win. On the otherhand, Horford may not fit the mold of a true center but he is without question a winner.

Granger, Butler, Bosh, Mayo, Gay, and Durant's teams suck too... does that mean if we could trade Marvin for one of them, you wouldn't want him??

The logic is lacking. Teams suck... and some of them have great players on them. That doesn't take away from the player.

Sheez... go as far as Joe Johnson 2 years ago.

[DrReality]

Don't see any kind of big move being made. Article in AJC today supported that idea but it also said that there is a reality that we have to win now with the contracts of Bibby and JJ, Marvin unknown. Maybe a minor deal?

[crimedog]

Granger, Butler, Bosh, Mayo, Gay, and Durant's teams suck too... does that mean if we could trade Marvin for one of them, you wouldn't want him??

The logic is lacking. Teams suck... and some of them have great players on them. That doesn't take away from the player.

Sheez... go as far as Joe Johnson 2 years ago.

My point was that bad team = bad player, it was more that oftentimes people here seem to think that any big guy that isn't a total stiff is going to be the peice that pushes us over the top, that a big guy automatically leads to more wins. These guys though are often the 3rd best player on teams worse than ours though. Not saying that having them on the team wouldn't help, just that I'd be wary to trade a more talented player on a better team for a guy just because he's tall and then expect the team to get better.

[Traceman]

Granger, Butler, Bosh, Mayo, Gay, and Durant's teams suck too... does that mean if we could trade Marvin for one of them, you wouldn't want him??

The logic is lacking. Teams suck... and some of them have great players on them. That doesn't take away from the player.

Sheez... go as far as Joe Johnson 2 years ago.

All of those players are the best players on their teams. Kaman, Bogut, Dalembert and Biedrins have been like the 3rd best players on their teams AT BEST. HUGE difference.

[Vol4ever]

With our ownership I don't see us making any moves. Sund has no power to make any decisions IMO. The team is winning and has pretty good chemistry, so any deal involving Marvin or Smooth would be a huge deal and shake the team up for the remainder of the season.

Diesel's issue of hate for Marvin is just humorous. If I had to make a decision between the two I would take Marvin. Marvin is a very good shooter, defends, can run the court and can be a good rebounder. Smoove runs the court, is a decent defender, cannot shoot a lick, does not make good decisions on the court, is a great shotblocker. I wholy supported resigning Smoove and would like to keep him and Marvin together on the team. We need to get a good backup defensive rebounding center to come off the bench. The core of this team is in place, just a minor adjustment is needed up front.

[Diesel]

All of those players are the best players on their teams. Kaman, Bogut, Dalembert and Biedrins have been like the 3rd best players on their teams AT BEST. HUGE difference.

Uhm... Mayo and gay play on the same team.. and there's room for argument with Butler and Jaimson and Arenas.

Point is...

I don't think the difference is that great. I think we'd do well with a guy like Biedrins or Kaman.

[Diesel]

With our ownership I don't see us making any moves. Sund has no power to make any decisions IMO. The team is winning and has pretty good chemistry, so any deal involving Marvin or Smooth would be a huge deal and shake the team up for the remainder of the season.

Diesel's issue of hate for Marvin is just humorous. If I had to make a decision between the two I would take Marvin. Marvin is a very good shooter, defends, can run the court and can be a good rebounder. Smoove runs the court, is a decent defender, cannot shoot a lick, does not make good decisions on the court, is a great shotblocker. I wholy supported resigning Smoove and would like to keep him and Marvin together on the team. We need to get a good backup defensive rebounding center to come off the bench. The core of this team is in place, just a minor adjustment is needed up front.

Are you trying to say that the question is ridiculous and brought up out of hate?

I think you need to think a little harder.. It's a real situation.. If we were to get a guy ... Say Biedrins... the question would be asked, who would we be willing to trade... and since these guys are likely it... we have to pick one and plan to build with what's left. If it were just about Marvin, i would have proposed it that way. It's about trying to understand how we are to proceed and if we really want to disrupt what we have for the magical big man.

[Traceman]

Uhm... Mayo and gay play on the same team.. and there's room for argument with Butler and Jaimson and Arenas.

Point is...

I don't think the difference is that great. I think we'd do well with a guy like Biedrins or Kaman.

So what? None of the guys you listed are even the 2nd best players on their teams. From what I saw Sunday, Dalembert might not be a top 5 guy on his team. Iguodala, Brand, Young and Miller are all better than him FOR SURE and I'm not so sure he is better than Lou Williams or Marreese Speights. Kaman? B Diddy, Randolph and arguably Camby. Bogut? Jefferson, Redd. An argument can be made for Biedrins being #2 on GS but do you really think they would trade him for Marvin?

[Diesel]

So what? None of the guys you listed are even the 2nd best players on their teams. From what I saw Sunday, Dalembert might not be a top 5 guy on his team. Iguodala, Brand, Young and Miller are all better than him FOR SURE and I'm not so sure he is better than Lou Williams or Marreese Speights. Kaman? B Diddy, Randolph and arguably Camby. Bogut? Jefferson, Redd. An argument can be made for Biedrins being #2 on GS but do you really think they would trade him for Marvin?

The thing you miss is skill set.

Skill set is more important than wins and losses...

It's more important than a guy's importance to his team.

Sheez... Dalembert might not mean much to Philly, but for us, he'd be a starter with a defined role. The reason being is that he has a skillset that we desperately need. Same is true with Kaman. Now that Camby is in LAC and healthy, the need for Kaman is less.. However, if he were here, not only could we use him, he would automatically be just as important as Bibby.

This is why your argument is lacking. You ignore skillset and you want to argue things that don't matter. Mark Gasol is not a top 2 player on his team.. but if he were on the trading blocks, do you think that we would ignore him for that reason. If we did, we'd be stupid.

Let's be honest...

We don't have anything valuable enough to get Dwight Howard or Pau Gasol.. so we have to do the next best thing... go for some of these guys who might not mean as much to their team, but would mean a lot for us because of their skillset.

[Traceman]

The thing you miss is skill set.

Skill set is more important than wins and losses...

It's more important than a guy's importance to his team.

Sheez... Dalembert might not mean much to Philly, but for us, he'd be a starter with a defined role. The reason being is that he has a skillset that we desperately need. Same is true with Kaman. Now that Camby is in LAC and healthy, the need for Kaman is less.. However, if he were here, not only could we use him, he would automatically be just as important as Bibby.

This is why your argument is lacking. You ignore skillset and you want to argue things that don't matter. Mark Gasol is not a top 2 player on his team.. but if he were on the trading blocks, do you think that we would ignore him for that reason. If we did, we'd be stupid.

Let's be honest...

We don't have anything valuable enough to get Dwight Howard or Pau Gasol.. so we have to do the next best thing... go for some of these guys who might not mean as much to their team, but would mean a lot for us because of their skillset.

If we had Dalembert right now, I'd bring him off the bench behind Horford and Smoove because he's not as good as either of them. In addition, Smoove would be an unmitigated disaster playing SF full time. He can't shoot, he can't handle the ball and playing on the perimeter would take him further away from the things he (usually) does well, block shots and rebound.

As for Kaman, he MIGHT start but if he did, it would be Horford coming off the bench to backup the 4 and the 5 if I were coach.