New Poster here...My 1st post...

[PatheticATLfan]

I have read Hawksquawk since the old forum days and read guys like Diesel and Walter and others whom i am sure i have forgotten. I had never registered to post. Just always content to read the insight, the good and bad info and the arguments that seem to come with all messageboards. After the game in Orlando Friday night, I felt compelled to finnally register and put some thoughts together. First...I have followed the Hawks off and on since 1978. Back in the Drew, Johnson, Rollins, McMillan, Matthews, and Roundfield days. I have seen alot of Hawks games over the years and I'm not gonna sit here and make people think i have seen them all. I HAVE seen my share though and have watched more than i probably should have of this current team that has been put together for the last 4-5 years. First..My post should be titled: Can this team win an NBA Championship? After watching this team exclusively the last 3 years, the answer is an emphatic NO. You have to realize that the time is right to build a dynasty in the NBA. This is not the NBA of the 80s and 90s. Gone are the days of Bird and Magic and MJ? The Celtics are the closest thing to a dynasty right now but they are alot older than the Celtic teams of the 80s. the Lakers are virtually a one man team with Kobe. They have nowhere near the supporting cast of the Bulls of the 90s. The Spurs are getting old. Dallas seems to have missed the boat. Orlando and Cleveland are very good but still unproven. Everybody else seems to be middle of the road or worse. This would have/could have been a good year for the Hawks. The Celtics don't seem to have the fire they had last year but to me are still the team to beat. They will get hot again before its all said and done.

Lets talk about these Hawks. I felt at the end of last year, we needed improvement in areas to contend for the title this year and imo, we did not get what we needed in the off season. We needed a big prescense on the inside and still do not have one. I think we need a PG also. Either Acie is the answer or move on to someone else. Bibby is decent but is a liability on the defensive end. I can't figure why Woody has limited Acie's minutes. Look at Jameer Nelson of the Magic? Sometimes a guy has to be given a vote of confidence. Woody has never given Acie one.

I think we may have made a mistake matching the offer given to Josh Smith. I watch this guy and think...unbelievable athletic ability, but I just don't think he will ever get it. He is a human turnover and everytime he lines up a 3 ball, I want to throw a brick through my TV. Josh doesn't realize he is open for a reason. Add to that he is the biggest whiner on the floor every night. Josh thinks he should get the same call MJ used to get. Often times arguing with an official while his man is scoring on the other end. It makes me sick. He has to be the most immature player in the NBA.

Now Joe Johnson. I love JJ...BUT...JJ' s not a leader. He doesn't get in people's faces when they do something stupid(ALA Josh). JJ is a great NBA player, but it puzzles me when he dissappears for 3-4 games at a time. JJ absolutely looks like he has no fun playing this game. Maybe he wants out of ATL? Who knows? Just show me some emotion every now and then so i'll know you are alive.

Marvin Williams. Whew! What can we say good about Marvin? He has improved since his rookie season but Marvin could onle get better when he came into the league. His defense is goos at times but MW's tools are limited. He is not a shut down guy on defense. His range is limited to around 18 ft. His driving has gottne better but he still can't get to the line enough. Speaking of the line,,his FT % has been down this year.

Big Al. He's going through a Sophmore skid alittle bit. He hasn't shown up in the boxscore sometimes and has missed some games this year. Whats most alarming to me about Al is that against Dwight Howard and the Magic on Wed. and Fri., he looked like a boy playing against a man. He was completely over matched against Dwight. He couldn't block him out. He couldn't force him to catch the ball out of the paint. The Man-child did what he wanted to Big Al. It was complete domination from beginning to end and you could see it on Al's face. Befiore those 2 games, I really thought Al could hold his own against anybody(including KG) in the league.

Mike Woodson...I think Mike has done all he can with this team. They are either tuning him out now or they ain't buying what he's selling anymore. Mike's philosophy is sound. Defense is critical in today's NBA. For whatever reason though, its not translating on the floor. I still have a hard time figuring what Mike is doing on the offensive end? Are we reallt asupposed to shoot as many 3s as we do? It may be time for Mike to go, but I have NO idea who can coach this bunch.

In closing this first post out..My opinion of the Hawks is this: We are a team of SFs and one PF. We shoot way to many 3s and have no inside game. The best this team will ever do is between 40 and 45 wins. We may win a playoff series every now and then but the road will close after that. We cannot win a 7 game series against the elite teams. I'm not sure we can win ANY 7 game series without home court advantage.

We are what we are. Middle of the road. We will not get better without MAJOR TURNOVER.

My Opinion:

Its time to drop back and punt.

Thanks for reading.

[Admin]

Welcome aboard and that's quite a detailed first post. My opinion is that we don't need a major turnover, we just need to make some minor adjustments although I do think we need to do something about the 4-5 Smith/Horford combo as I don't believe we'll ever be serious contenders with that pairing.

As much as I have defended Woody and believe that he is an NBA quality head coach it might be time for us to replace him just to see if that can get us back on the right path. Personally I believe we have more of an issue with some of the players and bringing in a new coach probably won't solve that, but I'm willing to take a chance.

[h2t]

Nice post.

I guess i agree with your main point to an extent...I don't think we'll ever win a championship with this team but i do think we'll make it to the Eastern finals a couple times.

I think it's too early to say whether we made a mistake keeping Josh and he frustrates me more than anyone but I think in the end it'll be seen as a good move.

Yes JJ is no MJ or Kobe when it comes to leadership but i'm not gonna rag on him for being calm and composed. And saying he doesn't like playing the game and wants out of ATL because he doesn't show any emotion is pretty lol.

I have nothing bad to say about Marvin. He's solid defensively and much improved in a lot of areas of his game. I think most people would be happy with his progress if he weren't the #3 pick and always being compared to CP3.

Al has no chance against Howard. Expecting a PF to hang in with the best center in the game is a little optimistic.

All Woodson knows is defense and we continually suck it up on that end of the floor. He needs to go.

[PatheticATLfan]

Nice post.

I guess i agree with your main point to an extent...I don't think we'll ever win a championship with this team but i do think we'll make it to the Eastern finals a couple times.

I think it's too early to say whether we made a mistake keeping Josh and he frustrates me more than anyone but I think in the end it'll be seen as a good move.

Yes JJ is no MJ or Kobe when it comes to leadership but i'm not gonna rag on him for being calm and composed. And saying he doesn't like playing the game and wants out of ATL because he doesn't show any emotion is pretty lol.

I have nothing bad to say about Marvin. He's solid defensively and much improved in a lot of areas of his game. I think most people would be happy with his progress if he weren't the #3 pick and always being compared to CP3.

Al has no chance against Howard. Expecting a PF to hang in with the best center in the game is a little optimistic.

All Woodson knows is defense and we continually suck it up on that end of the floor. He needs to go.

Thanks for the kind words. I probably was a little tough on JJ but he is supposed to be our leader and i would love to see him get in Smith's face every now and then. Don't get me wrong! He is a great player. A throwback to the 70s NBA. Very smooth and polished and if we had a team of JJs we would be ALOT better.

As far as Josh is concerned...I give up with this guy. He has no idea what his role is on the team and either he doesn't care or he doesn't listen to what Woody wants out of him. I'll bet if you got an honest answer out of Woody he would tell you that Josh is the most frustrating player on the team.

Yes Al is a PF but he plays the center position on our team and if thats the position he plays, then he has to come up big against the big men in this league. If he allows centers to dominate him on the boards, we have NO SHOT at winning these big games. Especially on the road.

As for Marvin, he is the number 3 pick and there is no changing that. The question is..Will he ever live up to that? If he doesn't he will be considered a bust. I think he is capable of being very good. Work on his jumper from outside of 18 ft. He is a little better this year. Once defenses have to start respecting him outside, then his drive will get alot better and FT attempts will go up.

I still think this team will have to be shook up to get a chance at a championship. We need Acie to step up and be our PG or draft or trade for one. Bibby to me plays more like a number 2. Also...not sure of the numbers(i'm sure someone on here can help with this) but Bibby has to be shooting alot lower percentage on the road than at home.

I'm not totally down on Woody. Not sure what we are doing offensively. His staple is defense and lately that hasn't been there either. Have these guys got so comfortable with him, that they aren't listening anymore?

[tonegully]

Fire Woody. He has lost the players and he can not control them or he is scared.

[AtLaS]

As far as Josh is concerned...I give up with this guy.

I just don't understand all the Smith hate. He's shooting a career high FG%, his turnovers are down, and we are a top 10 defense with him in the lineup. I think people just look at the bad he does and ignore everything else. His FT shooting needs to improve, though.

There is nothing wrong with whining to the officials. All the great teams do it, and they get calls. You think Smith whines? Just watch the Spurs and Duncan going at it with the refs, or the Celtics or Lakers. Our team looks like a team full of mutes compared to them.

[Gray Mule]

Woody is bull headed. Stubborn. Talks of changing things, using more players.

This sounds good. It lasts until game time. Then he "forgets" to rotate players.

Because of sickness, the flu, and injury, Horford's, he has used different players

and in the Orlando blowout he did use everyone.

Some Hawks, and Josh seems to be the head man in this group, listen but don't really

hear. Defense and rebounding is the main focus of Woody's plan for these Hawks.

Yet, we see where our team has recently "forgot" how to do this.

When we see our opponent's PG grab not one, but several rebounds over a period

of several games, we begin to question, how can this be. Not grabbing that long

rebound. Being among the "trees" under the basket and claiming the ball.

This Hawks team is still somewhat immature. Here again, Josh is the worst example

of this, as you have pointed out.

Good post and welcome to Hawksquawk. Don't be a stranger.

[AtLaS]

Big Al. He's going through a Sophmore skid alittle bit. He hasn't shown up in the boxscore sometimes and has missed some games this year. Whats most alarming to me about Al is that against Dwight Howard and the Magic on Wed. and Fri., he looked like a boy playing against a man. He was completely over matched against Dwight.

This is just not a good argument for Horford not playing Center. In the 2 games against Orlando, Dwight averaged 19.5 and 14.5, which is less points then his season average and 0.8 more rebounds. He does that to everyone, that's why he's the best center in the game.

[PatheticATLfan]

I just don't understand all the Smith hate. He's shooting a career high FG%, his turnovers are down, and we are a top 10 defense with him in the lineup. I think people just look at the bad he does and ignore everything else. His FT shooting needs to improve, though.

There is nothing wrong with whining to the officials. All the great teams do it, and they get calls. You think Smith whines? Just watch the Spurs and Duncan going at it with the refs, or the Celtics or Lakers. Our team looks like a team full of mutes compared to them.

His bad seems to be critical bad. A stupid foul or a TO at the absolute worst time. Prime example: The Dallas game earlier this year. Josh gets a critical steal inside of a minute to play and then follows that up with a costly TO at the other end. The man can just not handle the ball without falling all over himself. The best way I can describe Smith's ball handling is it looks like he is dribbling inside of a funhouse. Its like his equilibrium is off or something. Its very strange how such a great athlete constantly gets it stolen, dribbles off his leg or hip or foot . Something strange and out of place always seems to happen when Josh handles the ball. Also...When Josh gets Duncan's credibility in the league, then he may get a call. I think all referees look at him like a spoiled child. You know what you do with a spoiled child? Smack them with a T and send them to their room. Well at least thats probably what NBA Refs do with their kids.

[exodus]

His bad seems to be critical bad. A stupid foul or a TO at the absolute worst time. Prime example: The Dallas game earlier this year. Josh gets a critical steal inside of a minute to play and then follows that up with a costly TO at the other end. The man can just not handle the ball without falling all over himself. The best way I can describe Smith's ball handling is it looks like he is dribbling inside of a funhouse. Its like his equilibrium is off or something. Its very strange how such a great athlete constantly gets it stolen, dribbles off his leg or hip or foot . Something strange and out of place always seems to happen when Josh handles the ball. Also...When Josh gets Duncan's credibility in the league, then he may get a call. I think all referees look at him like a spoiled child. You know what you do with a spoiled child? Smack them with a T and send them to their room. Well at least thats probably what NBA Refs do with their kids.

As frustrating as Smith is, he has a lot of talent and heart. This team doesn't have enough talent to be able to trade Smith and get back less value in return. I would try a new coach before i would give up on Smith.

[AHF]

As frustrating as Smith is, he has a lot of talent and heart. This team doesn't have enough talent to be able to trade Smith and get back less value in return. I would try a new coach before i would give up on Smith.

I agree 100%.

[PatheticATLfan]

As frustrating as Smith is, he has a lot of talent and heart. This team doesn't have enough talent to be able to trade Smith and get back less value in return. I would try a new coach before i would give up on Smith.

I really hate to say this but I think Josh is lazy. I don't think he works hard enough to take his game to another level. You can't have that kind of athletic ability without getting better than what he has after 4+ years in the league. Look at Dominique Wilkins after 4 plus years. When he improved his outside J, he became a force to be reckoned with in the NBA and he wasn't as good as Josh from the start. I think Josh's problem is he's content on getting by on pure talent alone. Sad to say but as much talent as Josh has, he will probably have a serviceable career in the NBA with just that alone. Just think what he could accomplish if he would put in the hours to become a better midrange shooter, better ball handler, better defender, better LEADER. To me, Josh Smith is at a crossroads in his career. Is he gonna be a superstar like Carter, Garnett, Jefferson or even Stoudamire? Or is he gonna be a journeyman role player that can give you decent minutes and get the occasional WOW from a crowd? I can tell you which way I think he's heading.

Edited January 12, 2009 by PatheticATLfan

[AtLaS]

I really hate to say this but I think Josh is lazy. I don't think he works hard enough to take his game to another level.

Every summer we hear more quotes about how hard Smith works than anyone else on the team, except for this past offseason because everyone was talking about our status on resigning him. JJ predicted Smith's breakout year after his first year with the team, and it happened..

You can't have that kind of athletic ability without getting better than what he has after 4+ years in the league.

Actually you can. I could name 20 players off the top of my head that had/have the type of athleticism that Smith has and are much worse players. Athletic ability only gets you so far. Ask James White, Gerald Green, Darius Miles, Tyrus Thomas, Hakim Warrick, Jamario Moon, etc.. I could go on and on. Smith is a midrange jumpshot away from being a dangerous offensive player and 20+ ppg scorer. I think he will eventually master it, remember he's still extremely young and has worked with Calvin Murphy during the past 2 offseasons.

Trading him now could prove a vital mistake, especially given his impact on our defense. We are almost 10 ppg better on defense with him in the lineup. When he was hurt we went 6-6 and routinely gave up over 100. Since he returned we are again a top 10 defense, save the last 3 terrible games of course.

Or is he gonna be a journeyman role player that can give you decent minutes and get the occasional WOW from a crowd? I can tell you which way I think he's heading.

Josh has already proven at age 23 that he's much more than a journeyman role player in this league. I don't know where you came up with that.

[PatheticATLfan]

"Josh has already proven at age 23 that he's much more than a journeyman role player in this league. I don't know where you came up with that."

I said where he's heading. Not his statis right now. If Josh can't stop the stupid plays, Silly turnovers, immature whining along with eventually developing an outside shot, he will turn into a journeyman role player in the mold of Joe Smith.

[exodus]

I really hate to say this but I think Josh is lazy. I don't think he works hard enough to take his game to another level. You can't have that kind of athletic ability without getting better than what he has after 4+ years in the league. Look at Dominique Wilkins after 4 plus years. When he improved his outside J, he became a force to be reckoned with in the NBA and he wasn't as good as Josh from the start. I think Josh's problem is he's content on getting by on pure talent alone. Sad to say but as much talent as Josh has, he will probably have a serviceable career in the NBA with just that alone. Just think what he could accomplish if he would put in the hours to become a better midrange shooter, better ball handler, better defender, better LEADER. To me, Josh Smith is at a crossroads in his career. Is he gonna be a superstar like Carter, Garnett, Jefferson or even Stoudamire? Or is he gonna be a journeyman role player that can give you decent minutes and get the occasional WOW from a crowd? I can tell you which way I think he's heading.

Huh? First of all Nique went to college. Smith didn't. Secondly Nique averaged 17 ppg as a rookie, shooting 49%. Smith does not have the talent Nique had.

Smith has always worked hard on his game. His problem is that he wants to be an all around player and he doesn't have the talent to be an all around player. He just needs to accept his limitations and focus on the things he can actually do.

He is also clearly still hurting. He was noticably grimacing after a drive to the basket today.

Saying he is lazy is pretty ridiculous considering how many times he has run down opponsing players on the fast break and blocked their shots. He has consistently been the first player back on d since he has been here.

[SuperSavvyNation]

Huh? First of all Nique went to college. Smith didn't. Secondly Nique averaged 17 ppg as a rookie, shooting 49%. Smith does not have the talent Nique had.

Smith has always worked hard on his game. His problem is that he wants to be an all around player and he doesn't have the talent to be an all around player. He just needs to accept his limitations and focus on the things he can actually do.

He is also clearly still hurting. He was noticably grimacing after a drive to the basket today.

Saying he is lazy is pretty ridiculous considering how many times he has run down opponsing players on the fast break and blocked their shots. He has consistently been the first player back on d since he has been here.

You hit the nail on the head Exodus. I was scrolling down to post exactly that. Josh's problem is he wants to do more than he can. He wants to prove that he is that budding superstar. Unfortunately for the Hawks, he also understands that to get to that level he has to add another dimension to is offense....hence, the long range clankers, the bumbling full court drives, etc.

It's not bad to want to be an all-around player. However, it is extremely selfish of Smith to go about it in the way that he has. Improve your game, fine. But not at the team's expense. I would love to know what goes on behind closed doors between Josh and the coaches.

We all know what Jsmoove does well. Those things are enough to make this team very formidable. However, Josh has yet to be honest with himself about his limitations. I don't know what it will take for him to grow up and maximize his strengths while miniminzing his weaknesses. It seems simple, yet he is bullheaded enough to make it seem like he may never embrace this.

[tonegully]

Like i have been saying since ive been on the board.

ONCE JOSH LEARNS, KNOWS, AND PLAYS HIS ROLE. WE WILL BE A BETTER TEAM.

[PatheticATLfan]

Huh? First of all Nique went to college. Smith didn't. Secondly Nique averaged 17 ppg as a rookie, shooting 49%. Smith does not have the talent Nique had.

Smith has always worked hard on his game. His problem is that he wants to be an all around player and he doesn't have the talent to be an all around player. He just needs to accept his limitations and focus on the things he can actually do.

He is also clearly still hurting. He was noticably grimacing after a drive to the basket today.

Saying he is lazy is pretty ridiculous considering how many times he has run down opponsing players on the fast break and blocked their shots. He has consistently been the first player back on d since he has been here.

First.....maturity comes in different packages. Sure Nique went to college but when he came into the

NBA he DID not have as much talent as Smith does right now. Nique was brought into the Hawks as the go to guy. Atlanta traded their go-to guy John Drew ..along with Freeman Williams and cash to Utah for the rights to sign Nique. When Dominique came into the league as a rookie, all he could do was dunk, rebound a little and drive. He wasn't a defensive stopper by no means like Smith. He wasn't a shot blocker like Smith. He couldn't shoot very well outside of 8 ft. His FT shooting wasn't anything to get excited about either. He was however given free reign to shoot by Kevin Loughery. As a result his numbers didn't look to bad his rookie season but he was far from as polished as Josh is now. I will say that he could handle the ball a little better than Josh does. Josh could go 17 a game right now, but I doubt we would win with him in that role.

I'm not saying Josh is lazy during a game although the whining for a call and not getting back on D is a little grinding at times. What i am saying is this....If Josh wants to be a go to guy and a player to be talked about and feared in the mold of James, Kobe and Wade, then he needs to be in the gym 5-6 hours a day in the off season and at least a couple hours a day on game day and his off days during the season. He should be out there shooting for a couple hours before a game. You really have to work at it to develop a jumper and I just don't think Josh does. Bird used to shoot 200-300 a jumpers a day before a game. Ray Allen works excessively on his shot. Never thinking he has perfected it and always fine tuning. When Josh got hurt earlier this year and came back, it looked like he hadn't picked up a basketball since before the injury. Even with a high ankle sprain you should be on the court. I played HS ball with a guy who tore an ACL and used go shoot for hours on one leg so he wouldn't get to rusty. I remember when Doc Rivers played with Atlanta and broke his shooting hand. He became a much better left handed player after that because he still got out there and practiced with his good hand. Great players won't let injuries set them back. I'm just telling you what i think I see. The sky is still the limit for Josh but its time to grow up first, stop making excuses second...and third look in the mirror and be honest with yourself . WORK HARD. Get better or people may just stop talking about you altogether. Being successful comes at a price and right now I just don't think Josh is paying that price.

[exodus]

As a result his numbers didn't look to bad his rookie season but he was far from as polished as Josh is now.

Please. Nique averaged 27 ppg in his 3rd season. He had way more talent then Smith.

I don't see how you can say Smith is more polished than Nigue was and say this at the same time:

The man can just not handle the ball without falling all over himself. The best way I can describe Smith's ball handling is it looks like he is dribbling inside of a funhouse. Its like his equilibrium is off or something. Its very strange how such a great athlete constantly gets it stolen, dribbles off his leg or hip or foot

Smith's game isn't polished at all. That is his problem.

If Josh wants to be a go to guy and a player to be talked about and feared in the mold of James, Kobe and Wade, then he needs to be in the gym 5-6 hours a day in the off season and at least a couple hours a day on game day and his off days during the season.

No. Smith simply doesn't have the talent to be a go to guy. He is going to have to accept that to reach his potential.

When i went to the Hawks-Wizards game earlier this year I got there early and Smith was working on his shot. This was before he came back from his injury. The problem is that he was taking an abundance of 3s. He shouldn't be shooting 3s at all. He should never shoot outside 20 feet.

[Diesel]

Welcome to posting on Hawksquawk.