Dose Of Reality

[coachx]

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/s...age_tab_newstab

Dose of reality for those who like to call the ASG cheap is in the article above. My personal thoughts are below.

I see Belkin as the one being cheap. The rest of the ASG fought to bring JJ here on a max deal for a player with his years of service. Too rich for Belkins blood. Now Belkin is trying to raise the value of a franchise that has not made money any 5 years while the economy is in a recession........

The ASG also approved the trade of several expiring deals for Bibby, the highest paid contract on the team.....which raised the payroll for the this season.

Without those two things we may still be like the Grizz trying to build through the draft with no vets to show them the way. The Grizz will be good one day but that day is not today, nor was it yesterday, and likely not next season either.

Thank You ASG for JJ and Bibby.........without them NBA fans in the ATL would be wearing bags over their heads rather then cheering for a home court playoff advantage ! The playoff ride last year and the season the Hawks are having this year has been much more fun to follow then the 9 previous NBA season in the ATL.

Edited January 28, 2009 by coachx

[Atlsportfanz]

The pessimist in me sees both Bibby and Marvin leaving after this season because our ownership will want to cost expenses. And thereby making the Hawks into a sorry product that no fan will really care about.

I truly hope I'm wrong but I still doubt it.

[Packfill]

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/s...age_tab_newstab

Dose of reality for those who like to call the ASG cheap is in the article above. My personal thoughts are below.

I see Belkin as the one being cheap. The rest of the ASG fought to bring JJ here on a max deal for a player with his years of service. Too rich for Belkins blood. Now Belkin is trying to raise the value of a franchise that has not made money any 5 years while the economy is in a recession........

The ASG also approved the trade of several expiring deals for Bibby, the highest paid contract on the team.....which raised the payroll for the this season.

Without those two things we may still be like the Grizz trying to build through the draft with no vets to show them the way. The Grizz will be good one day but that day is not today, nor was it yesterday, and likely not next season either.

Thank You ASG for JJ and Bibby.........without them NBA fans in the ATL would be wearing bags over their heads rather then cheering for a home court playoff advantage ! The playoff ride last year and the season the Hawks are having this year has been much more fun to follow then the 9 previous NBA season in the ATL.

I think the real issue is that the Spirit Group (minus Belkin) just don't have enough money to keep operating the teams with these loses. They just aren't collectively as wealthy as some other owners.

Also, it is my understanding that Belkin didn't have a problem with the contract for JJ, but rather giving up the draft picks.

[AHF]

Also, it is my understanding that Belkin didn't have a problem with the contract for JJ, but rather giving up the draft picks.

That is unclear. The ASG has said straight out that Belkin fought their efforts to raise payroll and opposed the JJ trade because he didn't want to pay. Belkin has said he would have been happy to pay JJ but didn't want to include the picks. So you can trust Belkin and assume he would have been happy to pay but thought we weren't maximizing our leverage or trust the ASG and assume Belkin knew we needed to include the picks in the deal and put up a fight to tank the deal. Nobody really knows. All we know is that when 2/3 of the ownership approved the trade, Belkin seized control of the franchise, tried to nix the deal, and didn't extend a max offer to JJ during his brief time in charge.

[Diesel]

The truth is:

*Belkin is right, the franchise value has increased. Simply by having more nationally televised games, the revenue has increased. Not to mention Jerseys of JJ, Smoove, HOrf, and now Bibbs.

*ASG are cheap. Even though they spent money for JJ, it was money they had to spend in order to make the franchise better. We couldn't continue going after Kevin Willis and Kenny Anderson's for the vet max. Their cheapness is seen in Speedy. We could have traded Speedy long ago, we keep him because Insurance pays his bill. Chillz... Our handling of FA for the last two years have been poor. Signing Rio and Solo are not really big signings. However, I don't blame them for being cheap. You have to look at it from a money standpoint... they are not as rich as some owners (cuban, Indy's owners, PTL's owner) they have to treat this as more than a hobby but an investment. Until they can bring Ted Turner in the fold and loose Belkin, there can be no real deals.

*Belkin would have kept this team on the cheap and probably moved it. Belkin is a shrewd investor.. that's corporate lingo which really mean he's cheap and smart. Belkin didn't fall out over a draft pick. IF so, he would want to be back in NOW that JJ is an allstar and now that the draft picks and Diaw wasn't shown to be much compared to JJ. He fell out with ownership because he's cheap. Belkin's dream was to be an NBA owner because aside from being a game you love, it's lucrative. He was a part of the Boston Celtics org for a while and he saw how they made lots of money. He even saw how money flowed even when the payroll was down. He wanted to do the same with the Hawks. Keep us hyped about the next rookie and leave us in the hands of a GM who is just trying stuff. I don't think Belk shed one tear over our underacheiving Rookies. They keep us in the lottery and that keep fans coming out. So long as you have the "young team" label, you have no reason to pay anybody vet money. That was Belk's plan. If he got the team today.. he would let JJ's contract run out, trade Marvin for first rounder, and not resign Bibs. He'd keep Smoove because Smoove is a draw.

[coachx]

The truth is:

No, the truth is that is your opinion. We got what, one nationally televised game this season ? I really doubt the merchandise sales are near as high as you think due to the economy. People are not paying a $100 for jerseys this year like they did in years past. Those luxuries are being cut out of 90% of peoples' budgets.

When buying a business the first thing you look at is the financial records. You cannot sale a business that has not made a buck in years, much less losing millions and not even breaking even. In today's market place the Hawks are virtually not sellable (if that is even a word). Its not like they have a mystic like the Cubs, Yankees, Lakers, or Celtics.

I really doubt billionaires are looking to buy the Atlanta Hawks right now. Especially with the hit their investments have taken over the last year to shrink their equity.

I also doubt a corporation can explain the purchase of a NBA franchise, not named the Lakers b/c Hollywood will alwayse have money to burn, to their shareholders as a way to increase their annual profits for shareholders.

My opinion, is that in today's market, it is impossible to come up with a "market value" for this franchise, agreeable to both sides, when they're are no other buyers..........Builders are selling $500,000 homes (the cost to build) for $300,000 b/c that is all the market place will offer.

My opinion is that today's economy has put the ASG in a position of stength when it comes to establishing the franchise's market price, especially considering hockey in Atlanta is dead.

Edited January 28, 2009 by coachx

[coachx]

The truth is:

*Belkin is right, the franchise value has increased. Simply by having more nationally televised games, the revenue has increased. Not to mention Jerseys of JJ, Smoove, HOrf, and now Bibbs.

What is your in head as "truth" is much different from what is truly reality. You also seem to neglect that the Thrashers are part of this and they are probably what is bringing the books down so low.

The truth is the Atlanta Hawks have 1 nationally televised game this season b/c that is mandated by the NBA. NBA TV should not count since less then 5% of households actually get that channel.

The truth is the Hawks do not have a top 15 selling jersey either !

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/568...ey_sales_top_4/

I doubt the Hawks have a jersey in the top 30 but can't find any proof so I can't call that truth.

We are not the Chicago Cubs. We do not have a national fan base. We do not sell out every game. I don't think there is buyer in todays market who will pay what Belkin "thinks" these franchises (Hawks / Thrashers) are worth.

[DrReality]

Probably been said before but you wonder if Belkin is trying to run the ASG out of money by making this thing drawn out.

I like the position that the economy is in their favor . . . . but that remains to be seen.

[DrReality]

Corndogs?

[AHF]

Probably been said before but you wonder if Belkin is trying to run the ASG out of money by making this thing drawn out.

With this economy it may be different, but generally the more time that passes the more valuable a franchise will be. At a minimum, Belkin pays nothing and potentially reaps the benefits of that "maturation" of the investment as this drags along. He also knows that the rest of the owners shouldering the entire burden could lose everything they are putting into this if the court ends up constructing a ruling that is substantially similar to the last one (the last trial court -- not appellate court -- ruling). It is a shame they couldn't complete this buyout years ago so we could all move on.

[Diesel]

What is your in head as "truth" is much different from what is truly reality. You also seem to neglect that the Thrashers are part of this and they are probably what is bringing the books down so low.

The truth is the Atlanta Hawks have 1 nationally televised game this season b/c that is mandated by the NBA. NBA TV should not count since less then 5% of households actually get that channel.

The truth is the Hawks do not have a top 15 selling jersey either !

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/568...ey_sales_top_4/

I doubt the Hawks have a jersey in the top 30 but can't find any proof so I can't call that truth.

We are not the Chicago Cubs. We do not have a national fan base. We do not sell out every game. I don't think there is buyer in todays market who will pay what Belkin "thinks" these franchises (Hawks / Thrashers) are worth.

No.. the truth is that things are better than Years before. For instance, we have had more than the 1 Nationally televised games on the books. We have been voted on by the NBATV crowd to be on their station twice already. So there's a bit of a national following following our strong playoff appearance. That's the truth. Somehow I thought we had 2 National games on ESPN/TNT...I have to check that, but that's still better than the ZERO National games that we have had for the past 8 years. The truth is that I'm willing to bet that we make more money at the game this year than we have in any of the previous 5 years. That's the truth.

For you to think that this team is not doing better financially than we were when Belkin and Company Bought it... is laughable.

[coachx]

For you to think that this team is not doing better financially than we were when Belkin and Company Bought it... is laughable.

I never said that. Now your making things up and putting words in my morth. If I said that quote me saying that some where. That is just wrong !

Sure the Hawks are doing better now then when the ASG bougth them but the Thrashers are not and the books verify that. Its a balancing act between the two franchises.

Your still missing the simple truth that the Thrashers are in this too !

At first the Thrashers were the profitable franchise. They were the hot new team in Atlanta filled with young studs and jumped in the playoffs. Then when the the Thrashers fell off the face of the earth the Hawks rose up.

This big picture is not just the Hawks, 1/2 the picture is the Thrashers. The worst NHL franchise in hockey.

You are only seeing half the picture !

[Diesel]

I never said that. Now your making things up and putting words in my morth. If I said that quote me saying that some where. That is just wrong !

Doesn't your whole argument against the Hawks having increased in value state just that? Why should I need a direct quote when you come out guns a blazing against that one point? Point blank, either you agree or you disagree... However, don't pull a John Kerry and say you disagreed before but you agree now...

:magnifier:

Now as for the thrashers, you're right. I didn't consider the thrasher. Why? I didn't consider the Philips Arena Either... and neither did you.

Still, the original sell of all three entities was $208 Million. Belkin's total stake in the purchase was 70 Million. Actually at $208 Million, ASG got a great deal... The team's value given by Forbes is 306 Million. That's more than doubled what it was in 2004. That's just the Hawks. That doesn't consider how much they get on Philips Arena. Just to start.. for the next 13 years, Philips will give ASG 9 Million on naming rights... that has to help.. and we haven't even talked about the league's revenue sharing.

[coachx]

Doesn't your whole argument against the Hawks having increased in value state just that? Why should I need a direct quote when you come out guns a blazing against that one point? Point blank, either you agree or you disagree... However, don't pull a John Kerry and say you disagreed before but you agree now...

:magnifier:

Now as for the thrashers, you're right. I didn't consider the thrasher. Why? I didn't consider the Philips Arena Either... and neither did you.

Still, the original sell of all three entities was $208 Million. Belkin's total stake in the purchase was 70 Million. Actually at $208 Million, ASG got a great deal... The team's value given by Forbes is 306 Million. That's more than doubled what it was in 2004. That's just the Hawks. That doesn't consider how much they get on Phillips' Arena. Just to start.. for the next 13 years, Philip's will give ASG 9 Million on naming rights... that has to help.. and we haven't even talked about the league's revenue sharing.

So now I'm John Kerry ? Your one calling your opinion "The TRUTH." Your the one puting words in peoples mouth they nevery said. What gives here ?

The league revenue sharing should be reflected in the financial #'s released to the public b/c of the court battle as should the $9 mill in naming rights from Phillips Electronics. You think the IRS would let them get away with leaving that out of their financials ? Remember ENRON ?

My argument is that these franchises are not worth today what Belkin thinks they are worth. Especially with the 2009 economic climate compared to the 02001 -08 market climate when everything just went up, up, up, up............To create a true market price you need a buyer willing to pay the appraised price. In today's market that will be tougher this year then last year, in my opinion. Belkin will try to arbitrate a value ignoring market conditions and probably minimizing the financial books showing no profit since the day #1 (If the court allows him to choose the arbitrator).

I never said they are not worth more today then the day they were bought. My main point is that the 2009 market conditions should work favorably for the ASG............Belkin would have been in a better position to settle this thing last year then this year.

Your argument seems to be that increase in jersey sales, since last year, and 1 or 2 additional nationally televised games trump's market changes and continued financial losses and that the franchise is worth more today then at this time in 2008.

Just 2 different opinions. My opinion is that 90% of businesses (that are not new start up businesses) are worth less today then they were 1 year ago and I think the Hawks fit in that 90%. Maybe I'm wrong but I do think the instability in today's market conditions will make this very difficult to arbitrate...........much more difficult then this time last year.

What gets me is that you refer to your opinion as "THE TRUTH" and other people's opinions are taken out of context by you and then called laughable once you take them out of context and re-worded by you to your liking.

Edited January 29, 2009 by coachx

[coachx]

Doesn't your whole argument against the Hawks having increased in value state just that? Why should I need a direct quote when you come out guns a blazing against that one point?

.

Now your playing with words again. You said that my opinion that Hawks have not increased in value since the day the ASG purchased the 2 clubs is laughable. Then refered to your opinion is "THE TRUTH."

That was never said nor implied that they have not increased in value, at all, from day 1 of their new venture.

That is Diesel playing Diesel games to over simplify and twist words around. Why I continue to play with you, I have no idea.

Edited January 29, 2009 by coachx

[Diesel]

My argument is that these franchises are not worth today what Belkin thinks they are worth. Especially with the 2009 economic climate compared to the 02001 -08 market climate when everything just went up, up, up, up............To create a true market price you need a buyer willing to pay the appraised price. In today's market that will be tougher this year then last year, in my opinion. Belkin will try to arbitrate a value ignoring market conditions and probably minimizing the financial books showing no profit since the day #1 (If the court allows him to choose the arbitrator).

I never said they are not worth more today then the day they were bought. My main point is that the 2009 market conditions should work favorably for the ASG............Belkin would have been in a better position to settle this thing last year then this year.

Your argument seems to be that increase in jersey sales, since last year, and 1 or 2 additional nationally televised games trump's market changes and continued financial losses and that the franchise is worth more today then at this time in 2008.

Just 2 different opinions. My opinion is that 90% of businesses (that are not new start up businesses) are worth less today then they were 1 year ago and I think the Hawks fit in that 90%. Maybe I'm wrong but I do think the instability in today's market conditions will make this very difficult to arbitrate...........much more difficult then this time last year.

What gets me is that you refer to your opinion as "THE TRUTH" and other people's opinions are taken out of context by you and then called laughable once you take them out of context and re-worded by you to your liking.

I think this is just our point of misunderstanding/disagreement. My POV was from 2004 til now... in which I said that the franchise is worth more. Especially after the addition of two allstar players and the maturation of Smoove on the heels of the Celtics playoffs.

Your POV was based on the economic climate of last year til this year.

In my world, economics run in 5 year cycles. What I mean by that is that over the next 5 years, the markets will have reversed themselves and everything would be back to what we once were or slightly lower. So, to just take a view of what has happened in really the last 6 months don't change the fact that the Hawks franchise over the past 5 years have increased..from being worth $150 Million to 300 Million.

Now, I don't pretend to know what figure Belkin is claiming the deal to be worth. I say you give him his 70 Million and tell him to take a walk. I mean, jeez, he only paid 20-30 million right? He hasn't put in on any of the cash infusions and therefore, he shouldn't be privy to the gains that the team have made. He's a millstone around the neck of our franchise.

[coachx]

I think this is just our point of misunderstanding/disagreement. My POV was from 2004 til now... in which I said that the franchise is worth more. Especially after the addition of two allstar players and the maturation of Smoove on the heels of the Celtics playoffs.

Your POV was based on the economic climate of last year til this year.

In my world, economics run in 5 year cycles. What I mean by that is that over the next 5 years, the markets will have reversed themselves and everything would be back to what we once were or slightly lower. So, to just take a view of what has happened in really the last 6 months don't change the fact that the Hawks franchise over the past 5 years have increased..from being worth $150 Million to 300 Million.

Now, I don't pretend to know what figure Belkin is claiming the deal to be worth. I say you give him his 70 Million and tell him to take a walk. I mean, jeez, he only paid 20-30 million right? He hasn't put in on any of the cash infusions and therefore, he shouldn't be privy to the gains that the team have made. He's a millstone around the neck of our franchise.

Cool, I agree with that. It was a misunderstanding.

[lifelong]

Belkin is right, the franchise value has increased. Simply by having more nationally televised games, the revenue has increased. Not to mention Jerseys of JJ, Smoove, HOrf, and now Bibbs.

having more nationally televised games has no effect on revenue. the nba evenly splits the national tv rights fees. what increases revenue is having a good team, which leads to more ticket sales and potentially nationally televised games, not the other way around. the nba also splits merchandise revenue equally. Link