No Marvin, no problem? Hawks' road test against Cavs is barometer...

[HAWKS1986]

One road game may or may not tell the whole story, but after having a very successful homestand-- the best since the late 1970's-- without their former number one draft choice Marvin Williams may give us a bigger indication that the chemistry is much better without MW receiving starter's minutes.

The Cavs are the best in the league right now with a great home record. It will be interesting to see how the Hawks respond to this road test. This team has proven they can adjust after slow starts and come back and beat teams--good teams (i.e. Utah, Portland, New Orleans, Dallas etc..)

The Hawks were dominant during the homestand winning by an average of twelve points! With Marvin playing his usual minutes as a starter, there would have been more nailbiters and bad losses that shouldn't have happened.

To me, the Cavs have always been beatable, but the lack of chemistry and execution on offense had always been an Achilles heel.

It's not exclusively about whether Maurice Evans is better than MW, but does the team execute their offense better without MW period...

There had been opposing theories that say people are all wrong about Marvin, but a team without Marvin getting significant minutes means a more happier Josh, a more effective Horford, a more productive JJ and mixing in the contributions of Zaza, Maurice and 6th man of the year nominee Flip Murray means the Hawks are better team with the unit they have playing right now.

[buckeye242424]

One road game may or may not tell the whole story, but after having a very successful homestand-- the best since the late 1970's-- without their former number one draft choice Marvin Williams may give us a bigger indication that the chemistry is much better without MW receiving starter's minutes.

The Cavs are the best in the league right now with a great home record. It will be interesting to see how the Hawks respond to this road test. This team has proven they can adjust after slow starts and come back and beat teams--good teams (i.e. Utah, Portland, New Orleans, Dallas etc..)

The Hawks were dominant during the homestand winning by an average of twelve points! With Marvin playing his usual minutes as a starter, there would have been more nailbiters and bad losses that shouldn't have happened.

To me, the Cavs have always been beatable, but the lack of chemistry and execution on offense had always been an Achilles heel.

It's not exclusively about whether Maurice Evans is better than MW, but does the team execute their offense better without MW period...

There had been opposing theories that say people are all wrong about Marvin, but a team without Marvin getting significant minutes means a more happier Josh, a more effective Horford, a more productive JJ and mixing in the contributions of Zaza, Maurice and 6th man of the year nominee Flip Murray means the Hawks are better team with the unit they have playing right now.

Should be an exciting game. Late in the season, against the best team in the East, arguably the league. I expect the Hawks to treat it like it's a preview of the second round of the playoffs and play as such. It's a true test to see if we have finally reached where we want to be as a team. It's a GREAT time to be a Hawks fan. Everyone on this board should be ecstatic about what's currently going on with the Hawks. It's fun.

[macdaddy]

Honestly I think what we are really seeing is that the team needed a change in dynamics and Marvin being out gave them that. I think we will be even tougher when he comes back.

When we made our big run against Dallas we had a lot of the 2nd team guys in. It gave us the burst of energy we needed. I think our usual starting 5 just got in a serious rut in february and weren't concentrating on what they needed to do to win. The few games before Marvin went down guys were starting to pick it up and when he went out I think they buckled down.

[crimedog]

I'm not one who thinks that the team is better without Marv. I do think though, that if he were up to it, we would be a better team with him off the bench. Not because I think he doesn't deserve to start, but just because the way our team is structured, his talents aren't as crucial in the starting lineup. Mo's offense is running the break or spreading the floor. Period. Marv can shoot but he gets a solid chunk of his points from slashing in the half court but in our starting lineup, we don't need him doing that as much. Since his offense can be divided up among the other starters easier than some other guys' and his defense, while good, isn't lockdown, it would give us one of the most dangerous and versatile benches in the league if we had Flip-Marv-Zaza as the bench squad.

Of course, I said "if he were up to it" because I'm not sure he would be. Not that he has an ego and would protest, the opposite actually, I think his confidence gets hurt too easily and a percieved "demotion" could definitely do that.

[exodus]

The Hawks were dominant during the homestand winning by an average of twelve points! With Marvin playing his usual minutes as a starter, there would have been more nailbiters and bad losses that shouldn't have happened.

Anyone who makes up a hypothetical scenario and states his opinion on what would have happened as a fact is clueless. You don't know what would have happened any more than you know tomorrow's lottery numbers.

[Admin]

I'm not one who thinks that the team is better without Marv. I do think though, that if he were up to it, we would be a better team with him off the bench. Not because I think he doesn't deserve to start, but just because the way our team is structured, his talents aren't as crucial in the starting lineup. Mo's offense is running the break or spreading the floor. Period. Marv can shoot but he gets a solid chunk of his points from slashing in the half court but in our starting lineup, we don't need him doing that as much. Since his offense can be divided up among the other starters easier than some other guys' and his defense, while good, isn't lockdown, it would give us one of the most dangerous and versatile benches in the league if we had Flip-Marv-Zaza as the bench squad.

Of course, I said "if he were up to it" because I'm not sure he would be. Not that he has an ego and would protest, the opposite actually, I think his confidence gets hurt too easily and a percieved "demotion" could definitely do that.

I never thought that I'd agree with bringing Marvin off the bench and right now we're pretty euphoric over the win streak but I'm loving having Mo in there to be able to take some of the defensive pressure off of Joe. Don't get me wrong Marvin is a terrific defender but he's not as capable of defending guards as Mo is and it seems like our defense against the guards has gotten much better since Marvin was more of a 3-4 defender and Mo is more of a 1-3 defender. With Joe being able to defend 1-3 it's almost like the defense has switched from being more front court oriented to backcourt oriented. Does it seem like that to anyone else?

I have thought this season that if Marvin were able to get more shots that he'd put up big numbers and maybe bringing him off the bench is the way to get those attempts. Put him out there with my new hero Flip and we'd be a pretty solid 2nd unit.

[crimedog]

I never thought that I'd agree with bringing Marvin off the bench and right now we're pretty euphoric over the win streak but I'm loving having Mo in there to be able to take some of the defensive pressure off of Joe. Don't get me wrong Marvin is a terrific defender but he's not as capable of defending guards as Mo is and it seems like our defense against the guards has gotten much better since Marvin was more of a 3-4 defender and Mo is more of a 1-3 defender. With Joe being able to defend 1-3 it's almost like the defense has switched from being more front court oriented to backcourt oriented. Does it seem like that to anyone else?

I have thought this season that if Marvin were able to get more shots that he'd put up big numbers and maybe bringing him off the bench is the way to get those attempts. Put him out there with my new hero Flip and we'd be a pretty solid 2nd unit.

I always thought that our interior defense was better than it was made out to be and our perimeter D was worse. We have had a lot of games where our D was just demolished by dribble penetration.

[HAWKS1986]

Anyone who makes up a hypothetical scenario and states his opinion on what would have happened as a fact is clueless. You don't know what would have happened any more than you know tomorrow's lottery numbers.

Exodus:

Each game that the Hawks play without Marvin just further proves my point or my hypothesis. This seven game home-winning streak is no fluke or anomaly. And the subsequent road tests and future home visits from the Lakers, Spurs and Celtics will test my No MW theory even more..

New formula: No MW=More ATL wins...

LOL. And you had mentioned lottery numbers, for tonight's Mega Millions: 5, 23, 28, 43,47 and 8 is Mega Ball...just for you..LOL

[buckeye242424]

Exodus:

Each game that the Hawks play without Marvin just further proves my point or my hypothesis. This seven game home-winning streak is no fluke or anomaly. And the subsequent road tests and future home visits from the Lakers, Spurs and Celtics will test my No MW theory even more..

New formula: No MW=More ATL wins...

LOL. And you had mentioned lottery numbers, for tonight's Mega Millions: 5, 23, 28, 43,47 and 8 is Mega Ball...just for you..LOL

We don't know if "No MW = More ATL wins"...it can't be proven. You never know, we could have won all of these games with Marvin in the line-up. Moreover, we could have won these games even more dominantly with Marvin in the line-up. Though I agree it appears our chemistry has been better of late, you still can't conclude that we're better without Marvin. It's a common denominator, and a debatable issue obviously, but to say without hesitation that we are better w/o Marvin can't be justified.

[exodus]

Exodus:

Each game that the Hawks play without Marvin just further proves my point or my hypothesis. This seven game home-winning streak is no fluke or anomaly. And the subsequent road tests and future home visits from the Lakers, Spurs and Celtics will test my No MW theory even more..

New formula: No MW=More ATL wins...

LOL. And you had mentioned lottery numbers, for tonight's Mega Millions: 5, 23, 28, 43,47 and 8 is Mega Ball...just for you..LOL

Since you obviously forgot i should mention that the Hawks had another long home stand this year. they went 7-1, their lone loss being a tight game to Boston. JJ wasn't on a 30 pt run at that time and Smith was gimpy from his ankle injury.

Mo hasn't done anything as a starter. He is averaging less than 8ppg as a starter. Who are the high scoring wing players that the Hawks have faced during this homestand? The only one i can remember is Roy and he scored at will.

A Mavs fan could say that the Mavs would have definitely won last night with Dampier. Would they be right or would they stupidly stating an opinion as a fact?

[HAWKS1986]

Since you obviously forgot i should mention that the Hawks had another long home stand this year. they went 7-1, their lone loss being a tight game to Boston. JJ wasn't on a 30 pt run at that time and Smith was gimpy from his ankle injury.

Mo hasn't done anything as a starter. He is averaging less than 8ppg as a starter. Who are the high scoring wing players that the Hawks have faced during this homestand? The only one i can remember is Roy and he scored at will.

A Mavs fan could say that the Mavs would have definitely won last night with Dampier. Would they be right or would they stupidly stating an opinion as a fact?

Exodus:

Let's compare homestands: In December ( I assume that is what you are talking about) the Hawks did win a string of games, but it was against lesser competition.. a win is a win of course, but look at the minutes Marvin played during that stretch..on average less than TWENTY MINUTES... Second Marvin theory.. Less MW minutes(<20)=Hawks win

This recent homestand was against all the young stars from the Western Conference (Deron, Paul, Roy mixed in with teams the Hawks had historically trouble against under Woodson and throughout this decade with (i.e. Dirk's Mavs and Rip's Pistons..)

Hawks won by double digit margins against the West's best WITHOUT MARVIN...This team faced in-game adversity, adjusted and was able to run away with games in the fourth quarter...This team was finding ways to win with the guys they had on the floor... if Marvin was in there at crunch time, the Hawks chances of winning would have been more compromised..

Exodus, your contempt for Maurice Evans' play is well noted... I would rather have a Corey Maggette over a Maurice Evans..Maggette gets to the FT line nearly 10 times a game thus putting pressure on opposing defenses, doesn't get the ball stripped while attacking the basket (unlike Marvin) and isn't tentative in taking three point shots, and he is an adequate defender...

[Dsinner]

Anyone who makes up a hypothetical scenario and states his opinion on what would have happened as a fact is clueless.

Or they're posting on a message board. There would be no point having a message board if we didn't feel X would happen if we just added Y or subtracted Z. If you'd rather just get Hawks news feel free to jump on over to Hawksdotcom. Or if you'd only like to only hear your personal beliefs I'd suggest staying away from the internet entirely.

[TheTrueSiete]

Surprised I haven't seen Diesel chiming in...

7

[exodus]

Exodus:

This recent homestand was against all the young stars from the Western Conference (Deron, Paul, Roy mixed in with teams the Hawks had historically trouble against under Woodson and throughout this decade with (i.e. Dirk's Mavs and Rip's Pistons..)

In case you forgot the Hawks beat NOH for the first time in november with Paul playing. Marvin played too and hit all of his 3s.

Dirks Mavs were missing two starters and Rips Pistons aren't that good. In fact they are now below .500.

The Jazz are 13-20 on the road and they were playing the 2nd game of a back to back when they faced us. That is why Vegas had the Hawks as a 4 pt favorite.

Portland is 15-20 on the road and they were missing Oden. Agian the Hawks were favored in that game.

if Marvin was in there at crunch time, the Hawks chances of winning would have been more compromised

I guess you forgot all the clutch 3s Marvin has hit this year, including the one to ice the victory at NO. He also hit the go ahead 3 in Boston early this season with only 7 seconds left in the game.

Exodus, your contempt for Maurice Evans' play is well noted

Evans is just a decent role player. That is all. he can't finish inside for crap or score off the dribble. He gets backdoored constantly on defense, although it has happened less lately.

Maggette gets to the FT line nearly 10 times a game thus putting pressure on opposing defenses, doesn't get the ball stripped while attacking the basket (unlike Marvin) and isn't tentative in taking three point shots, and he is an adequate defender

Maggette averages over twice as many turnovers as Marvin (who gets to the line as much as JJ in far fewer touches). Maggette shoots 25% from 3 so maybe he should be more tentative from 3.

Maggette has never been considered a good defender his entire career and in fact nearly got into a fight with Crawford this year when Crawford challenged to put some effort into something other than scoring.

By all means keep posting and exposing your ignorance.

[exodus]

Or they're posting on a message board. There would be no point having a message board if we didn't feel X would happen if we just added Y or subtracted Z. If you'd rather just get Hawks news feel free to jump on over to Hawksdotcom. Or if you'd only like to only hear your personal beliefs I'd suggest staying away from the internet entirely.

I have no problem with people stating opinions. What i have a problem with is people stating their opinions as facts. obviously you don't understand the difference.

[Diesel]

We don't know if "No MW = More ATL wins"...it can't be proven. You never know, we could have won all of these games with Marvin in the line-up. Moreover, we could have won these games even more dominantly with Marvin in the line-up. Though I agree it appears our chemistry has been better of late, you still can't conclude that we're better without Marvin. It's a common denominator, and a debatable issue obviously, but to say without hesitation that we are better w/o Marvin can't be justified.

I think the bigger statement is that we're not struggling without Marvin.

If you take a wheel off of your car, you expect it to be a bumpy ride... Regardless of where you go.

Well, we've taken Marvin off our roster and we have experienced success. Better success than we've had all year.... Home or not. Even if you decide to attribute the success to other factors, the loss of Marvin has not been experienced. For everyone that says Marvin is a very good defensive players... We lost Marvin and our defense is playing better than it ever did.

[exodus]

I think the bigger statement is that we're not struggling without Marvin.

If you take a wheel off of your car, you expect it to be a bumpy ride... Regardless of where you go.

Well, we've taken Marvin off our roster and we have experienced success. Better success than we've had all year.... Home or not. Even if you decide to attribute the success to other factors, the loss of Marvin has not been experienced. For everyone that says Marvin is a very good defensive players... We lost Marvin and our defense is playing better than it ever did.

The Hawks obviously aren't missing Childress either, and there is a much bigger sample size to go on there.

[cam1218]

Ah, I guess I'll chime in too. I was watching Hawks Live! after the first game on the homestand-- Pistons game and they were talking to Flip about why the team seemed to play better. He said after the Charlotte game the whole team and coaching staff game together and had a long meeting. He didn't go into specifics but said they spent a long time getting on the same page. He said their goal was to win out and if we are going to do that we have to win tonight. I really believe that has more to do with us playing better than anything else. The Charlotte and New York away games seemed to really wake us up. I think our team looked at themselves in the mirror and asked them if they really want to play? This is their answer.

I feel bad for Marvin. I don't think we are playing better because he isn't playing, it just kind of happened at a bad time. We could've lost Marvin during that road trip and people would be talking about how bad our team is playing without him. It really goes both ways. That said, I'm all for Marvin coming off the bench. Why not give it a try? If having Mo in the starting lineup works then don't break it. Marvin is a better player than Mo, end of story, but sometimes we could use more balance in our rotations. We have a solid starting 5 even with Mo in the lineup so why not add more depth to the bench? Marvin, Flip, and Zaza would be a pretty nice trio to have waiting to come in and play.

[Diesel]

The Hawks obviously aren't missing Childress either, and there is a much bigger sample size to go on there.

We replaced Childress. We removed Marvin. There's a big difference in the two.

[exodus]

We replaced Childress. We removed Marvin. There's a big difference in the two.

The difference is about 60 games.

The Hawks have won 2 road games without Marvin. Not impressed.