Please Prepare to Flame Me- My Take on the Hawks

[AScentCalledZaza]

I am not a basketball expert, as many of you are, but I am a Hawks fan, and have been since I first went to a game at a young age.

So keep this in mind as you read this.

It's kinda long, but I hope you will read it an open mind.

I think we have some issues on this team, and while many are a function of coaching, even more are a function of our over-abundance of talent.

I personally think the Hawks have the most talent of any team this side of the Lakers. The problem is it is young talent, and is therefore very raw.

I have seen games where our three young guys, Al, Marvin and Josh have absolutely torn it up. At the same time, it rarely is a consistent thing.

It certainly helps to have coaching that helps you improve as a player off the court, but I think ultimately the only way to develop a player is to give them the ball.

We have too many people to give the ball to.

On the other hand, we run our offense through Joe Johnson, and while he is a great player, we far too often live or die on him being able to score on double teams. I realize it is his M.O. but I think he is too quiet to be the true leader of this team, which needs one badly (for the long-term).

What I would do

1. Either get an assistant who specifically designs offensive plays for us, or get rid of Woodson and pick up Avery Johnson.

I say this with less enthusiasm than many people on this board, because he stuck around while we were garbage, and certainly has improved the record every single year he has been coach. However, I am really disturbed by what seems to be a lack of respect some of our players seem to have for him, which is terrible for team chemistry. Also, I think he is possibly retarding the growth of some of our younger guys, and aside from Flip, has seemed very conservative in his use of the bench (before Marvin went down). I think Avery Johnson could bring some needed discipline to our team, and could possibly help Acie Law learn the position at PG, with help from Flip and Bibby (if we keep him)

2. Use this starting line-up

SG- Mario West

PG- Mike Bibby (with the goal of phasing-in Acie Law)

SF- Marvin Williams

PF- Josh Smith

C- Al Horford

I know alot of people are like WTF about the SG part. Personally, I think we should start Mario West for a specific reason. I want us to run our offense through Marvin Williams. I really think this young cat has the tools to be a very versatile weapon for us, as he seems keep improving in all aspects of his game, and is very impressive when he shows aggression. Not having Joe in establishes Marvin as the primary shot tacker, a role I think he could soon thrive in. Also, putting Mario in gives us an aggressive defensive presence, and opens up the offense for our other guys to take more shots. Basically addition by subtraction, as we have seen when one of our forewards goes down.

Here is where it gets tricky. Mario starts, but gets fewer minutes than Joe. In fact, Joe gets near starter minutes. Mario is used more as decoy who adds a few free fouls, and due to not being much of a scoring threat, routes the defensive pressure away from the SG spot early in the game. I think this could be a very helpful thing for Joe mentally, who sometimes seems to buckle under the pressure of being the primary scoring option every quarter, and seems to me like he would be best served as being second man in a tandem, rather than carrying the team alone, and us running ISO after ISO. To me, Joe seems to usually heat it up later on in the game, when he goes in attack mode.

Our goal would be to become a team that plays an offense based on match-ups. Depending on who we play, we would increase the scoring duties of Horford and Josh Smith, and eventually Acie Law. I think he is a good passer right now, which is pretty basic positive attribute for a PG, and as we develop him, we would bring him along as a more aggressive (and accurate) playmaker, in the vein of a Rondo or Devin Harris.

Ideally, we would know before hand, having scouted the opposing team, what position they are weak against, and essentially "activate" person, telling them they are needed to step up, knowing that as soon as they try to send help shut them down we massacre them with Joe.

I know this is a game of streakiness, and if we have a player or two that is in a funk offensively, we have enough talent to "deactivate" them for a while, and put the ball in somebody else's hands.

Of course this largely hinges on whether Joe would feel comfortable essentially being a starter, who doesn't play the opening minutes.

I actually think I prefer this to Marvin coming off the bench, because I am growing to like the match-ups we get with Horford at C, and am not ready to trust Josh's potential jumpshots at small foreward. Also, I think this works out better because Joe being pretty much fully developed at his style of play, opens up the offense for both Marvin and Josh to get into a rhythm early, while Marvin coming off the bench might need to get warmed up a bit more, and depending on what we are doing at the moment, could potentially deprive us of Josh's defense.

I love that Joe is a classic Mr. Everything, a guy who has range enough to do it all, and i really want for Marvin to be put into a position where he can develop into the same sort of player, especially with how well he was shooting threes for a certain time earlier in the season.

For Josh, I would hope Avery would take a special interest in him and work on rebuilding his jump shot from scratch, and give specific times to show-off his freakish natural ability.

For Acie, I'd hope Avery would straight up develop him into a solid PG with range, as I don't think with the talent we have he'd need to a superhero like Chris Paul, but would greatly contribute as a solid 3 pt. shooter.

For Horford, work on his fluidity and being more consistently aggressive in the low post.

Mario as a starter should just be good enough to be counted on to sink them when he's wide open, and he won't be looked at much offensively in our scheme.

And of course everybody work on free throws (we are weird that way)

Oh and Bibby walks with our utmost thanks, so we can afford to re-sign Marvin and Flip.

For those of you who lasted this long, my thanks. What do you think? I am open to constructive criticism, as, like I have said before, I likely don't know as much about basketball as you.

[coachx]

Good luck telling JJ he is being benched for West. He would demand a trade or walk away for nothing in FA.

I do like the thought though. Gray Mule brought up starting West a few months ago. I think I would prefer to bring Marvin (as to JJ) off the bench with Flip, Mo, and ZaZa, to form a strong 2nd unit that can score.

Marvin is a team guy who would except that role. After all, he did just that at UNC.

Edited April 1, 2009 by coachx

[Brotha2ThaNite]

Good luck telling JJ he is being benched for West. He would demand a trade or walk away for nothing in FA.

I do like the thought though. Gray Mule brought up starting West a few months ago. I think I would prefer to bring Marvin (as to JJ) off the bench with Flip, Mo, and ZaZa, to form a strong 2nd unit that can score.

Marvin is a team guy who would except that role. After all, he did just that at UNC.

I'm with you. I was with him until I saw that West would start over JJ. As much as JJ's bad games get to me I would never bench him for a full season. lol

I would maybe bench him to let him know he needs to get his act together like everyone likes to see Woody do to Smoove.

I also, believe we should run our offense through Marvin. This will take a lot of the double team off of JJ to get better shots.

The one thing that gets me the most is Woody and our school yard offense. I must admit when Law does get to play I see him call more plays then Bibby.

I also hate watching us play defense without talking to each other. That just kills me.

GET WOODY OUT!

That's my 1cents :smile:

[AScentCalledZaza]

Joe would be coming off the bench, but it would still be him getting starter minutes.

The goal would be for us to get our young, less experienced guys into to game early, as they would be forced to drive the offense without Joe there as a security blanket.

A defensive, non-scoring SG West increases the offensive duties of every other player, and could be helpful to disorient the opposing team once our extremely capable multi-range SG Johnson comes in, and it also reduces the pressure placed upon him, as he seems to too often disappear early in the game, as though he is just accepting his fate of being double teamed until he knows he absolutely must produce in order for us to win.

[buckeye242424]

Joe would be coming off the bench, but it would still be him getting starter minutes.

The goal would be for us to get our young, less experienced guys into to game early, as they would be forced to drive the offense without Joe there as a security blanket.

A defensive, non-scoring SG West increases the offensive duties of every other player, and could be helpful to disorient the opposing team once our extremely capable multi-range SG Johnson comes in, and it also reduces the pressure placed upon him, as he seems to too often disappear early in the game, as though he is just accepting his fate of being double teamed until he knows he absolutely must produce in order for us to win.

It's good in theory, but there's an absolute zero chance Joe Johnson would agree to come off the bench in favor or Rio. Starter minutes or not, there's something to be said about starting a game. As long as JJ is in a Hawks uni, he will be starting.

[NineOhTheRino]

I would love to see what Joe could do playing with an effective PG. Not saying that Bibby is the root of his problems but Bibby's inability to get Joe easy looks does hurt him late in games. Notice how hard Joe has to work to get a decent shot off? After 3 quarters of constant dribbling and coming off lazy screens by our bigs Joe is dead tired in the 4th.

Edited April 1, 2009 by NineOhTheRino

[crimedog]

I'm not sure JJ should be the one coming off the bench. This team isn't developmental any more. I see more rationale for Marv coming off the bench as a verastile super-sub. The problem with running an offense through Marv, especially our offense, is that Marv is a terrible facilitator and our offense requires the person who is iso-ing every other possession to be able to make good passes.

As far as benching Joe when he plays poorly. Yeah, definitely. I think that beyond whatever on-court effects it would have, it would do wonders for the psyche of the rest of the team. I've mentioned before that one of the things I've read about why players like Popp is because he holds all his players equally accountable. He's willing to rip into Duncan and bench Duncan (and on the rare occasions its deserved, Duncan is willing to take it) and the other players on the team appreciate this. That is why Parker never took Popp's riding him too seriously and that is a reason that vets are willing to go to SAS on the cheap, because they know they'll be treated fairly.

It seems to me that one of the reasons Woody has clashed with certain players in the past (Zaza, AJ, Josh, and Diaw specifically) is because he doesn't hold all his players to the same standard and some, Josh, feel like they are singled out and others, AJ, don't feel like they're given the same opportunities as comparable players.

[coachx]

I would love to see what Joe could do playing with an effective PG. Not saying that Bibby is the root of his problems but Bibby's inability to get Joe easy looks does hurt him late in games. Notice how hard Joe has to work to get a decent shot off? After 3 quarters of constant dribbling and coming off lazy screens by our bigs Joe is dead tired in the 4th.

Not to mention he burns extra energy having to guard all the elite PGs too.

I wish he could go back to playing off the ball more too....like he did with Nash in Phoneix........of course he would still be the #1 scoring option.

Like you said, with Bibby its not possible. The roles get reversed. Its JJ handling the ball and Bibby playing off the ball......which works quite well when Bibby's shot is falling.

[crimedog]

Not to mention he burns extra energy having to guard all the elite PGs too.

I wish he could go back to playing off the ball more too....like he did with Nash in Phoneix........of course he would still be the #1 scoring option.

Like you said, with Bibby its not possible. The roles get reversed. Its JJ handling the ball and Bibby playing off the ball......which works quite well when Bibby's shot is falling.

I don't think thats entirely true. Remember once upon a time we ran the pick and roll with Bibby and Josh/Al and found success in that? Joe can definitely play off the ball there, for some reason we never devoted ourselves to that as a staple of the offense and we have more or less completely abondoned it lately.

[frosgrim]

I don't think thats entirely true. Remember once upon a time we ran the pick and roll with Bibby and Josh/Al and found success in that? Joe can definitely play off the ball there, for some reason we never devoted ourselves to that as a staple of the offense and we have more or less completely abondoned it lately.

For me, its the lack of a post game from either Smith or Horford that really hurts this team. The question is, do either of those guys have it in them, or is it the offensive scheme that is keeping them from getting consitent looks on the low block?

With a consistent post game, JJ & Bibby would get easier looks from the floor and JJ wouldn't have to dribble himself to death.

In respone to the original post: I would never bench JJ in favor of West. Rio is a nice energy guy, but he doesn't need to start. Second, you can still run the offense through Marvin early in the game. In fact, having JJ on the floor should make it EASIER for Marvin to score because defenses won't be focused on him. What needs to happen with Marvin is that he just has to decide to be a little selfish and take his shots. An aggressive Marvin is a good Marvin.

I am all for finding an upgrade for the HC. As far as I am concerned that can't happen soon enough.

[buckeye242424]

For me, its the lack of a post game from either Smith or Horford that really hurts this team. The question is, do either of those guys have it in them, or is it the offensive scheme that is keeping them from getting consitent looks on the low block?

With a consistent post game, JJ & Bibby would get easier looks from the floor and JJ wouldn't have to dribble himself to death.

In respone to the original post: I would never bench JJ in favor of West. Rio is a nice energy guy, but he doesn't need to start. Second, you can still run the offense through Marvin early in the game. In fact, having JJ on the floor should make it EASIER for Marvin to score because defenses won't be focused on him. What needs to happen with Marvin is that he just has to decide to be a little selfish and take his shots. An aggressive Marvin is a good Marvin.

I am all for finding an upgrade for the HC. As far as I am concerned that can't happen soon enough.

I think it's a combination of both. Smoove and Horford's lack of development in the post reflects the coaching, negatively I might add. Do they have the potential to have an effective post game...? Absolutely. With the proper instruction, both those guys could improve their post games. The offensive scheme, or lackthereof, also hinders their development.

[tgunzz]

Here's the problem with this strategy, starting Mario would cause us to be a more perimeter oriented team. The player guarding Mario would just sag into the lane disrupting our low post game, any penatration and would double the ball everytime. He would essentially be a rover. This would put more pressure on our outside game which we all know doesn't always makes the trip to the arena. Teams would attack this early and force Joe in the game sooner than you would like. So why not start him and bring Mario off the bench more frequently for instant energy.

Also, I think the offense should be run through Al. Al is definitely not the best offensive player on the team, but he generally makes good decisions with the ball and is a low post scorer. If Al has his low post game going, the other team would have to commit to a double team. If not, at the very least, they would have to sag into the lane for help defense. In either case, there is less presure on the outside, helping Joe, Bibby, Marvin to get easier shots. This could be run through Josh, but he hasn't fully commited to a low post game and we know his decision making isn't the best.

Also, you would never get Joe to agree to this. He would be out of here like Jay Cutler. You can't bring the best player on your team off the bench.

[LOL_Hawks]

JJ off the bench?

Hotlanta, is that you? :P

All jokes aside, I do agree with the sentiment: Mario needs more minutes. His defensive impact on games has definitely been apparent as of late. It would be a huge help if Mario went from "Mr. 10 Seconds" to just a regular member of the rotation.

[crimedog]

For me, its the lack of a post game from either Smith or Horford that really hurts this team. The question is, do either of those guys have it in them, or is it the offensive scheme that is keeping them from getting consitent looks on the low block?

With a consistent post game, JJ & Bibby would get easier looks from the floor and JJ wouldn't have to dribble himself to death.

In respone to the original post: I would never bench JJ in favor of West. Rio is a nice energy guy, but he doesn't need to start. Second, you can still run the offense through Marvin early in the game. In fact, having JJ on the floor should make it EASIER for Marvin to score because defenses won't be focused on him. What needs to happen with Marvin is that he just has to decide to be a little selfish and take his shots. An aggressive Marvin is a good Marvin.

I am all for finding an upgrade for the HC. As far as I am concerned that can't happen soon enough.

Josh's low post game has really come a long way. I feel more comfortable with him in the low post than I do with him on the perimeter, although I think he's just devastating from the high post.

Al seems to be less useful as a pure low post player but he's strong enough that if he gets the ball really deep, he can usually do something or get fouled.

[Dsinner]

Like you said, with Bibby its not possible. The roles get reversed. Its JJ handling the ball and Bibby playing off the ball......which works quite well when Bibby's shot is falling.

See, I'm more inclined to think because of our offense scheme (I laugh when I say that) Bibby's isn't allowed to try and be a real PG. Bibby, actually has decent court awareness (he's no Nash) but because JJ dominates the ball so much he rarely gets to show it. We'll never be major continders as long as we are in this offense because once the playoffs start and the games slows and the D picks up we'll be lucky to get 70. That's not going to cut it. Even if we had a Nash type PG I'm not sure Woody would know how to use him.

[DrReality]

To really have an offense. Awesome. Sund needs to make this happen.

By his own admission Woody is a defensive guy. He needs to give up the offense and if we brought someone in he could be the 'lady in waiting' if Woody continues to crap out.